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    Raptors Republic Starter hotfuzz's Avatar
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    Default Are we really Rebuilding?

    This post from another Raptors fan site pretty much sums up my concerns

    http://www.raptorshq.com/2012/4/6/29...he-raps-future

    He pretty much says that this whole new "rebuilding' spin by Calengelo is just another way of building around Bargnani. We tried it once with CB4, and failed miserably, I have no idea why we are trying it again with an inferior player.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I don't agree that they're building around Bargnani. They're about to bring in JV and another high lotto pick. That's to add to another top ten lotto pick in Demar DeRozan and a final lotto pick in Ed Davis. When they built around Bosh they went out and either signed or traded for a bunch of guys to complement him. They're not doing that with Andrea. They're asking him to change to fit team. The concept is the opposite of what they did with Bosh.

    One more thought. They really need an editor over at the site.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't agree that they're building around Bargnani. They're about to bring in JV and another high lotto pick. That's to add to another top ten lotto pick in Demar DeRozan and a final lotto pick in Ed Davis. When they built around Bosh they went out and either signed or traded for a bunch of guys to complement him. They're not doing that with Andrea. They're asking him to change to fit team. The concept is the opposite of what they did with Bosh.

    One more thought. They really need an editor over at the site.
    "Bang on!"

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't agree that they're building around Bargnani. They're about to bring in JV and another high lotto pick. That's to add to another top ten lotto pick in Demar DeRozan and a final lotto pick in Ed Davis. When they built around Bosh they went out and either signed or traded for a bunch of guys to complement him. They're not doing that with Andrea. They're asking him to change to fit team. The concept is the opposite of what they did with Bosh.

    One more thought. They really need an editor over at the site.
    Who did BC bring in to build around Bosh? TJ Ford? Jermaine O'Neal?

    Why would he draft Bargnani if he conceeds he plays the same position as Bosh now? Wouldn't he of taken the opportunity with the first pick in the draft to get a talented complimentary piece for Bosh if you were building around him? What about the swing Bosh asked for? Colangelo took DeRozan as the no handle, learning to play 2 guard that couldn't help the team significantly at the time.

    I can't point to the bit pieces Colangelo acquired as an effort in building around a player, other than Turkoglu and even then it wasn't a compliment to Bosh's game and rather money burning a hole in his pocket in mho.

    Also for Andrea, maybe he's not trying to specifically build around him, but he's trying to do the same thing he did with Bosh. Acquiring players but still having your centre piece of the team in place. Why else would he declare him starter at the 4 before the season started? The problem in his thinking is that Andrea is only a piece. Him nor Derozan should have any special treatment over any other player on this team.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Why would he draft Bargnani if he conceeds he plays the same position as Bosh now? Wouldn't he of taken the opportunity with the first pick in the draft to get a talented complimentary piece for Bosh if you were building around him?
    Colangelo drafts the best player available and as stated many times by he himself, Bargnani was the best player available in his opinion.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Who did BC bring in to build around Bosh? TJ Ford? Jermaine O'Neal?
    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    What about the swing Bosh asked for?
    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    I can't point to the bit pieces Colangelo acquired as an effort in building around a player, other than Turkoglu and even then it wasn't a compliment to Bosh's game and rather money burning a hole in his pocket in mho.
    Lack of results doesn't equate to lack of effort or good intentions. Colangelo himself said many times that he was building around Bosh. He's not saying that about Bargnani.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Also for Andrea, maybe he's not trying to specifically build around him, but he's trying to do the same thing he did with Bosh.
    Prove it.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Why else would he declare him starter at the 4 before the season started?
    Because he's the most talented player on the team and it's blatantly obvious his talents are better suited to the 4.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    The problem in his thinking is that Andrea is only a piece. Him nor Derozan should have any special treatment over any other player on this team.
    I agree but that's not how life works. Colangelo is a guy trying to secure his job long term. He has to deal with politics and perceptions for example.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    one thing cut it out with this fuckin bullshit excuse about no camp.

    i'll tell you why because the 16 god damn teams making the playoffs, their coaches had no camp either. so, don't feed me this bullshit like it's some disadvantage they have over the other 29 teams and that's why they're shit.

