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Trade the pick: ESPN late to the party (274)

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  • #76
    draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    Josh is the same age as Bargs and is much better than him in every way as a C/PF.

    If he is ready to commit to us I would have no problem signing him. We don't want to sign the Deron Williams 2.0 who is hitting the free agency next year.

    Atlanta would need Bargnani + this year 1st rounder for him. Any trade which involves this year's lottery pick has to be a franchise player. And Josh with all his positives is still not a franchise player.
    Josh smith cant play C

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    • #77
      NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
      Josh smith cant play C
      His defense says otherwise :P
      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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      • #78
        NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
        Josh smith cant play C
        He has done it several times covering for Pachulia this season. Horford's injury has left Atlanta short there. But I agree with you ideally he is not a center.

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        • #79
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          If the Raptors have been planning for a top 5 pick and suddenly they are picking 9th, the scenario could very well play out. Going back to Colangelo's drafting skills, he might feel that a guy at 16 is better than the guy at 9 long term - despite what others media or GMs think. Quincy Miller, for example, is a player who has seen his stock fall but could be one of the highest reward picks in the draft with continued rehabilitation and strength training. DraftExpress.com currently has Miller at 18.
          Some key ideas I think you're missing here:

          • I don't think an NBA team plans around drafting anybody unless they're in a position of certainty, like drafting 1st overall or drafting after what they feel were consensus picks.
          • How does Colangelo know the guy he wants will go 16th overall? Any good player at the table isn't showing his cards. Those mock drafts are always wrong. No one thought JV was going to fall to #5 last year. No one thought Ed Davis was going to fall to #13 the year before. That's a couple examples close to home.
          • You need to ask yourself why Quincy Miller's stock has plummeted so much? He tore his ACL in high school and based on everything I've followed and saw he reminds me of Jonathan Bender. Great...


          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          And he also had a deal lined up with Detroit to trade a player each and their picks last year until CLE unexpectedly picked Thompson. Again, this comes back to his judgement of the players in the draft. By your own logic, if a player like Jrue Holiday could be had and he feels Holiday is better than the player available with his pick, clearly he makes the trade.
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          When the memo on the whole season has been to hit the ground running, you take the best players available and that best player might not be the draft pick
          Colangelo has been less successful when trading picks as opposed to using them. This is clear, and whether or not he was going to trade the pick last year is irrelevant. I'm not saying he wouldn't do it, I'm saying history indicates that he shouldn't do it. Of course there will be exceptions to the rule but I'd need more than this he said, she said stuff to continue on this path.

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          • #80
            Apollo wrote: View Post
            Some key ideas I think you're missing here:

            • I don't think an NBA team plans around drafting anybody unless they're in a position of certainty, like drafting 1st overall or drafting after what they feel were consensus picks.
            • How does Colangelo know the guy he wants will go 16th overall? Any good player at the table isn't showing his cards. Those mock drafts are always wrong. No one thought JV was going to fall to #5 last year. No one thought Ed Davis was going to fall to #13 the year before. That's a couple examples close to home.
            • You need to ask yourself why Quincy Miller's stock has plummeted so much? He tore his ACL in high school and based on everything I've followed and saw he reminds me of Jonathan Bender. Great...
            Some key words I think you're missing here:
            • If
            • Might
            • for example


            All implied hypothetical situations where I thought we had previously both agreed we have no idea what is going on in Colangelo's mind.

            Some key concepts I think you're missing here:
            • any draft pick trade would happen on draft night when who is available at what selection is known
            • trading the draft pick a month or two out of the draft is not very bright
            • remembering all this happens on draft night, but one of the points was say Moe Harkless or Quincy Miler (again, hypothetical) was atop BC's draft board. All the mock board and other GM's have those guys in the high teens but BC with his great talent evaluation skills in the draft feels those guys are better than the consensus picks in the 5-10 range. Why wouldn't he trade the pick if he can get another asset AND the player he truly covets at a lower pick? So putting it all together at the Raptors selection, they take the consensus best player available or the player another team wants and then another team takes the player BC wants later along with acquring another asset(s).



