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Thread: Are we really Rebuilding?

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    Raptors Republic Starter hotfuzz's Avatar
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    Default Are we really Rebuilding?

    This post from another Raptors fan site pretty much sums up my concerns

    http://www.raptorshq.com/2012/4/6/29...he-raps-future

    He pretty much says that this whole new "rebuilding' spin by Calengelo is just another way of building around Bargnani. We tried it once with CB4, and failed miserably, I have no idea why we are trying it again with an inferior player.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I don't agree that they're building around Bargnani. They're about to bring in JV and another high lotto pick. That's to add to another top ten lotto pick in Demar DeRozan and a final lotto pick in Ed Davis. When they built around Bosh they went out and either signed or traded for a bunch of guys to complement him. They're not doing that with Andrea. They're asking him to change to fit team. The concept is the opposite of what they did with Bosh.

    One more thought. They really need an editor over at the site.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Agree with Apollo, also i wouldn't be shocked if they traded Bargs before/during the draft.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Agree with Apollo, also i wouldn't be shocked if they traded Bargs before/during the draft.
    Although I hope it happens, I actually would be VERY surprised to see Bargs traded. In fact, I'd be utterly flabbergasted.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    My thought now is the same as my thought last year: they should have fired this management team when they had the chance. As I've repeatedly said, this management team has been trying to have it both ways: it wants to be competitive and be building for the future at the same time and it wants to do it on the cheap. Now, whether that is feasible or not others can judge but the results in Toronto have been terrible and an approach that, in theory, should be balanced has instead looked more half-assed. Too often Colangelo has operated with a Red Queen Theory mindset - running as fast as possible to stay in the same place.

    I know others here disagree but I see far too many similarities to 2006 to be comfortable with the "plan". I hear an organization talking about "building" and no longer "rebuilding" when the reality is that there wasn't a proper demolition in the first place. I see far too much emphasis on a 6th man as a focal point of the roster. I worry that too much is focused on what is in management's best interest and not necessarily what is in the long-term best interests of the organization. And when I hear they want to "hit the ground running" next season I have to wonder whether maybe they shouldn't learn to crawl first.

    Fans are right to be concerned about the direction of this organization. Of course, that's been the case for 10 years now, so not much has really changed.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Colangelo has made some gigantic trades in his younger days. He wants to build a contender but he first needs to see to it that the team takes a step forward next year so that he secures an extension. This makes me feel that Bargnani gets one more season for sure unless the Raptors win the top pick... Who knows then. That's a winning situation no matter what.

    And I'm not saying he sacrifices the future for now but I don't think he's not going to be willing to field another team miserable team. Casey wants some vets. Colangelo says he might target a tough veteran big man. There is a potential influx of two top five lotto picks. This team is moving forward next year.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I don't think that Colangelo is scheming in the background trying to come up with new ways of fooling the paying public. I honestly believe he's doing everything he knows how to "rebuild" the Raptors.

    But I also agree with the article in that not all players are being held accountable to the same degree. Yes, DeRozan and Bargnani have been benched at times, but they seem to have a much longer leash compared to other players.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Apr 11th, 2012 at 08:46 AM. Reason: type-o
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Starter hotfuzz's Avatar
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    That is exactly my problem right now. All this talk about accountability at the start of the season has amounted to nothing. Pound the rock, culture change, accountability all sound like such nice buzz words but I am not sure if they're being implemented.
    "Duh! Winning"
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote hotfuzz wrote: View Post
    That is exactly my problem right now. All this talk about accountability at the start of the season has amounted to nothing. Pound the rock, culture change, accountability all sound like such nice buzz words but I am not sure if they're being implemented.
    Casey is a new coach and didn't even get a real camp to teach his guys a new system. Despite that he's improved their Points Against from 26th in 2010-11 to 14th in 2011-12. He's doing something right. I don't think it's fair to judge him on this season. He's had to get to know the players during the season as opposed to in the summer and during camp. Good coaches are good psychologists. He hasn't had enough time to really give effective treatment to his players so to speak. Until he learns who they all are as individuals it probably isn't wise to start letting it hit the fan. Different personalities respond to coaching in different ways. I don't think a coaching cure all exists, just like there isn't a magic pill that cures poor eye sight and a sprained ankle. I think different tactics need to be deployed based on the personality. For this fact alone you'll typically not see effective coaches treat everyone the same. That's my take on it anyway.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote hotfuzz wrote: View Post
    That is exactly my problem right now. All this talk about accountability at the start of the season has amounted to nothing. Pound the rock, culture change, accountability all sound like such nice buzz words but I am not sure if they're being implemented.
    I disagree.

    Has Bargnani not been benched at times? Has he not been called out at times? Has he not actually played decent defense?

    Has James Johnson not been shown who is boss?

    Has DeMar not been called out?

    Has Ed Davis not been called out?

    Has Amir not seen him minutes cut for dogging it?

    Has Gray not been yanked at times for ineffective play?

    Did the Raptors not go to 14th in Opp PPG and 17th in defensive rating this season compared to 26th and 30th last year with pretty much the same roster?


    Honestly I can't see how anyone could not see the changes in the Raptors on and off the court this year. There is a very fine line with professional athletes regarding how hard they can be pushed before they tune out. The fact the Raptors have 10 games left and are still competing in games and refusing to get blown out (minus a 24-0 run against OKC) shows incredible improvement from recent years past.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't agree that they're building around Bargnani. They're about to bring in JV and another high lotto pick. That's to add to another top ten lotto pick in Demar DeRozan and a final lotto pick in Ed Davis. When they built around Bosh they went out and either signed or traded for a bunch of guys to complement him. They're not doing that with Andrea. They're asking him to change to fit team. The concept is the opposite of what they did with Bosh.

