Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3
Results 41 to 50 of 50

Thread: Do you really need a Star Point Guard to win a Title?

  1. #41
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC.
    Posts
    4,057
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote bounty wrote: View Post
    It is a bit more difficult to build around a Point Guard than it is to build around another type of player. The reason for this being is that most Point Guards are smaller guys, and while guys like Allen Iverson and Derrick Rose might be some really tough players, there is only a certain amoung of punishment they can take. We often see great point guards like CP3, and D-Will in Utah, and even AI and The Glove, they all had great regular seasons, led their teams deep into the playoffs, but in the end they just didn't have enough. And while I agree that AI had garbage around him, and CP3's team overachieved imensly, and same with DRose and his Buls right now(Although you could arugue that without DRose they are still a 53 win team per 82 game schedule)

    Think about the complimentry pieces Dirk needed for a tittle. Veterean pg that can distribute and knock down the three, veteran wing that can get you 15 a game and make clutch shots. Wing defender that can give you somthing on offense, and shut down the opposition's best player, big man that does all the dirty work, not an offensive force, good rebounder, but protects the pain, bakcup big that let's your starter play more freely, wing defender that doesn't end the games, but starts and gives you some agression, and a plucky spark plug off the bench that gets you quick points.

    Now who was teh second best player on that team. Jason Terry? Terry right now would be teh 4th best player on teh Heat, 5th best on the Lakers, 3rd or 4th on the Knicks depending on how you feel about Lin, and 4 th best on the Bulls if you rank him ahead of Noah.

    I believe it's easiest to build around big men, PF or C's, a bit harder around Wings, harder the smaller they get, and tougher around smaller point guards. Look back at the team that Isaiah had around him. he had Dumars, Edwards, Aguire, Laimbeer, Johnson, Salley, and Rodman. That team was extremely defensive minded and had the perfect players around Thomas, but you could argue that they had quite a bit of talent, a lot in fact, and just for comparison purposes and sort of to glorigy AI even more, look at who he had. He had a binch of big guys who weren't the most skilled offensive guys like Mutombo and Ratliff. They weren't very good post up players and most of their points would come off of putback dunks and easy dumpoffs and layups. And he also had McKie, but nothing to write home about or anything. He didn't have one other guy that could create a shot for himself, and I believe that he is the best Point since Magic, and if AI had Rose's team, they would be unstopable.

    In the playoffs, one of Rose's biggest problems was that he had to do it all himself, and didn't have any help when a 6-8 265 monster was guarding him(although people fail to realize that it was Lebron that Roe was afraid of, it was all of that help in the middle, Haselm and Anthony just waiting for him down there, but that's a story for another time). Boozer is still a quality player. He isn't what he was in Utah, but he can still get you 20 points on any given night and is still a good post up player. Deng can create his own shot, knock down the three and do all the little things, and the thing we're all missing is that RIp Hamilton is still hurt. There were a couple games in Janruary in which he did play, and he still has it. He needs to get healthy first and foremost, but if he can be another offensive threat for teh Bulls and take some of the burden off of DRose's shoulders, I honestly like them over the Heat, and I believe they and the Thundr would be very evenly matched.

    In short, to build around a PG, you need a go-to big, a big defensive minded guard that can shoot next to them, a rebounding and defensive 4 or 5, and a three guard that can create for himself, along with guys off the vench that can spread the floor and that will open driving lanes for the penetrater. That's a lot more than what say a Dirk had to work with, although AI came awfully close to doing it without many fo those pieces, and I believe a lot of AI's complimentry guys were hurt if I'm not mistaken.
    I agree with all your points, I don't know if you were arguing with me or stating points that justify mine? But I'm agreeing with the original post... You don't need a superstar point guard to win a title, just one that can get people the ball, one with experience, one with the ability keep the defense honest.

