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Thread: Keeping DeRozen means passing on Barnes?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    Another season of disappointment would be inexcusable. The raptors draft the best player available to them even if it means they take minutes off Andrea or Demar. Then we make moves in the free agency and trades. If we are not competing for playoff spot next year I will go mad. 4 top draft picks in Andrea, Jonas, Demar and MKG/Barnes/Beal means we have to stop making excuses and get there.
    How do we define "disappointed" next season? I'm sure everyone will be aiming for the playoffs, but if the kids continue to show improvement, bust their asses all season, and fall just short of the 8th seed, I would feel encouraged going into the 2013-14 season.

    If we do somehow end up with 3 lottery picks in training camp this September, it'll be hard to expect them to "get it" immediately. It might require another year before playoffs become the norm.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote bounty wrote: View Post
    Gilchrist

    -Is the best perimeter defender, on the best defensive team in the NCAA.

    -He's one of the best wing rebounders in college averaging 7.7 rpg

    -Has good court vision/passing ability (possible point forward) averaging 2.1 apg

    -Shooting .48 FG% as a 17/18yo freshman

    -Averaging 13 ppg on 8 atpg as a 3rd option.

    -76% from the FT, which means there's potential for his shot, though he's shooting .300 % from 3 (same as a 20yo freshman Wade).

    -He's got all the intagibles you want in a player/leader.

    -Biggest negative being his advanced handles.

    Taking into consideration he's shown on occasion that he can break his man down with either his left or right. At 18 combined with the previous points made, he's clearly my top choice for the best wing in the draft for the mere fact that his weaknesses upon his broad strengths are correctable.

    #1 MKG -18yo freshman
    #2 Barnes -20yo sophmore
    #3 Lamb -20yo sophmore

    Watching Barnes/Lamb fail their teams the past couple games because their shot wasn't falling, I'm taking this time to remind those who are looking for offensive fit, that when Kentucky struggled against top competition, MKG has stood out as the teams best player & carried them to wins.

    In the Indy loss dont know if you guys still remember it was a while ago Davis sat most the game with foul trouble, Jones disappeared & they lost the game on a last sec 3, by one point because MKG who can't create or shoot, carried them.

    MKG impacts wins = my definition of a franchise player. Not someone who can create & score like Melo without impacting wins like he should.

    Valanciunas-----/Amir
    Bargnani--------/Ed
    MKG--------/Johnson
    DeRozan------------/someone
    Nash-----------/Bayless
    Solid points and for the record if we are able to draft MKG, I'd be equally excited, though at this point I'd prefer Beal and then Barnes because we seem to struggle with creating ofense when Calderon is out.

    If though they went with MKG, I'd love to see MKG and JJ on the floor at the same time shutting down the opposing teams' wings with Val covering their backs.

  3. #23
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    Quote Jon_Wade wrote: View Post
    IMO although MKG doesn't have the most complete offensive game I find that there are some good offensive parts to his game i mean obviously the rebounding and passing but he is a pretty good slasher and pretty solid at posting up at the right time.
    Wade wasn't exactly known for his range. Gilchrist can improve his shot over time, what's important is he's good at everything else that matters. I wouldn't over look him because of his range.

    He's the one carrying Kentucky, when everyone else disappears. Stats can't do that fact justice.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    I think you go for Barnes if he is still on the board. This guy was projected to go 1st about 6 months ago, and has all star potential you don't pass up on that.

    MKG looks like a great pick too, but the way he is described reminds me too much of a ... role player. We have JJ to play defense at the 3 for us.

    Keep derozan unless we are packaging him with Davis for an upgrade at the 2.
    And yet he has fallen to 5th on Chad Ford/ESPN mock draft and 6th on DraftExpress.com.

    The all-star potential is debatable - but you can put that tag on just about any high draft pick in the year of their draft.

