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Thread: Everything Tanking ;) Raptor still have a long shot at 3rd worst record...

  1. #121
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ogitheserb wrote: View Post
    we still have a chance to get to #5! We have to lose every game from now on, most importantly to Cleveland and NJ. Cleveland still has Washington to play, so that would even out our records.
    First, Toronto doesn't play Cleveland again this year. Toronto plays Miami (no Wade or Bosh), Detroit, Milwaukee and New Jersey.

    Second, given the remaining schedule, I find it more likely that Toronto will wind up in the 6th spot heading into the lottery. I seriously doubt either Sacramento or Cleveland will win more than 1 game each, leaving them in the #4/5 spots. If Toronto loses all 4 games, they would secure the #6 spot, meaning they could draft 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th...

    CURRENT WINS & REMAINING GAMES
    7 - Charlotte (will finish #1)
    15 - Washington (will finish #2)
    19 - New Orleans (Memphis, Houston, LAC, Golden State, Houston)
    20 - Sacramento (San Antonio, Oklahoma, Charlotte, Oklahoma, LAL)
    20 - Cleveland (Philadelphia, NY, San Antonio, Memphis, Washington, Chicago)
    22 - Toronto (Miami, Detroit, Milwaukee, NJ)
    22 - New Jersey (NY, Milwaukee, Philadelphia, Toronto)
    22 - Golden State (LAL, Dallas, Houston, Minnesota, New Orleans, San Antonio)
    23 - Detroit (Atlanta, Minnesota, Toronto, Indiana, Philadelphia)

  2. #122
    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Just some opinions on tanking.

  3. #123
    Raptors Republic All-Star stretch's Avatar
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    Henry Abbott is the opinion that hits the nail on the head for me with tanking and paying customers paying to see "bad teams trying to be bad," but then Abbott has been labeled a "douchebag" (?????) by our illustrious super moderator.

  4. #124
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    Henry Abbott is the opinion that hits the nail on the head for me with tanking and paying customers paying to see "bad teams trying to be bad," but then Abbott has been labeled a "douchebag" (?????) by our illustrious super moderator.
    Yes and the context in which the comment was made can be found here:

    http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...l=1#post124311

    I stand by the comment. If the larger and more desirable markets were in the draft this year, the tanking drum beat would not be this loud. As I showed in the comment above, just about every single playoff team has been built through the draft lottery.

    Given the system - especially for small market teams - to build a winning team you need talent and the best way to get talent is through the draft lottery.

    Henry Abbott's opinion doesn't factor in ever getting out of the cellar. Does a paying fan continue to support a team stuck in purgatory with little chance of ever getting out?

    Sometimes to take a step forward you need to take one or two back. Being competitive year in and year out (just missing playoffs or first round exit) is really admirable. Unfortunately, professional sports are not played to be competitive - they are played to be won.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed Apr 18th, 2012 at 08:03 PM. Reason: draft "lottery" added to clarify

  5. #125
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default What about the flip side of tanking?

    What do people think about the HEAT resting players for "maintenance" as was seen tonight with Bosh and Wade sitting?

    The Spurs do it as well.

    I can't find the tweet with the quote from Gregg Popovich but he essentially said, "Teams should win for themselves so what another team does is irrelevant."

    He mentioned the idea of the paying fan not seeing the top players but his response was (paraphrasing): "I am doing what is in the best interests of the team. My job is to win and I do what I have to do to get there."


    My opinion: teams at the top are going to do what they need to do to win. Teams at the bottom are going to do the same. The difference is good teams resting starters/better players are looking at the immediate future and bad teams 'resting' starters/better players are looking long term.


    Bringing it back to the original post, I still think the current set up is the best balance of getting talent to struggling franchises while not automatically rewarding the worst team with the best pick. But that is just this super moderator's illustrious opinion, lol.

  6. #126
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    Henry Abbott is the opinion that hits the nail on the head for me with tanking and paying customers paying to see "bad teams trying to be bad," but then Abbott has been labeled a "douchebag" (?????) by our illustrious super moderator.
    i find abbot to have the most company friendly and player friendly opinion of anybody on espn. his articles are garbage to me. if you read through his archive he has miami' balls with the shaft way down in his stomach. new york is another team he is always arguing in favour of. if lebron were to piss anywhere he wanted abbot would explain to everyone why he was allowed to and how we should mop it up.

