Do you really need a Star Point Guard to win a Title?

[Thornbury]

Name a bulls team with a dominant big man. Right, they never had one

[saints91]

You definitely don't need a dominate big man. In the Pistons case they built a complimentary team with players who new their roles. There has to be a clutch player (Jordan, The Dream, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan etc.), you need a second go to guy (Pippen, Robinson, Kenny "The Jet", Gasol etc) but then you need a cast of players who buy in and play their roles and compliment (Horry, Rodman, Kerr, Otis Thorpe, Ben Wallace). It's very difficult to put together the perfect combination of personalities.

In our case I would see Bargs being a perfect number two, to a dynamic wingman. Our SF almost has to have a similar game as Bargs, maybe a bit more rebounding skills. If Bargs is sitting out at the three point line we need a SF to man the post. I think without a reliable scorer at the SG position you need one at the 1. I've always loved the glue guys at PG, but you need one guy that is deadly in the back court. A Centre to me has to be a guy that eats up the lane, doesn't need to score but hits the glass and is the anchor of the D. We can win with Bargs but you have to make some unorthodox moves at the other positions to work with his unique talents.

[ReubenJRD]

In this case this could be used for an argument on why Jose should stay.

[ReubenJRD]

Jose is a pure pass-first point guard, which most of those guys up top are. Jose has proven to be able to get others the ball, and that is something needed when going into a superstar ridden playoffs.

The difference is with the superstar point guards (other than Derrick Rose) don't have a perfect all-around team to surround him... I mean the Clippers are good, but they don't have that experience, especially where the big men need to be fairly experienced in the playoffs (Deandre Jordan, Blake Griffin.) Losing Billups really hurt that team.

I don't put Westbrook in that superstar group yet, but he is closing in, but if people put him in a superstar status. You could than say 2 of the superstar point guards have a the overall talent to contend IMO.

Until we see a superstar point guard get to the finals AND win, you don't exactly need that superstar point guard.. It would most definitely be nice! But without a good team to surround him to receive the ball, there isn't a large ability for them to be successful.

[ReubenJRD]

You definitely don't need a dominate big man. In the Pistons case they built a complimentary team with players who new their roles. There has to be a clutch player (Jordan, The Dream, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan etc.), you need a second go to guy (Pippen, Robinson, Kenny "The Jet", Gasol etc) but then you need a cast of players who buy in and play their roles and compliment (Horry, Rodman, Kerr, Otis Thorpe, Ben Wallace). It's very difficult to put together the perfect combination of personalities.

They need to have experience though, and I think IMO, it's the same situation. Without the talented environment to surround them, they won't be successful. I.E Dwight Howard and surround talent. Chris Paul and lack of experience.

If you notice though, too Michael, Kobe, Magic, and Bird won with a talented big man, dominant post presence, or some type of big man that dominated whether it was defensively or offensively.

[draftedraptor]

You definitely don't need a dominate big man. In the Pistons case they built a complimentary team with players who new their roles. There has to be a clutch player (Jordan, The Dream, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan etc.), you need a second go to guy (Pippen, Robinson, Kenny "The Jet", Gasol etc) but then you need a cast of players who buy in and play their roles and compliment (Horry, Rodman, Kerr, Otis Thorpe, Ben Wallace). It's very difficult to put together the perfect combination of personalities.

In our case I would see Bargs being a perfect number two, to a dynamic wingman. Our SF almost has to have a similar game as Bargs, maybe a bit more rebounding skills. If Bargs is sitting out at the three point line we need a SF to man the post. I think without a reliable scorer at the SG position you need one at the 1. I've always loved the glue guys at PG, but you need one guy that is deadly in the back court. A Centre to me has to be a guy that eats up the lane, doesn't need to score but hits the glass and is the anchor of the D. We can win with Bargs but you have to make some unorthodox moves at the other positions to work with his unique talents.

I have a lot to say about our 'dynamic wingman'. However, lets not turn this to a Bargnani discussion.

[bounty]

Jose is a pure pass-first point guard, which most of those guys up top are. Jose has proven to be able to get others the ball, and that is something needed when going into a superstar ridden playoffs.

The difference is with the superstar point guards (other than Derrick Rose) don't have a perfect all-around team to surround him... I mean the Clippers are good, but they don't have that experience, especially where the big men need to be fairly experienced in the playoffs (Deandre Jordan, Blake Griffin.) Losing Billups really hurt that team.

