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Thread: Time to Mock the Mockers (2012 Edition)

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Though maximizing the first over all pick would be good idea in last years draft I have to agree with Employee that you can't trade Anthony Davis for anything. I'd move JV before I move Anthony Davis, but if it were up to me I'd keep all three of AD, JV and AB. Play all three in rotation next season and lets see how JV and AD translate into the NBA next season. You keep whomever looks like the best option going forward stays on the team and the third either one of the three could be traded for another peice.

    Rome wasn't built in one off season, nor should this team be. We want to put a contender together, not just make the playoffs. You have to ask yourself if the team we're building has the parts and talent to beat Chicago, Miami, OKC etc..
    I didnt see all of Davis' games, and JVs either, but even with limited knowledge i dont think i'd take Davis over JV.

    One guy played with college kids and the other guy played with European pro athletes, some in their primes.

    I dont think it even warrants a comparison.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Anthony Davis would have gone first over all last year as well as the year before. He's as sure to be a star as one can say without knowing the future wheras JV projects to be a good player, not a great one. You can only make educated guesses on how players will turn out, but to pass up on what all the scouts are calling one of the best players to come out of college in years for JV (if it came to chosing between them) makes little sense.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Need should not matter in the draft. The draft is about the future, not the present. You take the best player available on your board and the future will make way for your decision.
    Needs vs Best Player
    For the most part, Needs are less subjective then Best Player Available. Aside from Anthony Davis & Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, things start to get less certain at the top (of this Draft).

    Some mock drafts have Barnes high, others have Beal going #2 ... even Jeremy Lamb gets his name up there. The point is, after the consensus top pick (Davis), it could go any number of ways. Which to me is what I'd describe as subjective.
    .

    What I find so f*@ked up, is how many of these Mock Draft Boards have Raptors picking another Big .... wtf. Are we Minnesota deja vu - with Bigs - instead of Point Guards. How's that working out for the Timber Wolves? Try 57 wins in almost 3 seasons (when they started the PG slop-fest). I guess the real question is, with the Raptors already loaded with tall guys, why would we go after 2 more of them (which includes JV - a probable #2 or #3 if he was in this draft). Yes - Davis would be an easy sure-fire answer. But after him, the question has to be ...... WHY?
    .

    Raptors have needs from the 1 & 3 spots, with some even going so far as to include our SG spot. Never-the-less, Toronto has some serious needs in the Back Court - especially Starter quality. Shouldn't we start addressing that, or do we expect some Free Agent to make his way here because he's okay with the smell up here.

    Some will counter that we'll have these extra Bigs to trade, forgetting that this draft is loaded with them. Economics 101 will tell you that when your supply is larger than the demand, price goes down. Hence, Raptors need to go after their Needs - when the BPA is not readily dominant.

    .

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Needs vs Best Player
    For the most part, Needs are less subjective then Best Player Available. Aside from Anthony Davis & Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, things start to get less certain at the top (of this Draft).

    Some mock drafts have Barnes high, others have Beal going #2 ... even Jeremy Lamb gets his name up there. The point is, after the consensus top pick (Davis), it could go any number of ways. Which to me is what I'd describe as subjective.
    .

    What I find so f*@ked up, is how many of these Mock Draft Boards have Raptors picking another Big .... wtf. Are we Minnesota deja vu - with Bigs - instead of Point Guards. How's that working out for the Timber Wolves? Try 57 wins in almost 3 seasons (when they started the PG slop-fest). I guess the real question is, with the Raptors already loaded with tall guys, why would we go after 2 more of them (which includes JV - a probable #2 or #3 if he was in this draft). Yes - Davis would be an easy sure-fire answer. But after him, the question has to be ...... WHY?
    .

    Raptors have needs from the 1 & 3 spots, with some even going so far as to include our SG spot. Never-the-less, Toronto has some serious needs in the Back Court - especially Starter quality. Shouldn't we start addressing that, or do we expect some Free Agent to make his way here because he's okay with the smell up here.

    Some will counter that we'll have these extra Bigs to trade, forgetting that this draft is loaded with them. Economics 101 will tell you that when your supply is larger than the demand, price goes down. Hence, Raptors need to go after their Needs - when the BPA is not readily dominant.

    .
    That last sentence is a no brainer. I agree 100% with it.

    I don't think the conversation has been about when one player is not noticeably better than another - at least that is the way I've interpreted it. If there is no difference in evaluated talent and potential, then yes, go with needs.