    Barnes seems to be very one-dimensional in my opinion.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Barnes seems to be very one-dimensional in my opinion.
    This is my beef with him exactly. he's a good scorer but even then its mostly just jumpshooting, he's not even particularly good at creating off the dribble.
    @jerboat

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    This is my beef with him exactly. he's a good scorer but even then its mostly just jumpshooting, he's not even particularly good at creating off the dribble.
    Yup, me too. My fear is that we use a top 5 pick on Jason Kapono...
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #27
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Solid points and for the record if we are able to draft MKG, I'd be equally excited, though at this point I'd prefer Beal and then Barnes because we seem to struggle with creating ofense when Calderon is out.

    If though they went with MKG, I'd love to see MKG and JJ on the floor at the same time shutting down the opposing teams' wings with Val covering their backs.
    Thanks for that
    I'm high on Gilchrist because of his attitude & overall game, he would be a 6'7" SG/SF who plays lock down defence,

    Barnes hasn't exactly shown the ability to create off the dribble or create his own offence but he has range thats why he has kendall Marshall there helping him out.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote bounty wrote: View Post
    Thanks for that
    I'm high on Gilchrist because of his attitude & overall game, he would be a 6'7" SG/SF who plays lock down defence,

    Barnes hasn't exactly shown the ability to create off the dribble or create his own offence but he has range thats why he has kendall Marshall there helping him out.
    If Marshall does not play this week, which is a big possibility, then Barnes might have a make or break weekend in terms of his draft stock. A good weekend minus Marshall could put him back in the top 3 talk. A bad weekend is nearly certain to put him in the 5-8 talk. Brad Beal's stock is currently rising fast. Chad Ford has him at #4.

  9. #29
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    If Marshall does not play this week, which is a big possibility, then Barnes might have a make or break weekend in terms of his draft stock. A good weekend minus Marshall could put him back in the top 3 talk. A bad weekend is nearly certain to put him in the 5-8 talk. Brad Beal's stock is currently rising fast. Chad Ford has him at #4.
    Yes its a make or break game with Barnes and i think he will break with out his good buddy Marshall

  10. #30
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    Kansas, Indiana, UNC, Luisville, Tennesse. All his best performances have come against ranked teams & tougher competition.

    Against Indiana Davis spent the game in foul trouble while Jones struggled to find his offense, MKG carried the team to a 1 point loss

    Against UNC MKG outplayed Barnes who found himself in early foul trouble

    Against Tennesse he was the last example of him stepping his game up when it matters.

    I didn't comment on Knasas/Luisville because it's not fresh on my memory & I don't want to give false information but what I do know is that he stepped up in those games aswell.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Rookie Checkines's Avatar
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    I do think the right choice is Barnes, we need the end of a game shooter. He may be passive regarding driving the ball, but he's not afraid to shoot the ball when the game comes down to it. He's been compared to Granger and I am fine with that

    MGK is every coaches dream player but I think unless we get lucky in the lottery, we won't have a chance.

    The thing is, if we pair DD and Barnes, our defense severely lacks but if we pair DD and MGK our offense becomes stagnant with a lack of outside shooting from the wings.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    MKG's scoring or lack thereof isnt nearly the issue a lot of people make it out to be.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    MKG's scoring or lack thereof isnt nearly the issue a lot of people make it out to be.
    Exactly.

    And DeRozan hasn't exactly cemented himself as a piece long term. We shouldn't be too concerned about how our pick affects DeRozan.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #34
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    I think he's BPA after Davis/Drummond's potential. At 18 if MKG ever develops range he will be a complete player with high intensity & impact in all areas whereas Barnes as a sophmore is leveling out as a shooter IMO more than anything else. (I'm not saying he doesn't do other things well just not as well as MKG) Coming into the season I was hoping to see Barnes create for himself better & have not seen that improvement yet.
    Rookie MKG -13.4 ppg / 7.7 rebs / 2 asts / 1.3 stls / 1.2 blks
    (.494 FG, .344 3PT, .742 FT)

    Sophmore Barnes - 16.8 ppg / 4.8 rebs / 1.1 asts / 1.1 stls / .4 blks
    (.478 FG, .442 3PT, .732 FT)
    Stats indicate he's only better at shooting 3's. This meshes with my visual opinion.