    please, just stop... JUST FUCKING STOP!!!
    But most of those coaches have been there and done that. Playoffs is nothing new for them, Dwane casey is in his first season with a roster full of unproven youngsters, give DC a summer and you'll be happy with the outcome next season. I also love the idea of getting a tough Vet who can actually play and contribute(no offense to Big Cat). Elton Brand sounds good

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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    one thing cut it out with this fuckin bullshit excuse about no camp.

    i'll tell you why because the 16 god damn teams making the playoffs, their coaches had no camp either. so, don't feed me this bullshit like it's some disadvantage they have over the other 29 teams and that's why they're shit.

    please, just stop... JUST FUCKING STOP!!!
    Huh? How many of the 16 teams making the playoffs have a new coach (incl some assts.), are in a stated rebuild mode and had their first round draft choice not available for the year?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star KazanTheMan's Avatar
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    Can the haters just relax until the offseason, and a few games into next season? No coach would have been able to take this current roster and made them a playoff team in one season... Casey has been doing a great job so far and you can only believe that he will do even better next year with more talented players. SO just please calm down with all these negative mentalities until he and BC can prove themselves this offseason and next season.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Huh? How many of the 16 teams making the playoffs have a new coach (incl some assts.), are in a stated rebuild mode and had their first round draft choice not available for the year?
    meant to quote the other guy. but, w/e.

    no if ands, or buts.

    i'd continue to argue. but, i'll just focus on the raps.

    you guys honestly think we'd be any better off if we had camp and all that?

    How many practices, lectures, and games have happened now?

    we're still losing more games than winning, we still suck, guys still make bonehead moves. If guys don't get the system by now, something's wrong.

    we did have a brief camp and pre-season, and you learn on the job, you have practices...

    I'd understand if you were using this excuse 10 games in, mid-december.

    but, there are 8 games left, it's mid-april. that excuse is pure bullshit.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    one thing cut it out with this fuckin bullshit excuse about no camp.

    i'll tell you why because the 16 god damn teams making the playoffs, their coaches had no camp either. so, don't feed me this bullshit like it's some disadvantage they have over the other 29 teams and that's why they're shit.

    please, just stop... JUST FUCKING STOP!!!
    http://tsn.ca/nba/standings/?show=conference
    http://espn.go.com/nba/bracket

    aside from new orleans getting rid of paul and portland impoding all the same teams from last year are in the playoffs. take the lakers fro example and i think they are a better team than their current record shows but of the play off teams they are the only ones who made any system changes and it is reflected in their current standings.

    for teams who changed their system no training camp definitely affects the product on the court. that is 1 month of learning. if you go to math class for a year, you know a little math and might pass the exam but you will be no where near as good as the kids who cram for a month before the test.

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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    one thing cut it out with this fuckin bullshit excuse about no camp.

    i'll tell you why because the 16 god damn teams making the playoffs, their coaches had no camp either. so, don't feed me this bullshit like it's some disadvantage they have over the other 29 teams and that's why they're shit.

    please, just stop... JUST FUCKING STOP!!!
    This post is beyond retarded.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Colangelo drafts the best player available and as stated many times by he himself, Bargnani was the best player available in his opinion.





    Lack of results doesn't equate to lack of effort or good intentions. Colangelo himself said many times that he was building around Bosh. He's not saying that about Bargnani.



    Prove it.

    Because he's the most talented player on the team and it's blatantly obvious his talents are better suited to the 4.

    I agree but that's not how life works. Colangelo is a guy trying to secure his job long term. He has to deal with politics and perceptions for example.
    Good points definitely.

    1) If BC drafts the bpa and he thought Andrea was a better PF prospect than Aldridge, he needs to fire his scouting staff and mybe he should also take step back from talent evaluation. I am beginning to think the same about his selection of Demar

    2) I agree that lack of results doesn't signify lack of intentions but I have also listened to Colangelo long enough to know what he says should be taken with a grain of salt at times as he is a salesman. Just because he has said something or hasn't said something, doesn't make it so.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    1) If BC drafts the bpa and he thought Andrea was a better PF prospect than Aldridge, he needs to fire his scouting staff and mybe he should also take step back from talent evaluation. I am beginning to think the same about his selection of Demar
    Yeah, easy to say in hindsight but the time people were split on the top pick. There was no consensus number one draft choice.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    2) I agree that lack of results doesn't signify lack of intentions but I have also listened to Colangelo long enough to know what he says should be taken with a grain of salt at times as he is a salesman. Just because he has said something or hasn't said something, doesn't make it so.
    No, you shouldn't take him at face value. You should review it for yourself. I've done that and I think he's telling the truth.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Good points definitely.

