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Thread: Time to Mock the Mockers (2012 Edition)

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter Katman's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Why should that matter? These guys have been together for a short time and have accomplished nothing. Making upgrades should be free game.

    Drummond has the talent to be the top guy in the draft. A lot of things would have to play out the right way for it to happen but if Colangelo feels it will happen then why should we care about what happens to Andrea, Ed and Amir? It won't matter long term and they're going to get good players back for any of those guys.
    So you agree with Chad Ford that Drummond would be better for the Raps than Barnes?

    The point of the thread is, do you agree with the mock selection?
    Last edited by Katman; Fri Mar 30th, 2012 at 11:38 AM.

  2. #22
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying Colangelo should take who ever is at the top of his draft board. Whether or not Chad Ford has that correct means nothing to me. I don't care who the player is at the end of the day as much as that the player has the most talent/upside out of what's left in the class.

    Last year I loved the idea of the Raptors getting Kemba Walker but you know what? I'm not an NBA scout, I don't do that for a living. I know Kemba Walker's game fairly well because I watched him many times but I didn't watch the other 29 players who went in the draft many times. So when #5 came up and the Raptors took JV I couldn't argue the pick. Colangelo came out and said he took the best player available and this was with three young big men already on roster. I didn't care then either. All I kept reading was how JV might be the best prospect in the draft. That's what got me on board with the pick. Colangelo made the most of his opportunity instead of trying to "get by" with his opportunity.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Wait, when have the not stuck to their guns? The way you phrase this it's like Colangelo has a track record of giving up on high lotto prospects. That couldn't be further from the truth. There's a difference between giving up on prospect and having a huge influx of young talent and having to balance it. Teams who draft out of need are typically the teams that make you step back later and make you ask questions like "why the hell did they take this guy instead of Andre Igulodala?!"



    Why do you assume he would just deal away depth to make room for a rookie to play 40MPG? If anything Bargnani stays atleast until the deadline and over the summer Amir or Ed would be moved. Colangelo isn't going to saddle Casey with two rookies playing heavy minutes. Especially during a contract for both Colangelo and Casey.



    Right. It's better to crash and burn due to error in talent evaluation than to get the talent evaluation correct, ignore it and instead draft out of necessity. Free agency is the place where you purposely fill holes, not the draft.
    This actually puts it into perspective. For some reason, i already assumed that Bargnani would be the first one to go since a high pick like Drummond would probably expect to play heavy minutes even in his rookie year. But wouldnt there be a highly talented pick, good enough to fill the Raps needs?

    I guess i was a bit vague in my argument, my argument should have initially been - if there's a draft pick highly talented enough to fill the raps needs, should they still go for the BPA? A prelude to Katman's question, hehehe.

  4. #24
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    This actually puts it into perspective. For some reason, i already assumed that Bargnani would be the first one to go since a high pick like Drummond would probably expect to play heavy minutes even in his rookie year. But wouldnt there be a highly talented pick, good enough to fill the Raps needs?
    Maybe it will work out that way. That would be the best case scenario. All I'm saying is that just like poker, you're not always dealt the best hand but that doesn't matter because making the best of what you've been dealt trumps all if you're good enough.

    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I guess i was a bit vague in my argument, my argument should have initially been - if there's a draft pick highly talented enough to fill the raps needs, should they still go for the BPA? A prelude to Katman's question, hehehe.
    Always go for the best player available. You never want to be the guy who passed on a superstar to draft a slightly above average player to fill a roster hole. And that's not commentary about Drummond and Barnes, that's just a general statement. Both those guys could be gone before the Raptors pick. Chad Ford gets it wrong every year. He's no psychic.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying Colangelo should take who ever is at the top of his draft board. Whether or not Chad Ford has that correct means nothing to me. I don't care who the player is at the end of the day as much as that the player has the most talent/upside out of what's left in the class.

    Last year I loved the idea of the Raptors getting Kemba Walker but you know what? I'm not an NBA scout, I don't do that for a living. I know Kemba Walker's game fairly well because I watched him many times but I didn't watch the other 29 players who went in the draft many times. So when #5 came up and the Raptors took JV I couldn't argue the pick. Colangelo came out and said he took the best player available and this was with three young big men already on roster. I didn't care then either. All I kept reading was how JV might be the best prospect in the draft. That's what got me on board with the pick. Colangelo made the most of his opportunity instead of trying to "get by" with his opportunity.
    I think the BPA is subjective. Colangelo might have said that JV was the BPA, but IMO, they were coveting a center, and they drafted a center. I know this maybe moot since the draft is over, but if Bargnani was averaging 10rebs and defending the paint like a center would normally do, was JV the right pick for the Raps? Would BC make him the 5th pick?
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Mar 30th, 2012 at 04:14 PM.