  2. #42
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC.
    Posts
    4,057
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote bounty wrote: View Post
    It is a bit more difficult to build around a Point Guard than it is to build around another type of player. The reason for this being is that most Point Guards are smaller guys, and while guys like Allen Iverson and Derrick Rose might be some really tough players, there is only a certain amoung of punishment they can take. We often see great point guards like CP3, and D-Will in Utah, and even AI and The Glove, they all had great regular seasons, led their teams deep into the playoffs, but in the end they just didn't have enough. And while I agree that AI had garbage around him, and CP3's team overachieved imensly, and same with DRose and his Buls right now(Although you could arugue that without DRose they are still a 53 win team per 82 game schedule)

    Think about the complimentry pieces Dirk needed for a tittle. Veterean pg that can distribute and knock down the three, veteran wing that can get you 15 a game and make clutch shots. Wing defender that can give you somthing on offense, and shut down the opposition's best player, big man that does all the dirty work, not an offensive force, good rebounder, but protects the pain, bakcup big that let's your starter play more freely, wing defender that doesn't end the games, but starts and gives you some agression, and a plucky spark plug off the bench that gets you quick points.

    Now who was teh second best player on that team. Jason Terry? Terry right now would be teh 4th best player on teh Heat, 5th best on the Lakers, 3rd or 4th on the Knicks depending on how you feel about Lin, and 4 th best on the Bulls if you rank him ahead of Noah.

    I believe it's easiest to build around big men, PF or C's, a bit harder around Wings, harder the smaller they get, and tougher around smaller point guards. Look back at the team that Isaiah had around him. he had Dumars, Edwards, Aguire, Laimbeer, Johnson, Salley, and Rodman. That team was extremely defensive minded and had the perfect players around Thomas, but you could argue that they had quite a bit of talent, a lot in fact, and just for comparison purposes and sort of to glorigy AI even more, look at who he had. He had a binch of big guys who weren't the most skilled offensive guys like Mutombo and Ratliff. They weren't very good post up players and most of their points would come off of putback dunks and easy dumpoffs and layups. And he also had McKie, but nothing to write home about or anything. He didn't have one other guy that could create a shot for himself, and I believe that he is the best Point since Magic, and if AI had Rose's team, they would be unstopable.

    In the playoffs, one of Rose's biggest problems was that he had to do it all himself, and didn't have any help when a 6-8 265 monster was guarding him(although people fail to realize that it was Lebron that Roe was afraid of, it was all of that help in the middle, Haselm and Anthony just waiting for him down there, but that's a story for another time). Boozer is still a quality player. He isn't what he was in Utah, but he can still get you 20 points on any given night and is still a good post up player. Deng can create his own shot, knock down the three and do all the little things, and the thing we're all missing is that RIp Hamilton is still hurt. There were a couple games in Janruary in which he did play, and he still has it. He needs to get healthy first and foremost, but if he can be another offensive threat for teh Bulls and take some of the burden off of DRose's shoulders, I honestly like them over the Heat, and I believe they and the Thundr would be very evenly matched.

    In short, to build around a PG, you need a go-to big, a big defensive minded guard that can shoot next to them, a rebounding and defensive 4 or 5, and a three guard that can create for himself, along with guys off the vench that can spread the floor and that will open driving lanes for the penetrater. That's a lot more than what say a Dirk had to work with, although AI came awfully close to doing it without many fo those pieces, and I believe a lot of AI's complimentry guys were hurt if I'm not mistaken.
    I agree with all your points, I don't know if you were arguing with me or stating points that justify mine? But I'm agreeing with the original post... You don't need a superstar point guard to win a title, just one that can get people the ball, one with experience, one with the ability keep the defense honest.

    With my points, I was trying to justify that not many superstar point guards get very far. If you can see, not a single superstar point guard has won a ring yet. Unless you fit Magic Johnson under that bold. I guess you can push Billups in there as well.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Rookie bounty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    164
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    I agree with all your points, I don't know if you were arguing with me or stating points that justify mine? But I'm agreeing with the original post... You don't need a superstar point guard to win a title, just one that can get people the ball, one with experience, one with the ability keep the defense honest.
    Sorry i didnt mean to make it sound like im arguing with you

  4. #44
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC.
    Posts
    4,057
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    My top 5 point guards.

