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Thread: Everything Tanking ;) Raptor still have a long shot at 3rd worst record...

  1. #81
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Right and that's not tanking. Tanking is intentionally losing. Intentionally losing comes down to the coaches players.

  2. #82
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    On the surface, yes. But Colangelo has created a situation where losing is almost expected this year. That may not be considered "tanking" per se, but it is openly accepting losses.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  3. #83
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Very interesting article.

    I think the most important point to remember is that even the most vocal members of "tank nation" on RR have never once (that I can recall) suggested that the coaching staff and/or players are losing on purpose. The "tank nation" have argued pretty much the exact points that BC conceded in that article, which is that the Raptors were/are not built for this season, but rather for next season and beyond.

    The franchise, GM and "tank nation" conceded this season as a lost cause, but the coaches/players have been putting in tremendous effort all season, for which I applaud them. I cheer for individual player evaluation and development, but my priority is adding the best possible piece via the draft, to give the team the best possible chance of winning... starting next season when they are expected to "hit the ground running".

  4. #84
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I cheer for individual player evaluation and development, but my priority is adding the best possible piece via the draft, to give the team the best possible chance of winning... starting next season when they are expected to "hit the ground running".
    Precisely. I just can't understand how some fans fail to grasp this seemingly simple concept.

    If we're going to lose anyway (something we ALL knew would happen this season), why not lose in a manner than helps us long term?
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  5. #85
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    On the surface, yes. But Colangelo has created a situation where losing is almost expected this year. That may not be considered "tanking" per se, but it is openly accepting losses.
    Casey isn't accepting loses. He's going to battle every night. It very admirable actually...

  6. #86
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Semantics. Two things: first, strawman says hello. I have never heard anyone suggest "tanking" means players and coaches intentionally throwing games. Everyone operates under the understanding that tanking involves management intentionally putting together a roster that can't win games and refusing to do things to improve the team (see: Butler, Rasual).

    Second, in utilitarian terms, the distinction between "intentionally losing games" and intentionally putting a team on the floor that is going to lose a lot of games means nothing to the end result. The endgame in both cases is to put a losing team on the floor to get a better draft pick. From a moral perspective, I'm not sure one is superior to the other. Both involved sins of omission and commission with the exact same goal in mind.

  7. #87
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Semantics. Two things: first, strawman says hello. I have never heard anyone suggest "tanking" means players and coaches intentionally throwing games. Everyone operates under the understanding that tanking involves management intentionally putting together a roster that can't win games and refusing to do things to improve the team (see: Butler, Rasual).

    Second, in utilitarian terms, the distinction between "intentionally losing games" and intentionally putting a team on the floor that is going to lose a lot of games means nothing to the end result. The endgame in both cases is to put a losing team on the floor to get a better draft pick. From a moral perspective, I'm not sure one is superior to the other. Both involved sins of omission and commission with the exact same goal in mind.
    I honestly don't think it's as black & white as you seem to want to make it. Lets look at the just the C position and this season, to illustrate.

    The Raptors drafted Valanciunas in the most recent draft, who is widely regarded to have been the best player available to the Raptors, who also filled a huge void (since management had decided to move Bargnani from C to PF). Valanciunas stayed in Europe this season, because he couldn't afford the buyout and the Raptors are not allowed to pay it for him; the decision to keep him there was out of the franchise's hands.

    By your logic, signing Gray and Magloire would be considered tanking, since BC could have signed (ie: Dalembert) or traded for (ie: Kaman) much better C. It would have cost the Raptors a lot of money, but they could have afforded it this season. It would have eaten up a roster spot, but they had them available. The 2012 Raptors would have been a better team by trading for Kaman who, by all accounts, was readily available.

    But what is the strategic point of laying out big money for Dalembert or trading for Kaman and his big contract, knowing Valaciunas would be coming over just one season later? That's BC's point about the draft last year - should taking the best available player be considered tanking? Does that mean that Minnesota tanked for multiple seasons a few years ago by drafting Rubio, even though he may be one of the best PG over the next decade? Or did Miami tank for at least one year, when the result was freeing up enough cap space to add both LeBron and Bosh? If so, were the results worth it for the franchise, their hometowns or their fans?

    If a team's players, management, ownership and fans all know that their current roster has absolutely no chance to win the championship in the current year, or even for a few seasons, is it not in their collective best interest to do whatever it takes to build a team that will legitimately be able to enter the championship debate within a few seasons? Is it any more acceptable or satisfying to perpetually exist in mediocrity? Should fans ever be excited when just making the playoffs is a serious goal? Playing sports is about winning, not finishing 8th place out of the 15 teams in your own conference.... yay, we're #8! We're #8! Brainwashing fans to accept such lofty goals as just reaching the playoffs to be a credible success, is much worse than putting up with a season or two of alleged tanking, as long as the reason for the tanking is to build a real championship contender within a few painful years.