  6. #26
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think the BPA is objective. Colangelo might have said that JV was the BPA, but IMO, they were coveting a center, and they drafted a center. I know this maybe moot since the draft is over, but if Bargnani was averaging 10rebs and defending the paint like a center would normally do, was JV the right pick for the Raps? Would BC make him the 5th pick?
    You can try to read between the lines all you want but I'm not going there with you. All I know is that Colangelo consistently comes out after a draft and states that he's selected the best player available. I also know that he has a better track record in the draft than a lot of the league.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    You could ask "what if" with every scenario though. What if we pass up on Drummond and he goes on to become an MVP candidate?
    jesus we already have five MVP candidates in Calderon, DeRozan Johnson, Bargnani and Valanciunas...

    You guys are getting really greedy

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I think the BPA is objective. Colangelo might have said that JV was the BPA, but IMO, they were coveting a center, and they drafted a center. I know this maybe moot since the draft is over, but if Bargnani was averaging 10rebs and defending the paint like a center would normally do, was JV the right pick for the Raps? Would BC make him the 5th pick?
    One is not married to a draft pick either.

    Selecting the Best Player Available gives the team more options and more opportunity to receive value via trade.

  9. #29
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You can try to read between the lines all you want but I'm not going there with you. All I know is that Colangelo consistently comes out after a draft and states that he's selected the best player available. I also know that he has a better track record in the draft than a lot of the league.
    If you look back at the draft boards. DeRozan was the BPA Davis was the BPA and Valanciunas was for sure the BPA. Bargnani is just now proving to be the BPA from that draft (although up until this year that move looked shakey). I trust in BC when it comes time to draft. I trust in BC when it comes to fixing mistakes. Barbosa for Turk was a steal. I do think he jumps the gun a bit in free agency and trades in general though

  10. #30
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I'm told several of the draft picks will eventually get married

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    If you look back at the draft boards. DeRozan was the BPA Davis was the BPA and Valanciunas was for sure the BPA. Bargnani is just now proving to be the BPA from that draft (although up until this year that move looked shakey).
    What

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    If recent history has created a blue print of what championship front courts look like:
    Dirk/Chandler
    Gasol/Bynum
    Garnett/Perkins
    B. Wallace/R. Wallace
    Duncan/fill in the blank
    O'neal/fill in the blank

    I would say you need one scoring specialist and one defensive specialist (with the exception of Duncan and O'neal who did both for their team....ah they don't make bigs like they use to). With that in mind perhaps two bigs in the front court that are more in the mold of defensive specialists (Drummond/JV) is not a great idea. Not that they can't be really good together and not that one can't be a really good interior scorer, but from what see right now Bargnani might be the better option to pair up with either of JV or Drummond.

  13. #33
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    What
    As much of a Bargnani fan as I am, even I had to do a double-take on that statement! From all the players legitimately being considered the top prospect, I would agree that Bargnani would be top-3 from that draft right now, along with Aldridge and Gay. Obviously Aldridge wasn't a real thought for a Raptors team buliding around Bosh as their PF, which would make Bargnani top-2 from the Raptors' perspective. But to say that he's the easy #1... hmmmm ballsy, I'll give him that! lol

  14. #34
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    If recent history has created a blue print of what championship front courts look like:
    Dirk/Chandler
    Gasol/Bynum
    Garnett/Perkins
    B. Wallace/R. Wallace
    Duncan/fill in the blank
    O'neal/fill in the blank