    1 - Derrick Rose
    2 - Chris Paul
    3 - Rajon Rondo
    4 - Steve Nash
    5 - Deron Williams/Russel Westbrook (tied for 5th IMO)

    Only one of them has ever won a championship. What can you say about that? You don't necessarily need a superstar point guard. But one thing you can say is they don't have the team around them. More specifically Deron Williams, Steve Nash, and Chris Paul, even Rondo with the aging players.

  5. #45
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, BC.
    Posts
    4,057
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote bounty wrote: View Post
    Sorry i didnt mean to make it sound like im arguing with you
    No worries lol but yeah +1 on your points.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Rookie bounty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    164
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    No worries lol but yeah +1 on your points.

    Cool Thanks

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Starter
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    256
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    All I know is that it won't matter if we get a superstar or two if in the end they are surrounded with crap players. on the other hand, if all we get are a few all-stars but with a supporting cast that compliments each other, then we'd have a better shot. It all starts with how the team is built to work together, having the correct system in place, and players buying into that system. So many factors and so many things have to work out in order to be successful, and not as simple as adding one player. that only works when you already have decent players to begin with. So do you really need a star point guard? No. But you need a good TEAM.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic Starter The Coach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    330
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote jlongs wrote: View Post
    All I know is that it won't matter if we get a superstar or two if in the end they are surrounded with crap players. on the other hand, if all we get are a few all-stars but with a supporting cast that compliments each other, then we'd have a better shot. It all starts with how the team is built to work together, having the correct system in place, and players buying into that system. So many factors and so many things have to work out in order to be successful, and not as simple as adding one player. that only works when you already have decent players to begin with. So do you really need a star point guard? No. But you need a good TEAM.
    There was a conversation about what it takes to win a title awhile back and I believe it was found that you need to have a megastar to win a basketball championship. The Dallas Mavericks and Detroit Pistons (from a few years ago) seemed to have gone against that trend and were built around a great team with a lot of experience and complimentary pieces. Here is a list of the past 20 champions (wikipedia):

    1981 Houston Rockets 2–4 Boston Celtics
    1982 Los Angeles Lakers 4–2 Philadelphia 76ers
    1983 Los Angeles Lakers 0–4 Philadelphia 76ers
    1984[e] Los Angeles Lakers 3–4 Boston Celtics
    1985 Los Angeles Lakers 4–2 Boston Celtics
    1986 Houston Rockets 2–4 Boston Celtics
    1987 Los Angeles Lakers 4–2 Boston Celtics
    1988 Los Angeles Lakers 4–3 Detroit Pistons
    1989 Los Angeles Lakers 0–4 Detroit Pistons
    1990 Portland Trail Blazers 1–4 Detroit Pistons
    1991 Los Angeles Lakers 1–4 Chicago Bulls
    1992 Portland Trail Blazers 2–4 Chicago Bulls
    1993 Phoenix Suns 2–4 Chicago Bulls
    1994 Houston Rockets 4–3 New York Knicks
    1995 Houston Rockets 4–0 Orlando Magic
    1996 Seattle SuperSonics 2–4 Chicago Bulls
    1997 Utah Jazz 2–4 Chicago Bulls
    1998 Utah Jazz 2–4 Chicago Bulls
    1999 San Antonio Spurs 4–1 New York Knicks
    2000 Los Angeles Lakers 4–2 Indiana Pacers
    2001 Los Angeles Lakers 4–1 Philadelphia 76ers
    2002 Los Angeles Lakers 4–0 New Jersey Nets
    2003 San Antonio Spurs 4–2 New Jersey Nets
    2004 Los Angeles Lakers 1–4 Detroit Pistons
    2005 San Antonio Spurs 4–3 Detroit Pistons
    2006 Dallas Mavericks 2–4 Miami Heat [82]
    2007 San Antonio Spurs 4–0 Cleveland Cavaliers
    2008 Los Angeles Lakers 2–4 Boston Celtics
    2009 Los Angeles Lakers 4–1 Orlando Magic
    2010 Los Angeles Lakers 4–3 Boston Celtics
    2011 Dallas Mavericks 4–2 Miami Heat