  5. #45
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That last sentence is a no brainer. I agree 100% with it.

    I don't think the conversation has been about when one player is not noticeably better than another - at least that is the way I've interpreted it. If there is no difference in evaluated talent and potential, then yes, go with needs.
    That is a solid line of thinking but can we really look at this roster and not think that there are needs everywhere?

    Outside of the 5 spot (and that is still an uncertainty) we need talent upgrades at every position. They are currently trying to develop young players that don't have "it" factor. There are a few decent pieces but I'm hoping this draft pick will turn out to be an undisputable 'core' piece of the team.

    P.S. Beal in the top 3? I pride myself on keeping up with the college game and although he is a nice prospect, I can't say from what I saw of him this year that he would be taken that high. I think both Beal and MKG are sexy picks that might not give you the return expected from a top 3 selection. I might end up eating those words but just mho.

  6. #46
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Needs vs Best Player
    For the most part, Needs are less subjective then Best Player Available. Aside from Anthony Davis & Michael Kidd-Gilchrist, things start to get less certain at the top (of this Draft).

    Some mock drafts have Barnes high, others have Beal going #2 ... even Jeremy Lamb gets his name up there. The point is, after the consensus top pick (Davis), it could go any number of ways. Which to me is what I'd describe as subjective.
    The thing you've missed here is I'm not saying he should pick the player you or I feel is the best player available. I am saying he should pick the player he feels is the best player available.

    You're basing your opinion solely on what these sports writers think. Colangelo will be basing his opinion on years of research, what his scouting team is reporting and workouts where he is on the floor with the players. Don't just assume Colangelo agrees with these sport analysts. History will tell you that the GM's rarely follow these mock drafts. What we do know is Colangelo develops a draft board, ranking the players in the class. What I am saying is he should pick the guy at the top of his board when his turn comes to pick. Of course the "BPA" is subjective but it's an irrelevant point because honestly, we don't matter in this process. The only thing that matters is what Colanglo thinks.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Maybe it will work out that way. That would be the best case scenario. All I'm saying is that just like poker, you're not always dealt the best hand but that doesn't matter because making the best of what you've been dealt trumps all if you're good enough.

    Always go for the best player available. You never want to be the guy who passed on a superstar to draft a slightly above average player to fill a roster hole. And that's not commentary about Drummond and Barnes, that's just a general statement. Both those guys could be gone before the Raptors pick. Chad Ford gets it wrong every year. He's no psychic.
    i agree with drafting BPA always... the raps have alot of examples of drafting need over BPA & most have turned out horrid.. even Bosh... id of rather had Wade at #4...then traded VC....Hoffa over Iggy was a real brain melter... the list goes on & on with this team..

  8. #48
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    That is a solid line of thinking but can we really look at this roster and not think that there are needs everywhere?

    Outside of the 5 spot (and that is still an uncertainty) we need talent upgrades at every position. They are currently trying to develop young players that don't have "it" factor. There are a few decent pieces but I'm hoping this draft pick will turn out to be an undisputable 'core' piece of the team.

    P.S. Beal in the top 3? I pride myself on keeping up with the college game and although he is a nice prospect, I can't say from what I saw of him this year that he would be taken that high. I think both Beal and MKG are sexy picks that might not give you the return expected from a top 3 selection. I might end up eating those words but just mho.
    At this point, I think that Beal is likely at the top of his value due to his very good performance in games at the end of the season. I expect that he might slide a bit after the combine and workouts, unless he measures better than expected physically and athletically. On the other hand, I expect that Barnes is unlikely to drop any more, and if he measures well and works out well, he will probably move up a bit on a few GM boards. It's hard to know what happens with someone like MKG. He will probably measure well and show his athleticism, and he will probably be a great interview. But if it looks like he shooting is very poor, that might give a few GMs pause. Unless Drummond looks like a stiff in workouts, I expect that he can only go up on GMs' boards based on his performance this year. I expect that GMs' will really pay attention to his interviews as well. I expect that they'll want to have some confidence that he really wants it. If he seems lackadaisical, he might slide a bit more. One of the reasons that JV is such an exciting prospect is that he seems to have a dynamite personality and a great "motor". That, along with his size and great touch will translate very well to the NBA, I think.

  9. #49
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    By the way, GMs will always take the guy that they think is the BPA at the top of the draft. Imagine a GM admitting that "well, we thought that other guy was going to be a better player, but the guy we chose filled our positional needs better". But GMs probably do get influenced somewhat by glaring holes in their roster, especially if a few guys are relatively close in their assessment.