  7. #127
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What do people think about the HEAT resting players for "maintenance" as was seen tonight with Bosh and Wade sitting?

    The Spurs do it as well.

    I can't find the tweet with the quote from Gregg Popovich but he essentially said, "Teams should win for themselves so what another team does is irrelevant."

    He mentioned the idea of the paying fan not seeing the top players but his response was (paraphrasing): "I am doing what is in the best interests of the team. My job is to win and I do what I have to do to get there."


    My opinion: teams at the top are going to do what they need to do to win. Teams at the bottom are going to do the same. The difference is good teams resting starters/better players are looking at the immediate future and bad teams 'resting' starters/better players are looking long term.


    Bringing it back to the original post, I still think the current set up is the best balance of getting talent to struggling franchises while not automatically rewarding the worst team with the best pick. But that is just this super moderator's illustrious opinion, lol.
    I don't have a problem with teams resting star players. As for fans wanting to see superstars: Newsflash, basketball is a team sport. If you wanna see 1-man shows, try tennis.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  8. #128
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote stretch wrote: View Post
    If the NBA would get rid of the draft it would fix this bizarro NBA where losing is a positive.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...itch-the-draft
    If you get rid of the draft, you also have to fold about 15 teams or you will have a European soccer league.

  9. #129
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    If you get rid of the draft, you also have to fold about 15 teams or you will have a European soccer league.
    Not to mention the fact that losing teams will ALWAYS be losers.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  10. #130
    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    I'd go for a no draft league but with a cba that has a hard cap with a max 3-4 yr guaranteed money. I'd even think about no max/min salary for individual players. Stockpiling of the best would become onerous and players will either take large cuts to play with their fellow best or play for teams who have the cap space and pay the going/market rate for the star. If the objective is the spread of talent this should work. I doubt though that the PA would go for this...something about having their cake and....

  11. #131
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    Chisolm's take on tanking

    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=393355
    "Here's the truth: The only thing more valuable to a losing team than high picks is a winning culture."

  12. #132
    Raptors Republic All-Star Puffer's Avatar
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    Great article. I am with this 100%

  13. #133
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Default Fixing Tanking

    So HoopIdea has done a whole thing on tanking (perhaps sparked by J. Van Gundy's recent comments) and it reminded me of the article Liston posted a while back about how to fix the NBA's CLEAR tanking problem.

    I mean, it's going on this year as badly as ever (which is saying something -- see article below) and regardless of how you feel about tanking as a raptors fan, it is a problem. I'm not going to get into the pros and cons of tanking from the Raptors perspective, that's obviously been WELL covered on these forums. What I'm more interested in is, from the perspective of the league as a whole in maintaining its competitiveness and integrity....what do you do if you're Stern?

    Here's what I was thinking: have a Draft Playoffs. I haven't worked out the details really, but the basic idea is that the teams that don't make the playoffs compete (say, in the week before the real playoffs start) in a march madness-esque tournament to decide who gets the best pick. You would have to do the seeding differently so that the best teams didn't elimenate the worst teams right off the bat (you still want to favour the worst teams in some way), but ultimately, you have to earn the pick.

    This solves a few problems:
    1) The incentives for losing during the regular season are diminished -- all you're accomplishing is establishing better seeding.
    2) The pain and stupor of meaningless late season games for non-playoff teams is reduced -- there is something tangible to compete for (and, at least, your team won't be tanking).
    3) Presumably, it helps bring in more revenue for the league -- more playoff games (of whatever sort) means more money.

    Anyways, it'd be cool to here what everyone else's ideal tank-fix scenario is. And if I've completely missed something with this suggestion (which I probably have), point it out!

    At the end of the day, I want AD as much as the next person, but I'd love to do it by winning, not losing.

    (HoopIdea link: http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...tell-the-truth )

  14. #134
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    ^^^ this is the best idea I've ever heard.