            Apollo wrote: View Post
            Colangelo has been less successful when trading picks as opposed to using them. This is clear, and whether or not he was going to trade the pick last year is irrelevant. I'm not saying he wouldn't do it, I'm saying history indicates that he shouldn't do it. Of course there will be exceptions to the rule but I'd need more than this he said, she said stuff to continue on this path.
            What does it say at the bottom of a prospectus? "Past performance does not guarantee future performance."
            I'm aware of Colangelo's history of moves. Here is every move he has made: http://hoopshype.com/general_manager..._colangelo.htm

            The point I attempted to make was to get the best player available. That best player might not be the pick (that was another hypothetical). Jrue Holiday, in the example I gave, is a proven, defensive minded NBA PG who is younger, the same age, or one year older than many of the PG's currently in this year's draft. Of course, the draft is based on taking the best player available and that player most likely will not be a PG when the Raptors pick. But that is not the issue I raised as that is a given. The point is what if Jrue Holiday can be had for the pick (or in combination of assets in a particular trade) and Holiday is deemed to be a better player and prospect than anything the Raptors could take with that selection. So if the memo is to hit the ground running and it is deemed trading the pick for Jrue Holiday (and hopefully other assets) is the best way to go about that, then trade the pick.

            Of course, this is all hypothetical and the odds of it happening in any respect is equivalent to me getting a call up to replace Gray in the starting lineup as the season continues onwards.
            Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:21 AM.

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            • #81
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              Some key words I think you're missing here:
              • If
              • Might
              • for example
              While I appreciate your opinion, I got those key words Matt. I just dodn't appreciate how you used them. You missed the mark in my opinion.

              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              Some key concepts I think you're missing here:
              • any draft pick trade would happen on draft night when who is available at what selection is known
              Really? Because I don't recall you ever mentioning exact time. You never mentioned the trade would happen after the draft. Is that what you're saying now?


              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              • trading the draft pick a month or two out of the draft is not very bright.
              I'm not suggesting you said that Matt. I'm suggesting if the Raptors name is called at#5, they're on the clock, they don't know who the heck is going to be there at #16. Typically when teams swap picks the team with the higher pick drafts the guy the other team wants. So, unless you have a crystal ball and have Colangelo on speed dial there are flaws to your "hypothetical" plan.

              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              • remembering all this happens on draft night, but one of the points was say Moe Harkless or Quincy Miler (again, hypothetical) was atop BC's draft board. All the mock board and other GM's have those guys in the high teens but BC with his great talent evaluation skills in the draft feels those guys are better than the consensus picks in the 5-10 range. Why wouldn't he trade the pick if he can get another asset AND the player he truly covets at a lower pick? So putting it all together at the Raptors selection, they take the best player available or the player another team wants and then another team takes the player BC wants later along with acquring another asset(s).
              Right. And so they trade they swap picks, move to #16 and Quincy Miller hypothetically gets drafted at #15. Bravo.

              Comment


              • #82
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                While I appreciate your opinion, I got those key words Matt. I just dodn't appreciate how you used them. You missed the mark in my opinion.

                Really? Because I don't recall you ever mentioning exact time. You never mentioned the trade would happen after the draft. Is that what you're saying now?



                I'm not suggesting you said that Matt. I'm suggesting if the Raptors name is called at#5, they're on the clock, they don't know who the heck is going to be there at #16. Typically when teams swap picks the team with the higher pick drafts the guy the other team wants. So, unless you have a crystal ball and have Colangelo on speed dial there are flaws to your "hypothetical" plan.

                Right. And so they trade they swap picks, move to #16 and Quincy Miller hypothetically gets drafted at #15. Bravo.
                Hypothetical trade would happen draft night. I don't recall you saying the trade would not happen draft night - so there you go.

                I thought we've agreed all along this is hypothetical. The crystal ball comment and Colangelo on speed dial is inappropriate given the parameters of the conversation. At what point have I claimed that anything I'm saying is what BC is thinking? I've gone out of my way to make that clear. Remember the title of this thread is "trade the pick". Maybe you should start a thread, "For the love of all that is sacred and pure, no matter what happens or is available on draft night, don't trade the pick under any circumstances!"