  10. #50
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    i agree with drafting BPA always... the raps have alot of examples of drafting need over BPA & most have turned out horrid.. even Bosh... id of rather had Wade at #4...then traded VC....Hoffa over Iggy was a real brain melter... the list goes on & on with this team..
    In Glen Grunwald's opinion Bosh might have been the best player available. No one knew what Wade would become. No one was saying that in the scouting reports.

  11. #51
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Wait, when have the not stuck to their guns? The way you phrase this it's like Colangelo has a track record of giving up on high lotto prospects. That couldn't be further from the truth. There's a difference between giving up on prospect and having a huge influx of young talent and having to balance it. Teams who draft out of need are typically the teams that make you step back later and make you ask questions like "why the hell did they take this guy instead of Andre Igulodala?!"



    Why do you assume he would just deal away depth to make room for a rookie to play 40MPG? If anything Bargnani stays atleast until the deadline and over the summer Amir or Ed would be moved. Colangelo isn't going to saddle Casey with two rookies playing heavy minutes. Especially during a contract for both Colangelo and Casey.



    Right. It's better to crash and burn due to error in talent evaluation than to get the talent evaluation correct, ignore it and instead draft out of necessity. Free agency is the place where you purposely fill holes, not the draft.
    Agreed! Drafting is like playing Russian Roulette. Look at the 2011 draft and tell me if you would draft those players in the same order. You don't have a redo. You can't say, I was just playing that time - now let me get Igulodala for real guys. Even your best shot could be wrong - do you really want to go for your second to fourth best choice!!!

    That said, the player they want could be further down but so much change in the board right now. Their will be some real gems in the second round also.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    That is a solid line of thinking but can we really look at this roster and not think that there are needs everywhere?

    Outside of the 5 spot (and that is still an uncertainty) we need talent upgrades at every position. They are currently trying to develop young players that don't have "it" factor. There are a few decent pieces but I'm hoping this draft pick will turn out to be an undisputable 'core' piece of the team.

    P.S. Beal in the top 3? I pride myself on keeping up with the college game and although he is a nice prospect, I can't say from what I saw of him this year that he would be taken that high. I think both Beal and MKG are sexy picks that might not give you the return expected from a top 3 selection. I might end up eating those words but just mho.
    And we are back to pick the best player available again!

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Starter Pele's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    What core? Amir Johnson? Ed Davis? Bargnani? Derozan? James Johnson? Dear god. If that's the core then disrupting it is perfectly fine by me.
    Second that.

  14. #54
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    Nobody championing the virtues of the tiered drafting approach? It's the perfect hybrid. Lump guy's into tiers, then draft by need from those tiers. Even with this approach, we may end up with another PF... but it is what it is. Most mock drafts have 4 bigs going in the first 6 or 7 picks. They'll be hard to avoid drafting in that range.

    We may still see somebody pull a Westbrook, and get selected 40 picks sooner then expected after melting brains during the work-outs.

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Something else to consider is other teams needs.

    Personally, I think Charlotte, Washington, New Orleans, Sacramento, Detroit, and Portland (via NJ) have a need for bigs.

    Cleveland and Toronto have a need for wings.

    GSW Milwaukee are perfect examples of take the best player available as they have decent - but not great - talent all around.

    Utah (GSW) needs a PG.


    I think there is a strong possibility Toronto could get the pick they feel is the best player and fits a need outside of the top 3 - fingers crossed.

  16. #56
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    who knows they could always move bargnani back to sf. lol

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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    If you look back at the draft boards. DeRozan was the BPA Davis was the BPA and Valanciunas was for sure the BPA. Bargnani is just now proving to be the BPA from that draft (although up until this year that move looked shakey).
    Did you just say Bargnani is better than Aldridge, Rondo and Rudy Gay? I'll admit there were a lot of flops in that draft(Patrick O'Bryant, Foye, Williams, Morrison) but Bargnani was definately not the BPA

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    Is it likely the raps could trade for Gerald Wallace? is NJ lookin to dish?

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    Quote koncept wrote: View Post
    Is it likely the raps could trade for Gerald Wallace? is NJ lookin to dish?
    Wallace could optout of his contract and become a FA at the end of this season.

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    If he does opt out and we get Beal in the draft that could be a beauty of a fit with Bargs, Wallace, Val, Beal
    Whoever told you skies the limit is looking dumb because I'm 22 and i'm moonwalking on the sun.

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