    Based on a quick glance and some of the arguments in this thread, it is apparent that you do not need an all-star point guard. Things that help:

    1. Play in Boston or LA
    2. Have a megastar (Michael Jordan)
    3. Have a player that is on the All-Defensive Team (last for the Raptors was Doug Christie? Not even sure if he was on the Raps when he won it)
    4. Have a guard (point guard or shooting guard) that can create his own shot consistently (Wade)

    We can't control a couple of those, so I think the needs on my list would be:
    1. A starter that is on the All-Defensive Team (could JV be that guy?)
    2. A starter in the All-star game (could Bargs be that guy?)
    3. A 1 or 2 that can break down the defense regularly (?? Don't think anyone fits this... yet)
    “Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
    ― John Wooden

  9. #49
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    12,129
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote The Coach wrote: View Post
    4. Have a guard (point guard or shooting guard) that can create his own shot consistently (Wade)
    This is one of the utmost important characteristics of Championship teams. They don't need to be Wade or Kobe or the GOAT but they do need to be able to break down guys in the one on one, have the court vision to be able to make the right pass and to be able to step back and hit the long range shot. It helps if they can defend at least adequately as well. You look at teams who have won without superstar guards you still see a bunch of guys who fit a lot of those characteristics. The Mavs had Terry and Barea play out of their minds while having the ultra-steady Jason Kidd quarterbacking the show in the clutch. Tim Duncan would have won nothing in the last decade had he not had backup in the form of Manu and Parker. Both those guys can create for themselves and others. The same can be said about the Pistons with Rip and Billups. The Raptors are going to need this. They're probably not going to get it from DeMar... This is why I've been saying for him to thrive in Toronto long term he's going to have to pack on the muscle and make the transition to small forward. I think his game is best suited to that position anyway, he just needs to add the strength and mass to be able to stand his ground in post up situations.

    This is the point where someone is going to say DeRozan can never be big and strong enough to guard guys at the three. Well, that's my signal to mention 6'7", 185lbs, multi-NBA champion, producer of something like eight defensive award winning seasons, Bruce Bowen.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Starter The Coach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Edmonton, AB
    Posts
    330
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default James Harden

    The Long-Term Future Of The Thunder
    By: Jonathan Tjarks
    Apr 06, 2012 12:41 PM EDT


    With the development of Serge Ibaka and James Harden to go along with Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook, the Oklahoma City Thunder have become one of the best teams in the NBA. The bad news? They’re not going to be able to pay all of them.

    Durant and Westbrook have already received maximum contract extensions, and over the next two years, Harden and Ibaka will be up for lucrative new deals as well.

    Harden, at only 22 years old, is an athletic 6’5, 220 five-tool shooting guard with a 6’10 wingspan. There are no holes in his game: he can create his own shot (shooting 49% from the floor), shoot from the perimeter (shooting 39% from beyond the arc), create shots for others (averaging 4.3 assists and 2.5 turnovers), defend both backcourt positions and rebound (4.6 per game).

    With both Dwyane Wade and Kobe Bryant over 30, Harden is the future of the shooting guard position. The only comparable young player is Eric Gordon, but he’s missed nearly the entire season with a knee injury. When Harden is a restricted free agent at the end of next season, there could be a number of attractive young teams (the Cleveland Cavaliers, Portland Trail Blazers, Houston Rockets, Washington Wizards) with the cap room to offer him a max contract.

    Ibaka, at only 22 years old, is an athletic 6’10, 235 power forward with a 7’4 wingspan who combines two valuable skills: elite shot-blocking and the ability to knock down a mid-range jumper. There are very few 6’10+ big men with the athletic ability to protect an NBA rim; there are even fewer who aren’t a liability offensively.

    To see how attractive he will be in free agency, all you have to do is look at what centers were getting last off-season: Nene ($67 million), Tyson Chandler ($60 million), Marc Gasol ($55 million), DeAndre Jordan ($44 million). Kwame Brown even received a $7 million one-year deal!

