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Thread: Do you really need a Star Point Guard to win a Title?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie bounty's Avatar
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    Default Do you really need a Star Point Guard to win a Title?

    Jason Kidd- 9 ppg 7 ast 4 rpg

    Derek Fisher- '10 10 ppg 3 ast 2.5 rpg

    Derek Fisher- '09 8 ppg 2 ast 2 rpg

    Rajon Rondo- 10 pgg 6.5 ast 4 rpg

    Tony Parker- 21 ppg 6 ast 3.5 rpg

    Jason Williams- 30 mintues 9 ppg 4 rpg 2 rpg Gary Payton 24 minutes 6 ppg 1.5 ast 1.5 rpg

    Parker- 17 pgg 4 ast 3 rpg

    Billups- 16 ppg 6 ast 3 rpg

    Parker 15 ppg 3 ast 3 rpg

    Fisher- 10 3 3

    Fisher- 13 4 3

    Ron harper- 8 3 4

    Avery Johnson- 12 7 2.5

    Ron Harper- 28 minutes 7 2 4 Steve Kerr 20 minutes 5 2 .8

    Ron Harper- 27 minutes 7.5 3 4 Steve Kerr 18 minutes 5 1 1

    Ron Harper 27 minutes 9 2.5 4 Steve Kerr 20 minutes 7 2 1

    Kenny Smith 29 minutes 11 4.5 2 Sam Cassell 22 minutes 11 4 2

    These are the playoff stats for the Championship point guards of the last 17 years, and as you can see, we don't see a single superstar point guard. We see All-Stars in Parker and Billups, we see a future all star in Rondo and former all star in Kidd, but at the time of the finals they were not the all star players they were or would become. The concensus is that you need a superstar point guard to compete for a point guard, and while there are many great point guards in the game today, history proves that championship teams don't neccesarily need top flight point guards to compete for a tittle.

    I could have kept going back and we wouldn't have had another star point until Isaiah Thomas, right before the first Bulls three peat. Now this doesn't mean that having a star point hinders you, but it shows that there is more to it than having a guy that can get by anyone and break the defense on his own. If you look at these guys one by one, you will see that it's a mix of savvy vets, shooters, and guys that can find the open man.

    Kenny Smith was not old by any means, didn't have th quickness he had years earlier, but the Rockets used a combo of his veteran experience, and Cassell's youth and quickness. Then for three straight years, the Bulls used Steve Kerr and Ron Harper, with Harper being the primary point guard getting slightly more minutes than Kerr. harper had been a prolific scorere for several years with the Clips, injuries slowed him down, but he was brought to Chicago to defend and serve as a guy that would get the ball to MJ in his spots. he brought toughness and experience, although I think that Bulls team had all the leadership they needed with Michael. Steve Kerr got his fair share of minutes for one reason, and that was to shoot. He was considered a liability on defense, but the rest of the Bulls D was so stout that they could affford to take a hit in that catagory, and his shooting was sorely needed, Ron Harper and MJ weren't the greatest shooters, and Kerr's ability to spread the floor for the likes of MJ and Pip was invaluable.

    Then you have Avery Johnson, he was quick enough to take his guy off the dribble and score, he was undersized, but his main task was to get the ball to the bigs, and that is exactly was he did. In the Lakers first go around Derek Fisher did't get huch run, and it was Ron Harper reuniting with Jackson, he brought the same leadership he brought to the Bulls, and with a young Kobe in the backcourt, he was needed to manage and control the tempo of the game and sort of keep the touches equal between Kobe and Shaq.

    Then you have Fisher breaking out of his shell, in his prime he was an above average starter, he made the right decisions, had a high Bball IQ, and hit the shots he needed to hit, and was a bit more spry then he is nowdays, lol.

    Then there is Parker 3 of the next 5 years. His first Finals there was immense pressure on his to do well and not get schooled by J-Kidd. There were rumblings that the Spurs would sign and trade Kidd that off-season and would ship off Parker, then a promising 20 year old with the ability to penetrate the middle and get to the basket. He was very solid the first year, and was teh second/third option behind Timmy the next two chamionship runs, he would be able to get to the rim, score at an efficient rate, and set up their big man inside. And in 2007(with Eva looking along) he had the series of his life, toyed with poor Boogie Gibson, and won the finals MVP, probably the best chamionship PG since Isaiah, and the only to take MVP honors in the last 20 years.

    And Big Shot Billups was clutch that year, leading a 4 headed monster past the Lakers. In his prime he would get to the foul line almost at will, and would set up his other teamates, and brought terrific suffocating D on Payton and Fish.

    In 2006 Jason Wiliams and Gary Payton shared the load. To be honest Payton was washed up, Williams had some left in the tank, pretty much a spot up shooter, showed some flashes of White Chocolate. They basically brought the ball up the floor, than they gave it to D Wade in his isolation sets of Shaq in the post, and would spot up the rest of the time. Payton was there basically to be a floor leader with a young D-Wade there.