    What stats don't say is how Gilchrist shows up for big games & clutch stops/rebounds.
    The thing is, if we pair DD and Barnes, our defense severely lacks but if we pair DD and MGK our offense becomes stagnant with a lack of outside shooting from the wing but MGK has shown promise in improving his outside shot.

  15. #35
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    MKG,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3i72j...eature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9mefHjfo30

    ^fast forward to the 1 minute mark #6/7 (Keep in mind he's 18 facing a good defender in Barnes) He's also more aggressive in attacking the hoop than Barnes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyd04...eature=related


    In comparison

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEOri...eature=related

    Note that Barnes could not find his way to the rim & most his offence was pull up or spot 3. He's a dangerous shooter but I think MKG has a more complete game. When Jones is off court MKG number does call to run the offence.

    I also think he's an under-rated passer, he knows how to create space with his passes. He draws then kicks, he doesn't just kick + good court vision/decisions..

    Watching how Gilchrist finds Davis, I think he would be a monster with Val in a pick'n'roll

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Toinsy's Avatar
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  17. #37
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    Quote Toinsy wrote: View Post

    NO player ever say hes going to school for a year and then comming out for the nba they always say how there going for an education bla bla bla what ever there agent/parents tell them to make them sound good and to make gm's say what a nice guy im drafting him lol.....

  18. #38
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    Quote bounty wrote: View Post
    I think he's BPA after Davis/Drummond's potential. At 18 if MKG ever develops range he will be a complete player with high intensity & impact in all areas whereas Barnes as a sophmore is leveling out as a shooter IMO more than anything else. (I'm not saying he doesn't do other things well just not as well as MKG) Coming into the season I was hoping to see Barnes create for himself better & have not seen that improvement yet.
    Rookie MKG -13.4 ppg / 7.7 rebs / 2 asts / 1.3 stls / 1.2 blks
    (.494 FG, .344 3PT, .742 FT)

    Sophmore Barnes - 16.8 ppg / 4.8 rebs / 1.1 asts / 1.1 stls / .4 blks
    (.478 FG, .442 3PT, .732 FT)
    Stats indicate he's only better at shooting 3's. This meshes with my visual opinion.

    What stats don't say is how Gilchrist shows up for big games & clutch stops/rebounds.
    The thing is, if we pair DD and Barnes, our defense severely lacks but if we pair DD and MGK our offense becomes stagnant with a lack of outside shooting from the wing but MGK has shown promise in improving his outside shot.
    Definitely like his intangibles (hustle, effort) and his defence and rebounding are great, the only issue is will he become a liability in the half court? The Raps are not a running team and don't get out in transition, so he will have to create for himself in the half court and from what I have seen he is raw handling the ball and with his shot in a set offence.

    This is my concern with his game as there will be very little transition buckets to be had on this team.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    If it's a choice between Barnes and MKG, I would go with MKG and hope that with enough practice time, he can develop his offensive game.

    It's easy to convince players to shoot. It's not easy to get them to go balls out 24/7.
    +1
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Hello wrote: View Post
    Any chance we could trade DD or Ed for another top 5 pick and draft both?
    Im assuming it would not happen but its a possibility

    Any teams (im thinking maybe Washington) That would rather have a 2 year old player like DD who is more ready to play now, then get another rookie?

    Calderon
    Barnes
    MKG
    Bargs
    Val

    I do see a nice blend of offence and defence there.

    PG aquied in Derozen/calderon trade
    MKG
    JJohnson
    Bargs
    Val

    I dont know why people are not feeling JJohnson - he is just rounding the corner of shedding "rookie status" and I see continued improvement in 10 game increments. He will get you 12/8 with a couple blocks and a couple steels while locking down the leagues top wing men.

    Who ever they draft can fit in with current crop of wing men and then you address the calderon situation <- seems more like a realistic road map to success. If you can get a PG who is a great on the ball defender with that crop of players - watch out!
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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