                I don't think you did get my point because the best player available was taken by the Raptors. If a trade can't be worked out, they still have the best player available.
                Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Apr 10, 2012, 09:42 AM.

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                • #83
                  I don't think you're getting it. The holder of the #16 pick will want Colangelo to select his guy. Holder of the #16 pick calls Colangelo on draft night:

                  #16 pick Owner: Yo, Bry, Bry, how's it going? We want the #5 pick and two of those big collars you're always sporting. We're willing to give you the #16 pick plus that dude we took a few years back that we know you like.

                  Colangelo: Sounds good. I'm looking to draft Quincy Miller and Chad Ford says he'll be on the board at #16. This works out great for us.

                  #16 pick Owner: Alright. Draft Cody Zeller for us. We love that guy and Chad Ford says he's going in the top six.

                  Colangelo: Done. You select Quincy Miller, just like we said.

                  An hour later...

                  David Stern: And with the 15th pick in the draft, "hypothetical team" hypothetically selects Quincy Miller.

                  Colangelo: Dammit!

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Apollo wrote: View Post
                    I don't think you're getting it. The holder of the #16 pick will want Colangelo to select his guy. Holder of the #16 pick calls Colangelo on draft night:

                    #16 pick Owner: Yo, Bry, Bry, how's it going? We want the #5 pick and two of those big collars you're always sporting. We're willing to give you the #16 pick plus that dude we took a few years back that we know you like.

                    Colangelo: Sounds good. I'm looking to draft Quincy Miller and Chad Ford says he'll be on the board at #16. This works out great for us.

                    #16 pick Owner: Alright. Draft Cody Zeller for us. We love that guy and Chad Ford says he's going in the top six.

                    Colangelo: Done. You select Quincy Miller, just like we said.

                    An hour later...

                    David Stern: And with the 15th pick in the draft, "hypothetical team" hypothetically selects Quincy Miller.

                    Colangelo: Dammit!
                    I think you have tunnel vision.

                    Your scenario is one way in which it can play out. It may or may not be the most likely.

                    How have so many draft night trades happened where picks are exchanged. Any trade would be contingent on the wanted players being available. This is why the Raptors would pick the best player available at their pick and if a possible trade does not work out, so be it. A perfect example is the Indiana-San Antonio trade. Do you think San Antonio handed over Hill before it was known Leonard would be available?

                    Here is something else I don't feel that has been considered and it is another unknown so I'll apologize now for making assumptions on Colangelo's behalf. What IF Colangelo feels Holiday is better than any player he could use his pick on. What if he traded the Raps pick for Holiday and 76er pick. So in keeping with hitting the ground running and getting the best player available, the Raps have that with Holiday then at the 76er pick they take the best player available no matter who it is or who BC hopes is available.

                    I don't think it is a stretch that a 21 year old, 6'4", defensive minded, NBA proven PG who can create for himself and has a solid outside shot would be the best player the Raptors can get with a pick in the 6-10 range. No, he is not a draft pick but he could fall under the umbrella of the best player available - thinking outside the box, of course.

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                    • #85
                      Mod fight! Mod fight!
                      @sweatpantsjer

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                      • #86
                        ceez wrote: View Post
                        Mod fight! Mod fight!
                        LOL.

                        Wow, I ain't gettin' in this one.
                        Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                        • #87
                          that is actually a sweet idea. We trade our pick for Holiday and 76ers pick and we draft Miller with their pick and we're all set

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                          • #88
                            We'd probably be able to draft Miller with our second rounder at this point
                            @sweatpantsjer

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                            • #89
                              ceez wrote: View Post
                              We'd probably be able to draft Miller with our second rounder at this point
                              nah he's projected just outside the lottery. And i'm talking about Quincy Miller

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                              • #90
                                So am I. If he does declare (I don't think he will) he'll be a late first round pick at best.
                                @sweatpantsjer

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