  15. #135
    Raptors Republic All-Star e2thed's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    ^^^ this is the best idea I've ever heard.
    Ain't gonna happen unless teams really break tanking records like 1-81 season or something messed like that.

  16. #136
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    Quote e2thed wrote: View Post
    Ain't gonna happen unless teams really break tanking records like 1-81 season or something messed like that.
    I had just smoked a blunt to celebrate finishing my exams, I may have over exagerated a little.

  17. #137
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Oh I doubt it will happen too, but you could say that for any proposal. This is all theoretical, from-the-armchair stuff. The problem is that Stern actually changing the system means two things: 1) Admitting his first solution (i.e. 1985 invention of the lottery) was a bust. 2) Admitting teams in his league are tanking. We all saw the attitude he took during the lockout; I think the earliest a change would realistically be made is when a new commissioner takes over.

  18. #138
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    As an aside:


    Garcia and Hayes' reaction had me laughing...and scratching my head. Do individual players really care about tanking?

  19. #139
    Raptors Republic Superstar Bendit's Avatar
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    One down 2 to go. Do it for the team.

  20. #140
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Tanking Isn’t All Bad: A lot has been made recently about the decision some NBA teams make to lose games rather than win them, and last night’s elimination of the Houston Rockets is a great case study in the virtues of being average in the NBA.

    Before we go tossing Houston General Manager Daryl Morey under the bus, keep in mind that Les Alexander, the Rockets’ owner, refuses to lose games. He refuses to allow his team to drop low enough in the standings to secure those coveted top draft picks, so his team is doomed to be one game away from the lottery virtually every year.

    Not every team is a contender, and what the pundits that are bashing the idea of deliberate or planned losing are missing is that every team’s priorities are different.

    The Cleveland Cavaliers are building for tomorrow. Trading away Ramon Sessions was about opening opportunities to try on young guys at the expense of a player that was walking away in July as a free agent. Just look at what Manny Harris and Alonzo Gee have brought to the Cavs. Neither would have gotten much of a shot had the Cavs been chasing the eighth seed every year. Today they might be part of a new Cavs unit that wins playoff games in a year or two.

    Sometimes dipping low into the draft lottery is where the next great player comes from, and, as they say, ‘the cheapest talent a team ever gets is its first round draft choices’.

    Is that fair for the fans? Not likely. But riddle me this… as a fan would you rather have one crappy season and see it result in two or three players that fast track your team into serious playoff contention, or watch a mediocre team year after year?

    The issue of teams shifting to development mode and playing young guys is not a bad thing. What has become bad is when it’s the same teams over and over every year.

    Including this year, the Charlotte Bobcats have drafted in the lottery eight times in their nine-year history – their first season was 2004; they did not draft in the lottery in 2010.

    This draft will also mark the 6th straight lottery selection for the Sacramento Kings, the longest streak in the projected lottery field.

    Tanking games is not bad if it’s done for a season or two to amass the right kinds of talent to improve. When it’s the same teams year after year, it’s a sign of bigger issues.

    Not everyone is competing for a championship, so to condemn teams that are building for tomorrow is a little naive.

    The biggest knock the NBA gets from outsiders is that too many teams get into the playoffs… so if the top 16 teams is too many, why is it bad that the bottom 6 or 7 are working on improving?

    Does it stink for paying fans? Absolutely. Does it stink for the broadcast partners that pay money for the rights to games? Sure.

    But if you are a real fan of your team, wouldn’t you rather have a shot at Anthony Davis today than being in the perennial 14th slot like the Houston Rockets, who are just bad enough to miss the postseason and get another late teens level draft pick?

    Losing games isn’t always a bad thing, what tends to be the bad thing is when you lose just enough games to miss the playoffs but not enough games to get good draft picks… that’s what stinks, because Houston will miss the Playoffs and unless they trade up they will likely miss out on the eight to ten franchise-changing players that the 2012 NBA Draft could contribute. That’s been the Rockets’ biggest problem over the last handful of years.

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/nba-am-tanking-isnt-all-bad
    I think mediocrity is the worst place a team could be in the NBA. That is just my opinion though. I said this earlier in the year: it is the job of players and coaches to do everything they can to win games and it is the job of GM's to assemble a roster to compete or tank.

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