    1) If BC drafts the bpa and he thought Andrea was a better PF prospect than Aldridge, he needs to fire his scouting staff and mybe he should also take step back from talent evaluation. I am beginning to think the same about his selection of Demar

    2) I agree that lack of results doesn't signify lack of intentions but I have also listened to Colangelo long enough to know what he says should be taken with a grain of salt at times as he is a salesman. Just because he has said something or hasn't said something, doesn't make it so.
    i remember that being a very weak draft class when we got the number 1. i also remember the very first day after winning colangelo was spouting about bargs. i felt at the time it was because he was a european and not well known. lots of people were telling him to trade down for the 3 to 5 range and he was adamant that bargs wouldn't be available at those numbers. that was his guy for a long time. i think if we hadn't of won the lottery he wouldn't have played up bargs so much to gain interest and exposure for a player he knew he wanted.

    much like last year with jv when, not sure about you but i shit myself when knight was on the board. right when they said toronto on the clock i knew it was knight the whole way. i was reading up more on him and was preparing to welcome him to t.o. then i heard jvs name called and a wtf jumped out. got depressed. did some research and started to like the pick. now almost a year later i love the pick.

    now we know the best player of that class went number 21. aldridge was a bosh clone and only two players have made an all star game to date and this was aldridges first time.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NBA_Draft

    for your second point i mostly agree but i admire colangelos attitude and willingness to jump in front of the bullet. whenever something goes wrong he is the man at the podium telling every reporter to blame him and the mistake is on his shoulders. but it is part of his job to get people in seats and sometimes exaggerating works well for that.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Agree with Apollo, also i wouldn't be shocked if they traded Bargs before/during the draft.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Agree with Apollo, also i wouldn't be shocked if they traded Bargs before/during the draft.
    Although I hope it happens, I actually would be VERY surprised to see Bargs traded. In fact, I'd be utterly flabbergasted.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    My thought now is the same as my thought last year: they should have fired this management team when they had the chance. As I've repeatedly said, this management team has been trying to have it both ways: it wants to be competitive and be building for the future at the same time and it wants to do it on the cheap. Now, whether that is feasible or not others can judge but the results in Toronto have been terrible and an approach that, in theory, should be balanced has instead looked more half-assed. Too often Colangelo has operated with a Red Queen Theory mindset - running as fast as possible to stay in the same place.

    I know others here disagree but I see far too many similarities to 2006 to be comfortable with the "plan". I hear an organization talking about "building" and no longer "rebuilding" when the reality is that there wasn't a proper demolition in the first place. I see far too much emphasis on a 6th man as a focal point of the roster. I worry that too much is focused on what is in management's best interest and not necessarily what is in the long-term best interests of the organization. And when I hear they want to "hit the ground running" next season I have to wonder whether maybe they shouldn't learn to crawl first.

    Fans are right to be concerned about the direction of this organization. Of course, that's been the case for 10 years now, so not much has really changed.

  18. #18
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Colangelo has made some gigantic trades in his younger days. He wants to build a contender but he first needs to see to it that the team takes a step forward next year so that he secures an extension. This makes me feel that Bargnani gets one more season for sure unless the Raptors win the top pick... Who knows then. That's a winning situation no matter what.

    And I'm not saying he sacrifices the future for now but I don't think he's not going to be willing to field another team miserable team. Casey wants some vets. Colangelo says he might target a tough veteran big man. There is a potential influx of two top five lotto picks. This team is moving forward next year.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I don't think that Colangelo is scheming in the background trying to come up with new ways of fooling the paying public. I honestly believe he's doing everything he knows how to "rebuild" the Raptors.

    But I also agree with the article in that not all players are being held accountable to the same degree. Yes, DeRozan and Bargnani have been benched at times, but they seem to have a much longer leash compared to other players.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 08:46 AM. Reason: type-o
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Starter hotfuzz's Avatar
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    That is exactly my problem right now. All this talk about accountability at the start of the season has amounted to nothing. Pound the rock, culture change, accountability all sound like such nice buzz words but I am not sure if they're being implemented.
    "Duh! Winning"
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