    I would say you need one scoring specialist and one defensive specialist (with the exception of Duncan and O'neal who did both for their team....ah they don't make bigs like they use to). With that in mind perhaps two bigs in the front court that are more in the mold of defensive specialists (Drummond/JV) is not a great idea. Not that they can't be really good together and not that one can't be a really good interior scorer, but from what see right now Bargnani might be the better option to pair up with either of JV or Drummond.
    I agree that an ideal C/PF front court consists of a defensive anchor and a scoring threat. That's one of the reasons why I would seriously consider trading the #1 overall pick if the Raptors were to win the lottery, as I think Davis' strengths are going to mirror JV too much. I personally like the combination of JV and AB. Therefore, I'd rather trade the #1 pick for #2-5 pick (to get MKG or Beal) and either another lottery pick (ie: Portland, Utah and NO are all potential possibilities) or another solid young rotation player.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    As much of a Bargnani fan as I am, even I had to do a double-take on that statement! From all the players legitimately being considered the top prospect, I would agree that Bargnani would be top-3 from that draft right now, along with Aldridge and Gay. Obviously Aldridge wasn't a real thought for a Raptors team buliding around Bosh as their PF, which would make Bargnani top-2 from the Raptors' perspective. But to say that he's the easy #1... hmmmm ballsy, I'll give him that! lol
    Don't forget Rondo...
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I agree that an ideal C/PF front court consists of a defensive anchor and a scoring threat. That's one of the reasons why I would seriously consider trading the #1 overall pick if the Raptors were to win the lottery, as I think Davis' strengths are going to mirror JV too much. I personally like the combination of JV and AB. Therefore, I'd rather trade the #1 pick for #2-5 pick (to get MKG or Beal) and either another lottery pick (ie: Portland, Utah and NO are all potential possibilities) or another solid young rotation player.
    Sorry there's no way you don't take Anthony Davis. JV and Davis could end up being very good offensive players as well.

    From Draft Express on Davis:

    While Davis plays a simple role for Kentucky, he's arguably the most efficient offensive player in college basketball, converting an amazing 67% of his 2-point attempts (which ranks in the top 15 in our database in the past decade) and turning the ball over on just 9% of his possessions. He's one of the best finishers we've seen in recent years, making nearly 80% of his non-post-up attempts around the basket.

    From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz1qcbMSq1e
    http://www.draftexpress.com
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    You can try to read between the lines all you want but I'm not going there with you. All I know is that Colangelo consistently comes out after a draft and states that he's selected the best player available. I also know that he has a better track record in the draft than a lot of the league.
    I agree.

  18. #38
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Don't forget Rondo...
    He was never part of the discussion for even the top-10 of that draft, let alone potential #1 pick. There's no point factoring in players who were overlooked by practically the whole league the first time around. I was just reviewing the lottery in hindsight, paying attention only to the players that were part of the conversation back then.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I agree that an ideal C/PF front court consists of a defensive anchor and a scoring threat. That's one of the reasons why I would seriously consider trading the #1 overall pick if the Raptors were to win the lottery, as I think Davis' strengths are going to mirror JV too much. I personally like the combination of JV and AB. Therefore, I'd rather trade the #1 pick for #2-5 pick (to get MKG or Beal) and either another lottery pick (ie: Portland, Utah and NO are all potential possibilities) or another solid young rotation player.
    Though maximizing the first over all pick would be good idea in last years draft I have to agree with Employee that you can't trade Anthony Davis for anything. I'd move JV before I move Anthony Davis, but if it were up to me I'd keep all three of AD, JV and AB. Play all three in rotation next season and lets see how JV and AD translate into the NBA next season. You keep whomever looks like the best option going forward stays on the team and the third either one of the three could be traded for another peice.

    Rome wasn't built in one off season, nor should this team be. We want to put a contender together, not just make the playoffs. You have to ask yourself if the team we're building has the parts and talent to beat Chicago, Miami, OKC etc..

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    What core? Amir Johnson? Ed Davis? Bargnani? Derozan? James Johnson? Dear god. If that's the core then disrupting it is perfectly fine by me.
    Im not sure what youre expecting the core to be. You cant fill a roster with Paul, Kobe, LBJ, Dirk, Dhow, Wade, etc. You cant expect a team to have all great to elite players. Amir, Ed, Bargnani, Demar and JJ may not be the best but they are good at their positions and with what they cant do. If JV ends up being the guy we all expect him to be, get a potential superstar in the draft and FA as well, you dont consider this team to be a potential threat in the east? Specially with the aging Celtics and Magic, the injury riddled Bulls and cant-rebound Heat? Mind you this team was one playoff game away with one borderline superstar and Joey Dorsey/Reggie Evans/Sonny Weems/Antoine Wright as a starter in a stretch of games.

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