    Then we have young Rondo, and when the big three was formed, many of us severely doubted the ability of Rondo to adequetly run the point, some thought it would be '96 Houston all over again, where you have three Star vets just at the end of their primes, but a lackluster young point that couldn't hold his own. Rondo didn't break out, but was very solid and showed us flashes of the great distributor he would become.

    Now you D-Fish and J-Kidd. Fisher was basically a leader and experience guy that was there for shooting, remember he made some big shots to clinch the tittle against the Magic. Kidd was there for shooting as well, he was still(and still is, to a lesser extent) a very good distributor that sitll hits the boards hard, and you can't leave him alone beyond the arc otherwise he'll make you pay.

    As you can see, most of these guys are older veterans that have experience with handling big moments and the situation. Otehr than Parker and Billups, none of these guys at that point in their careers could say"I'm gonna take my guy off the dribble, get in the paint, and then make a decision from there". I'm not trying to say a superstar point guard can't win a tittle, but this shows it can certainly be done as long as the system uses each player correctly, and each team with the exception of the 04 Pistons(They had enough All-Stars to make up for it) had one superstar transcendent player, whether it was a bigman or a wing, and by riding that player, the team was able to win a chamionship without a superstar caliber point guard. And as you could see from the stats above, most of those guys didn't have very gaudy assist numbers either. Most of those guys for the most part would give it up to the star player, whether it be Kobe, Dirk, Shaq, and then they would go out to the perimeter and wait for their opportunity for the open three.

    And in defense of guys like CP3, and even D-Will and AI, they didn't have the right pieces arond them to do so. And there may be plenty of great Points right now, but in the mid 90s there weren't that many other than Payton and Kidd. Hopefully we'll see a guy like Nash win it soon, but it goes to show that more than an explosive do-it-all athelte, you can do it with a smart and controlled veteran.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    star, no. but you need one that can play adequate defense since you're the point of attack and ability to quarterback the team.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Big men win you championships. Any composed pure-PG would do if they have real big men around them. Tim Duncan, Tyson Chandler, Dirk nowitzki, KG, Shaq and very soon Lebron and KD.

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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    star, no. but you need one that can play adequate defense since you're the point of attack and ability to quarterback the team.

    Minus the defensive part, Calderons numbers i think would exceed any of those guys if he had a supporting cast that could put the ball in the hoop.

    The fact that he is averaging almost 9 APG, is quite impressive when you look at the personnel and the system.

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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    Big men win you championships. Any composed pure-PG would do if they have real big men around them. Tim Duncan, Tyson Chandler, Dirk nowitzki, KG, Shaq and very soon Lebron and KD.
    Derrick Rose is on the perfect team to be the next score first point guard to win a title. The Bulls defend, rebound and have very good role players surrounding him. I think the Bulls are somewhat similar to Isiah Thomas' Pistons.

    Other than that and unless Michael Jordan is on your team, I think you need a star big man to win a title. The game has been proven to be played best from the inside out... And teams that control the paint usually win championships.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    In the case of the Piston, yes, they've needed a star PG to win all of their titles.

    A star isn't a must at any one particular position to win a title, but you do need stars in general and just as important you need cohesiveness. Most of the PGs mentioned in post #1 are glue guys.

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    You don't need a star PG but you need a star. If that star was your PG I think you could potentially win a title. But a team needs a quality big (or two) and an all-world talent.

    I think the best strategy for winning a title is to have a super-star / franchise player and at least another guy on the team that is a perennial all-star.

    Shaq/Kobe, Shaq/Wade, Duncan/Parker/Ginobili, Jordan/Pippen, Garnett/Pierce/Allen, Nowitski/Kidd/Chandler, etc.

    We are entering a new age though. Rose for example could lead the Bulls to a title - but if I had to bet money, I don't like the Bulls chances as they are missing another key talent.

    Toronto doesn't need a star PG, but one that fits the system adequately.. What they are missing is a franchise player and that all-star. They have a ways to go. I see Val hopefully one day becoming that perennial all-star, but I'm not sure if he would be a franchise altering player. Hopefully we get that guy in the 2012 draft.

    Or Toronto could try to mimic Detroit - but that is like catching lightning in a bottle - breaking that bottle, finding another one, and then catching more lightning in that new bottle - ie, it will be a tough way to do it but anything is possible.

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    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Not taking anything away from Chauncey but he still had Big Ben in his prime and Rasheed Wallace.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Not taking away from Ben and Sheed but they had Billups in his prime. Billups arguably was the best two way PG in the league that year and he was clutch. Stats don't do his impact justice. He was the total package.

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    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    I guess we are saying the same thing.

    very solid PG - Billups, Fisher, Kidd can be clutch and even MVPs when you have star big men doing the dirty work. Nothing went past Big Ben that year. As for Shaq he was the scoring rebounding blocking machine.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    No, no, no, we're not saying the same thing. Billups was far more than "very solid" the year the Pistons won the title.

    And no one player has ever won anything. You can't win it with one standout at any position.

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    there is no recipe for winning it all in the nba, why do you think such few teams have won the title?

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    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    True. You cannot win it with one standout.

    However, you can win it with two star big men and one solid PG as we have seen in the past.