I don't put Westbrook in that superstar group yet, but he is closing in, but if people put him in a superstar status. You could than say 2 of the superstar point guards have a the overall talent to contend IMO.

Until we see a superstar point guard get to the finals AND win, you don't exactly need that superstar point guard.. It would most definitely be nice! But without a good team to surround him to receive the ball, there isn't a large ability for them to be successful.

It is a bit more difficult to build around a Point Guard than it is to build around another type of player. The reason for this being is that most Point Guards are smaller guys, and while guys like Allen Iverson and Derrick Rose might be some really tough players, there is only a certain amoung of punishment they can take. We often see great point guards like CP3, and D-Will in Utah, and even AI and The Glove, they all had great regular seasons, led their teams deep into the playoffs, but in the end they just didn't have enough. And while I agree that AI had garbage around him, and CP3's team overachieved imensly, and same with DRose and his Buls right now(Although you could arugue that without DRose they are still a 53 win team per 82 game schedule)

Think about the complimentry pieces Dirk needed for a tittle. Veterean pg that can distribute and knock down the three, veteran wing that can get you 15 a game and make clutch shots. Wing defender that can give you somthing on offense, and shut down the opposition's best player, big man that does all the dirty work, not an offensive force, good rebounder, but protects the pain, bakcup big that let's your starter play more freely, wing defender that doesn't end the games, but starts and gives you some agression, and a plucky spark plug off the bench that gets you quick points.

Now who was teh second best player on that team. Jason Terry? Terry right now would be teh 4th best player on teh Heat, 5th best on the Lakers, 3rd or 4th on the Knicks depending on how you feel about Lin, and 4 th best on the Bulls if you rank him ahead of Noah.

I believe it's easiest to build around big men, PF or C's, a bit harder around Wings, harder the smaller they get, and tougher around smaller point guards. Look back at the team that Isaiah had around him. he had Dumars, Edwards, Aguire, Laimbeer, Johnson, Salley, and Rodman. That team was extremely defensive minded and had the perfect players around Thomas, but you could argue that they had quite a bit of talent, a lot in fact, and just for comparison purposes and sort of to glorigy AI even more, look at who he had. He had a binch of big guys who weren't the most skilled offensive guys like Mutombo and Ratliff. They weren't very good post up players and most of their points would come off of putback dunks and easy dumpoffs and layups. And he also had McKie, but nothing to write home about or anything. He didn't have one other guy that could create a shot for himself, and I believe that he is the best Point since Magic, and if AI had Rose's team, they would be unstopable.

In the playoffs, one of Rose's biggest problems was that he had to do it all himself, and didn't have any help when a 6-8 265 monster was guarding him(although people fail to realize that it was Lebron that Roe was afraid of, it was all of that help in the middle, Haselm and Anthony just waiting for him down there, but that's a story for another time). Boozer is still a quality player. He isn't what he was in Utah, but he can still get you 20 points on any given night and is still a good post up player. Deng can create his own shot, knock down the three and do all the little things, and the thing we're all missing is that RIp Hamilton is still hurt. There were a couple games in Janruary in which he did play, and he still has it. He needs to get healthy first and foremost, but if he can be another offensive threat for teh Bulls and take some of the burden off of DRose's shoulders, I honestly like them over the Heat, and I believe they and the Thundr would be very evenly matched.

In short, to build around a PG, you need a go-to big, a big defensive minded guard that can shoot next to them, a rebounding and defensive 4 or 5, and a three guard that can create for himself, along with guys off the vench that can spread the floor and that will open driving lanes for the penetrater. That's a lot more than what say a Dirk had to work with, although AI came awfully close to doing it without many fo those pieces, and I believe a lot of AI's complimentry guys were hurt if I'm not mistaken.

[bounty]

In this case this could be used for an argument on why Jose should stay.

That is one of the reasons why i made this thread

[draftedraptor]

Name a bulls team with a dominant big man. Right, they never had one

I can name a few that come to mind immediately. surely they were dominant :
Raptor Charles Oakley
Horace Grant
Cartwright
Dennis the menace - all timer? leader in rebounds for 6-7 seasons?
Scottie Pippen - surely a key man in all their wins

[saints91]

I can name a few that come to mind immediately. surely they were dominant :
Raptor Charles Oakley
Horace Grant
Cartwright
Dennis the menace - all timer? leader in rebounds for 6-7 seasons?
Scottie Pippen - surely a key man in all their wins

Oakley wasn't around for the championships, and Cartwright was not dominant. Rodman and Horace Grant are definitely huge players in their championship runs. Pippen I wouldn't really classify him as a big man. He was a SF, wingman, and great one!

[ReubenJRD]

It is a bit more difficult to build around a Point Guard than it is to build around another type of player. The reason for this being is that most Point Guards are smaller guys, and while guys like Allen Iverson and Derrick Rose might be some really tough players, there is only a certain amoung of punishment they can take. We often see great point guards like CP3, and D-Will in Utah, and even AI and The Glove, they all had great regular seasons, led their teams deep into the playoffs, but in the end they just didn't have enough. And while I agree that AI had garbage around him, and CP3's team overachieved imensly, and same with DRose and his Buls right now(Although you could arugue that without DRose they are still a 53 win team per 82 game schedule)

Think about the complimentry pieces Dirk needed for a tittle. Veterean pg that can distribute and knock down the three, veteran wing that can get you 15 a game and make clutch shots. Wing defender that can give you somthing on offense, and shut down the opposition's best player, big man that does all the dirty work, not an offensive force, good rebounder, but protects the pain, bakcup big that let's your starter play more freely, wing defender that doesn't end the games, but starts and gives you some agression, and a plucky spark plug off the bench that gets you quick points.

Now who was teh second best player on that team. Jason Terry? Terry right now would be teh 4th best player on teh Heat, 5th best on the Lakers, 3rd or 4th on the Knicks depending on how you feel about Lin, and 4 th best on the Bulls if you rank him ahead of Noah.

I believe it's easiest to build around big men, PF or C's, a bit harder around Wings, harder the smaller they get, and tougher around smaller point guards. Look back at the team that Isaiah had around him. he had Dumars, Edwards, Aguire, Laimbeer, Johnson, Salley, and Rodman. That team was extremely defensive minded and had the perfect players around Thomas, but you could argue that they had quite a bit of talent, a lot in fact, and just for comparison purposes and sort of to glorigy AI even more, look at who he had. He had a binch of big guys who weren't the most skilled offensive guys like Mutombo and Ratliff. They weren't very good post up players and most of their points would come off of putback dunks and easy dumpoffs and layups. And he also had McKie, but nothing to write home about or anything. He didn't have one other guy that could create a shot for himself, and I believe that he is the best Point since Magic, and if AI had Rose's team, they would be unstopable.

In the playoffs, one of Rose's biggest problems was that he had to do it all himself, and didn't have any help when a 6-8 265 monster was guarding him(although people fail to realize that it was Lebron that Roe was afraid of, it was all of that help in the middle, Haselm and Anthony just waiting for him down there, but that's a story for another time). Boozer is still a quality player. He isn't what he was in Utah, but he can still get you 20 points on any given night and is still a good post up player. Deng can create his own shot, knock down the three and do all the little things, and the thing we're all missing is that RIp Hamilton is still hurt. There were a couple games in Janruary in which he did play, and he still has it. He needs to get healthy first and foremost, but if he can be another offensive threat for teh Bulls and take some of the burden off of DRose's shoulders, I honestly like them over the Heat, and I believe they and the Thundr would be very evenly matched.

In short, to build around a PG, you need a go-to big, a big defensive minded guard that can shoot next to them, a rebounding and defensive 4 or 5, and a three guard that can create for himself, along with guys off the vench that can spread the floor and that will open driving lanes for the penetrater. That's a lot more than what say a Dirk had to work with, although AI came awfully close to doing it without many fo those pieces, and I believe a lot of AI's complimentry guys were hurt if I'm not mistaken.

I agree with all your points, I don't know if you were arguing with me or stating points that justify mine? But I'm agreeing with the original post... You don't need a superstar point guard to win a title, just one that can get people the ball, one with experience, one with the ability keep the defense honest.

[ReubenJRD]

It is a bit more difficult to build around a Point Guard than it is to build around another type of player. The reason for this being is that most Point Guards are smaller guys, and while guys like Allen Iverson and Derrick Rose might be some really tough players, there is only a certain amoung of punishment they can take. We often see great point guards like CP3, and D-Will in Utah, and even AI and The Glove, they all had great regular seasons, led their teams deep into the playoffs, but in the end they just didn't have enough. And while I agree that AI had garbage around him, and CP3's team overachieved imensly, and same with DRose and his Buls right now(Although you could arugue that without DRose they are still a 53 win team per 82 game schedule)

Think about the complimentry pieces Dirk needed for a tittle. Veterean pg that can distribute and knock down the three, veteran wing that can get you 15 a game and make clutch shots. Wing defender that can give you somthing on offense, and shut down the opposition's best player, big man that does all the dirty work, not an offensive force, good rebounder, but protects the pain, bakcup big that let's your starter play more freely, wing defender that doesn't end the games, but starts and gives you some agression, and a plucky spark plug off the bench that gets you quick points.

Now who was teh second best player on that team. Jason Terry? Terry right now would be teh 4th best player on teh Heat, 5th best on the Lakers, 3rd or 4th on the Knicks depending on how you feel about Lin, and 4 th best on the Bulls if you rank him ahead of Noah.

I believe it's easiest to build around big men, PF or C's, a bit harder around Wings, harder the smaller they get, and tougher around smaller point guards. Look back at the team that Isaiah had around him. he had Dumars, Edwards, Aguire, Laimbeer, Johnson, Salley, and Rodman. That team was extremely defensive minded and had the perfect players around Thomas, but you could argue that they had quite a bit of talent, a lot in fact, and just for comparison purposes and sort of to glorigy AI even more, look at who he had. He had a binch of big guys who weren't the most skilled offensive guys like Mutombo and Ratliff. They weren't very good post up players and most of their points would come off of putback dunks and easy dumpoffs and layups. And he also had McKie, but nothing to write home about or anything. He didn't have one other guy that could create a shot for himself, and I believe that he is the best Point since Magic, and if AI had Rose's team, they would be unstopable.

In the playoffs, one of Rose's biggest problems was that he had to do it all himself, and didn't have any help when a 6-8 265 monster was guarding him(although people fail to realize that it was Lebron that Roe was afraid of, it was all of that help in the middle, Haselm and Anthony just waiting for him down there, but that's a story for another time). Boozer is still a quality player. He isn't what he was in Utah, but he can still get you 20 points on any given night and is still a good post up player. Deng can create his own shot, knock down the three and do all the little things, and the thing we're all missing is that RIp Hamilton is still hurt. There were a couple games in Janruary in which he did play, and he still has it. He needs to get healthy first and foremost, but if he can be another offensive threat for teh Bulls and take some of the burden off of DRose's shoulders, I honestly like them over the Heat, and I believe they and the Thundr would be very evenly matched.

In short, to build around a PG, you need a go-to big, a big defensive minded guard that can shoot next to them, a rebounding and defensive 4 or 5, and a three guard that can create for himself, along with guys off the vench that can spread the floor and that will open driving lanes for the penetrater. That's a lot more than what say a Dirk had to work with, although AI came awfully close to doing it without many fo those pieces, and I believe a lot of AI's complimentry guys were hurt if I'm not mistaken.

I agree with all your points, I don't know if you were arguing with me or stating points that justify mine? But I'm agreeing with the original post... You don't need a superstar point guard to win a title, just one that can get people the ball, one with experience, one with the ability keep the defense honest.

With my points, I was trying to justify that not many superstar point guards get very far. If you can see, not a single superstar point guard has won a ring yet. Unless you fit Magic Johnson under that bold. I guess you can push Billups in there as well.

[bounty]

I agree with all your points, I don't know if you were arguing with me or stating points that justify mine? But I'm agreeing with the original post... You don't need a superstar point guard to win a title, just one that can get people the ball, one with experience, one with the ability keep the defense honest.

Sorry i didnt mean to make it sound like im arguing with you

[ReubenJRD]

My top 5 point guards.

1 - Derrick Rose
2 - Chris Paul
3 - Rajon Rondo
4 - Steve Nash
5 - Deron Williams/Russel Westbrook (tied for 5th IMO)

Only one of them has ever won a championship. What can you say about that? You don't necessarily need a superstar point guard. But one thing you can say is they don't have the team around them. More specifically Deron Williams, Steve Nash, and Chris Paul, even Rondo with the aging players.

[ReubenJRD]

Sorry i didnt mean to make it sound like im arguing with you

No worries lol but yeah +1 on your points.