  8. #88
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I honestly don't think it's as black & white as you seem to want to make it. Lets look at the just the C position and this season, to illustrate.
    You need to go back and read my posts on this past offseason/tanking/team building, etc. No one on this board is a bigger supporter of this team losing this season to build for the future than me. I was arguing for this approach in 2006 over Colangelo and MLSE's "win 42 games and squeak into the playoffs for one or two seasons" plan. Colangelo's obvious failure to correctly evaluate and build this team in the first instance is why I've been on about firing him for 3 years now. I'm opposed to building a medicore team to fight for 8th and always have been.

    The point of my previous post was that Apollo's defintion of "tanking" was a strawman cause no one is arguing the players and coaches should be throwing games and calling someone a loser for supporting what we all define as "tanking" was odd given his unwavering support of management doing as little as possible to win this year. I was also pointing out that the moral difference between intentionally losing and intentionally fielding a team you know can't win isn't a big one.

  9. #89
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Slaw please quote the term "tanking" from the official basketball dictionary as according to you everyone except me seems to think tanking has nothing to do with how hard the coaches and players work towards winning each game.

    Moving on, what does "tanking" result in? Losses. So, if someone has "tank #1" on the back of their jersey then they are supporting losing. Hence "LOSER" is fair game.

  10. #90
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    On the surface, yes. But Colangelo has created a situation where losing is almost expected this year. That may not be considered "tanking" per se, but it is openly accepting losses.
    Yes, BC did consciously assemble weak actors as filler to the core or unmovable group. But one has to admit there was another important reasoning in play here....cheap and no more obligations on contracts beyond this year in order to create cap room this summer. This happens to also dovetail well into the narrative of having a weak team since no really good players were available last year who would be either as cheap or willing to accept a one year deal on a team like the Raptors. They would however and did sign cheaply and for a year on playoff bound teams (Davis, Billups, Crawford etc etc).

  11. #91
    Raptors Republic Superstar ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Someone help me with a link or source here, I'll probably have an edit. But Dwayne Casey says something about tanking.

    EDIT* http://raptorswatch.com/2012/04/02/c...wizards-99-92/

  12. #92
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    Default Tank???

    Wtf are we doing? Why aren't we tanking, do Colangelo really want this team to finish close to the playoff and not make it so we draft either 8th, 9th or 10th. By that time, A.Davis, H.Barnes, A.Drummond, heck even MKG are gone and we are left with either Beal or maybe J.Lamb. What is the team thinking, what are the playrs thinking. Even if we make to the playoff, we will be eliminated by the Heat or the Magic.

  13. #93
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    a culture of losing is a lot harder to change than the benefit of the 5th pick vs the 9th pick

  14. #94
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    ask Washington, Charlotte and Sacremento how that is working out

  15. #95
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Beal is going top 4, 5 at the latest.

  16. #96
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    First, I think there is already a tanking thread that this could be posted to.

    Second, I highly doubt Beal is available with the 8-10 pick.

    Third, I think the Raptors performance shows that tanking is something that fans and possibly even BC are hoping for, but the team itself (coaches and players) is not tanking in the least. I like seeing them go out and give maximum effort in a lost season, even after being eliminated from the playoffs and knowing that many of them won't be back with the Raps next season.

    Fourth, I agree with you... pleeeeeesae lose more games to finish 4th worst at least! lol Or just win less than Cleveland, New Jersey, Sacramento, Detroit and Golden State!

  17. #97
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote tenforthewin wrote: View Post
    Wtf are we doing?
    I've been asking that question since the Vince Carter trade.

    a culture of losing is a lot harder to change than the benefit of the 5th pick vs the 9th pick
    Can we please stop with this "winning culture" nonsense. The Celtics went from ~20 wins to 60+ wins the next year cause they added two HOFers. You end up with a winning culture after you get winning players. An organization's culture is a product of the people in that organization and we have far too many losers in Raptorland. Until that changes, you can pound the rock all you want but it won't win you 50 games.

  18. #98
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote tenforthewin wrote: View Post
    Wtf are we doing? Why aren't we tanking, do Colangelo really want this team to finish close to the playoff and not make it so we draft either 8th, 9th or 10th. By that time, A.Davis, H.Barnes, A.Drummond, heck even MKG are gone and we are left with either Beal or maybe J.Lamb. What is the team thinking, what are the playrs thinking. Even if we make to the playoff, we will be eliminated by the Heat or the Magic.
    Aren't they like 4th last in the standings right now?

  19. #99
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    There's a lot of wacky stuff in that post and that's what you picked up on? Haha

  20. #100
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I'd stop if the Kings, Bobcats and Wizards would prove otherwise. The Pistons and The Raptors have had the biggest turnaround with little to no talent infusion based solely on a new coach and culture.

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