    You cannot win it with one star PG. Even PGs like Rose who come once a decade. The bulls will learn that this year. Their big men are not good enough to win them championships.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Zeke and Magic dominated the 80's. No one is going to suggest that they did it all themselves but then again no one is suggesting that any PG or any other positional player for that matter can do it all themselves.

    I think you're making this too simplistic. There is a lot more going on than:

    star bigman A + star bigman B = ∞ NBA Titles

    Just like there's a lot more going on when Billups and Zeke pretty much dominated their position in the post-season the years the Pistons won rings.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    True. You cannot win it with one standout.

    However, you can win it with two star big men and one solid PG as we have seen in the past.

    You cannot win it with one star PG. Even PGs like Rose who come once a decade. The bulls will learn that this year. Their big men are not good enough to win them championships.
    Yeh, I think the combo of Rose-Deng-Noah has the make-up of a championship ... but they need a scoring SG, and inside threat at PF ... the Boozer signing has given them lots of regular season wins, but can it carry them through the finals? Doubt it.

    As for the subject of the thread, everyone has a different idea on what wins a championship: Many say bigs (Duncan), sometimes it's team balance and chemistry (recent Pistons), or just greatness in whatever form it comes ... Shaq-Kobe, Kobe-Pau, Jordan-Pippen.

    How about Stockton and Malone? If a GM was looking for a championship blueprint, they seem like they should be it - but they met Michael Jordan ... No formula ... talent, and chemistry ...
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    You've gotta say ... A big combination of Jonas Valanciunas and Anthony Davis would have people thinking multiple rings in the future! But it would depend on what was around them ...
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Re the op, I believe a distinction should be made between the stats of the PGs pre and post the no-hand-checking rule. The game has changed for the pg since where he more easily able to be an offensive force if he can. Hence the new crop of high scoring superstar calibre players like Nash, Rose, Westbrook, CP, DW and Lin

    The superstar moniker tends to also be given to high scoring and rebounding (defensive) players who tended to be those without the ball (recipients)...typically the bigs. The only true superstar pg of the previous generation from stats and what I have read is Oscar Robertson. I suppose Jerry West and Walt Frazier could be included here. These guys were really great because they scored and dished inspite of the hand check/physical play.

    edit...forgot about Magic
    Last edited by Bendit; Mon Apr 2nd, 2012 at 02:10 PM.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Re the op, I believe a distinction should be made between the stats of the PGs pre and post the no-hand-checking rule. The game has changed for the pg since where he more easily able to be an offensive force if he can. Hence the new crop of high scoring superstar calibre players like Nash, Rose, Westbrook, CP, DW and Lin

    The superstar moniker tends to also be given to high scoring and rebounding (defensive) players who tended to be those without the ball (recipients)...typically the bigs. The only true superstar pg of the previous generation from stats and what I have read is Oscar Robertson. I suppose Jerry West and Walt Frazier could be included here. These guys were really great because they scored and dished inspite of the hand check/physical play.

    edit...forgot about Magic
    Stockton and Payton were star PG on good teams too. They could play great defense and make their teammates better on offense.

    An ideal PG is one who can slow down the opposition's point of attack and make their own team's offense greater than the sum of the parts, with their court vision and passing abilities.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    What I've noticed about most championship teams from the past 25 years, is that the most common formula is a star ball-dominating guard and a star big.

    Lakers: Magic & Worthy/Kareem
    Pistons: Thomas & Laimbeer
    Bulls: Jordan*
    Rockets: Drexler & Olajuwon
    Spurs: Robinson/Duncan*
    Lakers: Kobe & Shaq
    Spurs: Parker & Duncan
    Pistons: Billups*
    Heat: Wade & Shaq
    Celtics: Pierce & Garnet
    Lakers: Kobe & Gasol
    Mavs: Kidd & Nowitzki

    There were obviously 3 exceptions:
    1. Jordan didn't have a true dominant big, at least offensively, but Cartwright/Grant/Pippen and then Longley/Rodman/Pippen were certainly stellar defense/rebounding front courts. Jordan was just Jordan.
    2. The first of four Spurs titles featured Robinson and Duncan. Avery Johnsonwas a pretty good PG running the show, even if he wasn't the headliner.
    3. Detroit's 03-04 championship team didn't have any truly dominant big and won more as a team, but Billups definitely provided the PG leadership.


    I think a team needs the following ingredients to make a championship team:
    1. a dominant ball-handler who can penetrate off the dribble and has the vision/passing to make his entire team better (PG/SG)
    2. a big defensive anchor to protect the paint/rim and block/alter shots (C/PF)
    3. a dominant defensive rebounder (C/PF)
    4. a lockdown perimeter defender, to cover the opposing team's primary ball handler (PG/SG/SF)
    5. a low-post player who can finish at the rim, reak havoc on the offensive glass and pass out of double-teams (C/PF)
    6. a consistent spot-up 3pt shooter (PG/SG/SF)

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    Raptors Republic Starter knickz's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    there is no recipe for winning it all in the nba, why do you think such few teams have won the title?
    anybody with a brain should know the nba is rigged
    "the raptors were my fav team growing up"-kevin durant

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