    The new CBA, with its punitive luxury tax penalties, is designed precisely to ensure that teams can’t afford to pay four players near maximum salaries. Leaving aside whether it’s actually in the best interests of the NBA to break up the Thunder, that leaves Oklahoma City with a tough decision: do they keep Harden or Ibaka?

    While Harden has much better statistics, Ibaka is a more important piece. A championship team needs length and athleticism at the rim, and there’s no one else on their roster who can replace him.

    Harden, in contrast, is a luxury.
    He’s the best passer of their three young perimeter stars, but having that many ball dominant players is a bit of a zero-sum game, as there’s only one basketball to go around. Giving him the ball at the end of games takes it out of the hands of Durant and Westbrook. The Thunder didn’t invest $170 million in their two All-NBA players to turn them into decoys.

    However, Oklahoma City would still need to replace his bench production, as well as the below market price they currently receive it at. There’s only one place to do that: the top of the NBA Draft.

    If Gerald Wallace is worth a first-round pick with only Top-3 protections, what would Harden fetch on the trading block? There could be two teams with multiple lottery picks in 2012: the Utah Jazz (who have the Golden State Warriors pick if it falls out of the Top-7) and the Portland Trail Blazers (who dealt Wallace to the Nets). Even in one of the most loaded drafts in a decade, as long as neither had the first overall pick, both would probably be willing to deal their two first-rounders, as well as a 2014 one, for Harden.

    Such a deal would setup Oklahoma City well into the next decade.

    Ever since the publication of “Moneyball”, every team in professional sports has been trying to exploit “market inefficiencies”. However, Michael Lewis’ book, while extremely entertaining, buried the lead: Oakland was able to field a great with a low payroll because they had a bumper crop of young All-Stars making relative peanuts. In professional sports, the greatest market inefficiency is, and will always be, the ability to accurately scout and develop talent.

    Over the last few years, the Oklahoma City front office has proven they are well ahead of the curve in terms of drafting philosophy. Anyone could have picked Durant, but Westbrook (No. 4 in 2008), Harden (No. 3 in 2009) and Ibaka (No. 24 in 2009) weren’t no brainers at the time. Even their misses -- Jeff Green (No. 5 in 2007), Byron Mullens (No. 24 in 2008) and Cole Aldrich (No. 11 in 2010) -- could still develop into usable 6’9+ players. In an industry where Jared Sullinger is considered a lottery pick, there are plenty of inefficiencies left to exploit.

    More intriguingly, there is a bumper crop of young shooting guards in the 2012 draft, at least four of them with All-Star ceilings: Terrence Ross (Washington), Jeremy Lamb (UConn), Bradley Beal (Florida) and Dion Waiters (Syracuse). With a top shooting guard guaranteed to fall, the Thunder could use their other lottery pick to gamble on an extremely talented 6’11+ project like Andre Drummond (UConn) or Perry Jones III (Baylor).

    No one is going to be perfect in the draft, but the Thunder have had a much higher success rate than most of the league. Why not give themselves as many chances as possible to use their competitive advantage?

    Dealing Harden would lower their chances of winning a championship in 2013, but it could open up a much larger title window. Let’s say they hit on one of the two picks they could acquire in 2012. In four years, they could spin this cycle forward again, flipping elite young talent looking for a payday into more elite young talent on cost-controlled salaries.

    Oklahoma City has one of the NBA’s most forward-thinking front offices. If they leverage Harden’s contract situation correctly, they could get so far ahead of the rest of the league their competition will never be able to catch up.



    Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/article...#ixzz1rMfBF0KW
    This article brought up a couple interesting points that related to this discussion:
    1. Quality wing players are a "luxury", while a defensive shot changer is a "need"

    My own additional thoughts:
    1. Is this draft really a bumper crop of 2 guards? I have only heard that its deep on bigs.
    2. What would you give for Harden... I believe he fits into the "hit the ground running" better than a rookie and he is still young. Is he worth our first round pick? Would it take more?
    “Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
    ― John Wooden

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •