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Do you really need a Star Point Guard to win a Title?

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  • #46
    RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    No worries lol but yeah +1 on your points.

    Cool Thanks

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    • #47
      All I know is that it won't matter if we get a superstar or two if in the end they are surrounded with crap players. on the other hand, if all we get are a few all-stars but with a supporting cast that compliments each other, then we'd have a better shot. It all starts with how the team is built to work together, having the correct system in place, and players buying into that system. So many factors and so many things have to work out in order to be successful, and not as simple as adding one player. that only works when you already have decent players to begin with. So do you really need a star point guard? No. But you need a good TEAM.

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      • #48
        jlongs wrote: View Post
        All I know is that it won't matter if we get a superstar or two if in the end they are surrounded with crap players. on the other hand, if all we get are a few all-stars but with a supporting cast that compliments each other, then we'd have a better shot. It all starts with how the team is built to work together, having the correct system in place, and players buying into that system. So many factors and so many things have to work out in order to be successful, and not as simple as adding one player. that only works when you already have decent players to begin with. So do you really need a star point guard? No. But you need a good TEAM.
        There was a conversation about what it takes to win a title awhile back and I believe it was found that you need to have a megastar to win a basketball championship. The Dallas Mavericks and Detroit Pistons (from a few years ago) seemed to have gone against that trend and were built around a great team with a lot of experience and complimentary pieces. Here is a list of the past 20 champions (wikipedia):

        1981 Houston Rockets 2–4 Boston Celtics
        1982 Los Angeles Lakers 4–2 Philadelphia 76ers
        1983 Los Angeles Lakers 0–4 Philadelphia 76ers
        1984[e] Los Angeles Lakers 3–4 Boston Celtics
        1985 Los Angeles Lakers 4–2 Boston Celtics
        1986 Houston Rockets 2–4 Boston Celtics
        1987 Los Angeles Lakers 4–2 Boston Celtics
        1988 Los Angeles Lakers 4–3 Detroit Pistons
        1989 Los Angeles Lakers 0–4 Detroit Pistons
        1990 Portland Trail Blazers 1–4 Detroit Pistons
        1991 Los Angeles Lakers 1–4 Chicago Bulls
        1992 Portland Trail Blazers 2–4 Chicago Bulls
        1993 Phoenix Suns 2–4 Chicago Bulls
        1994 Houston Rockets 4–3 New York Knicks
        1995 Houston Rockets 4–0 Orlando Magic
        1996 Seattle SuperSonics 2–4 Chicago Bulls
        1997 Utah Jazz 2–4 Chicago Bulls
        1998 Utah Jazz 2–4 Chicago Bulls
        1999 San Antonio Spurs 4–1 New York Knicks
        2000 Los Angeles Lakers 4–2 Indiana Pacers
        2001 Los Angeles Lakers 4–1 Philadelphia 76ers
        2002 Los Angeles Lakers 4–0 New Jersey Nets
        2003 San Antonio Spurs 4–2 New Jersey Nets
        2004 Los Angeles Lakers 1–4 Detroit Pistons
        2005 San Antonio Spurs 4–3 Detroit Pistons
        2006 Dallas Mavericks 2–4 Miami Heat [82]
        2007 San Antonio Spurs 4–0 Cleveland Cavaliers
        2008 Los Angeles Lakers 2–4 Boston Celtics
        2009 Los Angeles Lakers 4–1 Orlando Magic
        2010 Los Angeles Lakers 4–3 Boston Celtics
        2011 Dallas Mavericks 4–2 Miami Heat

        Based on a quick glance and some of the arguments in this thread, it is apparent that you do not need an all-star point guard. Things that help:

        1. Play in Boston or LA
        2. Have a megastar (Michael Jordan)
        3. Have a player that is on the All-Defensive Team (last for the Raptors was Doug Christie? Not even sure if he was on the Raps when he won it)
        4. Have a guard (point guard or shooting guard) that can create his own shot consistently (Wade)

        We can't control a couple of those, so I think the needs on my list would be:
        1. A starter that is on the All-Defensive Team (could JV be that guy?)
        2. A starter in the All-star game (could Bargs be that guy?)
        3. A 1 or 2 that can break down the defense regularly (?? Don't think anyone fits this... yet)
        “Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
        ― John Wooden

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        • #49
          The Coach wrote: View Post
          4. Have a guard (point guard or shooting guard) that can create his own shot consistently (Wade)
          This is one of the utmost important characteristics of Championship teams. They don't need to be Wade or Kobe or the GOAT but they do need to be able to break down guys in the one on one, have the court vision to be able to make the right pass and to be able to step back and hit the long range shot. It helps if they can defend at least adequately as well. You look at teams who have won without superstar guards you still see a bunch of guys who fit a lot of those characteristics. The Mavs had Terry and Barea play out of their minds while having the ultra-steady Jason Kidd quarterbacking the show in the clutch. Tim Duncan would have won nothing in the last decade had he not had backup in the form of Manu and Parker. Both those guys can create for themselves and others. The same can be said about the Pistons with Rip and Billups. The Raptors are going to need this. They're probably not going to get it from DeMar... This is why I've been saying for him to thrive in Toronto long term he's going to have to pack on the muscle and make the transition to small forward. I think his game is best suited to that position anyway, he just needs to add the strength and mass to be able to stand his ground in post up situations.

          This is the point where someone is going to say DeRozan can never be big and strong enough to guard guys at the three. Well, that's my signal to mention 6'7", 185lbs, multi-NBA champion, producer of something like eight defensive award winning seasons, Bruce Bowen.

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          • #50
            James Harden

            The Long-Term Future Of The Thunder
            By: Jonathan Tjarks
            Apr 06, 2012 12:41 PM EDT


            With the development of Serge Ibaka and James Harden to go along with Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, the Oklahoma City Thunder have become one of the best teams in the NBA. The bad news? They’re not going to be able to pay all of them.

            Durant and Westbrook have already received maximum contract extensions, and over the next two years, Harden and Ibaka will be up for lucrative new deals as well.

            Harden, at only 22 years old, is an athletic 6’5, 220 five-tool shooting guard with a 6’10 wingspan. There are no holes in his game: he can create his own shot (shooting 49% from the floor), shoot from the perimeter (shooting 39% from beyond the arc), create shots for others (averaging 4.3 assists and 2.5 turnovers), defend both backcourt positions and rebound (4.6 per game).

            With both Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant over 30, Harden is the future of the shooting guard position. The only comparable young player is Eric Gordon, but he’s missed nearly the entire season with a knee injury. When Harden is a restricted free agent at the end of next season, there could be a number of attractive young teams (the Cleveland Cavaliers, Portland Trail Blazers, Houston Rockets, Washington Wizards) with the cap room to offer him a max contract.

            Ibaka, at only 22 years old, is an athletic 6’10, 235 power forward with a 7’4 wingspan who combines two valuable skills: elite shot-blocking and the ability to knock down a mid-range jumper. There are very few 6’10+ big men with the athletic ability to protect an NBA rim; there are even fewer who aren’t a liability offensively.

            To see how attractive he will be in free agency, all you have to do is look at what centers were getting last off-season: Nene ($67 million), Tyson Chandler ($60 million), Marc Gasol ($55 million), DeAndre Jordan ($44 million). Kwame Brown even received a $7 million one-year deal!

            The new CBA, with its punitive luxury tax penalties, is designed precisely to ensure that teams can’t afford to pay four players near maximum salaries. Leaving aside whether it’s actually in the best interests of the NBA to break up the Thunder, that leaves Oklahoma City with a tough decision: do they keep Harden or Ibaka?

            While Harden has much better statistics, Ibaka is a more important piece. A championship team needs length and athleticism at the rim, and there’s no one else on their roster who can replace him.

            Harden, in contrast, is a luxury.
            He’s the best passer of their three young perimeter stars, but having that many ball dominant players is a bit of a zero-sum game, as there’s only one basketball to go around. Giving him the ball at the end of games takes it out of the hands of Durant and Westbrook. The Thunder didn’t invest $170 million in their two All-NBA players to turn them into decoys.

            However, Oklahoma City would still need to replace his bench production, as well as the below market price they currently receive it at. There’s only one place to do that: the top of the NBA Draft.

            If Gerald Wallace is worth a first-round pick with only Top-3 protections, what would Harden fetch on the trading block? There could be two teams with multiple lottery picks in 2012: the Utah Jazz (who have the Golden State Warriors pick if it falls out of the Top-7) and the Portland Trail Blazers (who dealt Wallace to the Nets). Even in one of the most loaded drafts in a decade, as long as neither had the first overall pick, both would probably be willing to deal their two first-rounders, as well as a 2014 one, for Harden.

            Such a deal would setup Oklahoma City well into the next decade.

            Ever since the publication of “Moneyball”, every team in professional sports has been trying to exploit “market inefficiencies”. However, Michael Lewis’ book, while extremely entertaining, buried the lead: Oakland was able to field a great with a low payroll because they had a bumper crop of young All-Stars making relative peanuts. In professional sports, the greatest market inefficiency is, and will always be, the ability to accurately scout and develop talent.

            Over the last few years, the Oklahoma City front office has proven they are well ahead of the curve in terms of drafting philosophy. Anyone could have picked Durant, but Westbrook (No. 4 in 2008), Harden (No. 3 in 2009) and Ibaka (No. 24 in 2009) weren’t no brainers at the time. Even their misses -- Jeff Green (No. 5 in 2007), Byron Mullens (No. 24 in 2008) and Cole Aldrich (No. 11 in 2010) -- could still develop into usable 6’9+ players. In an industry where Jared Sullinger is considered a lottery pick, there are plenty of inefficiencies left to exploit.

            More intriguingly, there is a bumper crop of young shooting guards in the 2012 draft, at least four of them with All-Star ceilings: Terrence Ross (Washington), Jeremy Lamb (UConn), Bradley Beal (Florida) and Dion Waiters (Syracuse). With a top shooting guard guaranteed to fall, the Thunder could use their other lottery pick to gamble on an extremely talented 6’11+ project like Andre Drummond (UConn) or Perry Jones III (Baylor).

            No one is going to be perfect in the draft, but the Thunder have had a much higher success rate than most of the league. Why not give themselves as many chances as possible to use their competitive advantage?

            Dealing Harden would lower their chances of winning a championship in 2013, but it could open up a much larger title window. Let’s say they hit on one of the two picks they could acquire in 2012. In four years, they could spin this cycle forward again, flipping elite young talent looking for a payday into more elite young talent on cost-controlled salaries.

            Oklahoma City has one of the NBA’s most forward-thinking front offices. If they leverage Harden’s contract situation correctly, they could get so far ahead of the rest of the league their competition will never be able to catch up.



            Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/article...#ixzz1rMfBF0KW
            This article brought up a couple interesting points that related to this discussion:
            1. Quality wing players are a "luxury", while a defensive shot changer is a "need"

            My own additional thoughts:
            1. Is this draft really a bumper crop of 2 guards? I have only heard that its deep on bigs.
            2. What would you give for Harden... I believe he fits into the "hit the ground running" better than a rookie and he is still young. Is he worth our first round pick? Would it take more?
            “Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
            ― John Wooden

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