    One more thought. They really need an editor over at the site.
    "Bang on!"

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I disagree.

    Has Bargnani not been benched at times? Has he not been called out at times? Has he not actually played decent defense?

    Has James Johnson not been shown who is boss?

    Has DeMar not been called out?

    Has Ed Davis not been called out?

    Has Amir not seen him minutes cut for dogging it?

    Has Gray not been yanked at times for ineffective play?

    Did the Raptors not go to 14th in Opp PPG and 17th in defensive rating this season compared to 26th and 30th last year with pretty much the same roster?


    Honestly I can't see how anyone could not see the changes in the Raptors on and off the court this year. There is a very fine line with professional athletes regarding how hard they can be pushed before they tune out. The fact the Raptors have 10 games left and are still competing in games and refusing to get blown out (minus a 24-0 run against OKC) shows incredible improvement from recent years past.
    Right on and next season you'll no doubt see Casey hit full stride. What he's done this season given his unfavorable situation needs to be appreciated more. At first I was skeptical about him over the summer when they were talking in the media about hiring him but he's done everything to win me over.

    Also when guys like Stan Van Gundy come out and make a point to give praise you know he's doing something right.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote hotfuzz wrote: View Post
    That is exactly my problem right now. All this talk about accountability at the start of the season has amounted to nothing. Pound the rock, culture change, accountability all sound like such nice buzz words but I am not sure if they're being implemented.
    As a boss (which Casey is), it's very difficult to change the culture before changing the personnel. Sometimes it's just the head that's rotten but more often than not the infection is everywhere. In this organization, it wasn't Jay Triano/Sam Mitchell that was the sole problem and replacing them only gets you so far. The easiest way to change an organization's culture is for the new boss to get rid of the losers, deadwood and hangers-on and replace them with people who already have the appropriate approach and attitude. My personal experience with this sort of thing is that trying to change the culture without replacing the personnel is doomed to failure and, in Raptorland, far too many people who are part of the problem remain. Starting with the guy in the high collar and all the way down to the guy wearing #7.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    As a boss (which Casey is), it's very difficult to change the culture before changing the personnel. Sometimes it's just the head that's rotten but more often than not the infection is everywhere. In this organization, it wasn't Jay Triano/Sam Mitchell that was the sole problem and replacing them only gets you so far. The easiest way to change an organization's culture is for the new boss to get rid of the losers, deadwood and hangers-on and replace them with people who already have the appropriate approach and attitude. My personal experience with this sort of thing is that trying to change the culture without replacing the personnel is doomed to failure and, in Raptorland, far too many people who are part of the problem remain. Starting with the guy in the high collar and all the way down to the guy wearing #7.
    Very difficult - yes.

    Impossible - no.

    Has he made a great start - absolutely.

    Also Casey is a lead assistant on a championship winning team. McKechnie was involved with many championship teams in LA. Stefanski was the GM with the Nets when they went to the Finals twice. Colangelo made PHX a top team for many years. Many in the front office have been reassigned (JT and MG in particular).

    With guaranteed contracts, personnel can hardly be changed at the drop of a hat. This rebuild is not even 2 years old. A proper rebuild does not happen over night. Even if one uses the Boston example they spent years acquiring assets before acquiring KG and Ray Allen.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Colangelo and Casey have both mentioned adding a tough veteran in free agency. It sounds like they are looking to give Casey "his guy". A player who's going to maybe hold guys accountable in practice and during game time? The last time the Raptors had a couple of those(Oak and JYD) they almost went to the conference finals. Such a young team, which is about to get even younger, certainly needs some vet leadership which shares Casey's philosophies.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I don't agree that they're building around Bargnani. They're about to bring in JV and another high lotto pick. That's to add to another top ten lotto pick in Demar DeRozan and a final lotto pick in Ed Davis. When they built around Bosh they went out and either signed or traded for a bunch of guys to complement him. They're not doing that with Andrea. They're asking him to change to fit team. The concept is the opposite of what they did with Bosh.

    One more thought. They really need an editor over at the site.
    Who did BC bring in to build around Bosh? TJ Ford? Jermaine O'Neal?

    Why would he draft Bargnani if he conceeds he plays the same position as Bosh now? Wouldn't he of taken the opportunity with the first pick in the draft to get a talented complimentary piece for Bosh if you were building around him? What about the swing Bosh asked for? Colangelo took DeRozan as the no handle, learning to play 2 guard that couldn't help the team significantly at the time.

    I can't point to the bit pieces Colangelo acquired as an effort in building around a player, other than Turkoglu and even then it wasn't a compliment to Bosh's game and rather money burning a hole in his pocket in mho.

    Also for Andrea, maybe he's not trying to specifically build around him, but he's trying to do the same thing he did with Bosh. Acquiring players but still having your centre piece of the team in place. Why else would he declare him starter at the 4 before the season started? The problem in his thinking is that Andrea is only a piece. Him nor Derozan should have any special treatment over any other player on this team.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Colangelo and Casey have both mentioned adding a tough veteran in free agency. It sounds like they are looking to give Casey "his guy". A player who's going to maybe hold guys accountable in practice and during game time? The last time the Raptors had a couple of those(Oak and JYD) they almost went to the conference finals. Such a young team, which is about to get even younger, certainly needs some vet leadership which shares Casey's philosophies.
    Elton Brand?

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Why would he draft Bargnani if he conceeds he plays the same position as Bosh now? Wouldn't he of taken the opportunity with the first pick in the draft to get a talented complimentary piece for Bosh if you were building around him?
    Colangelo drafts the best player available and as stated many times by he himself, Bargnani was the best player available in his opinion.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Who did BC bring in to build around Bosh? TJ Ford? Jermaine O'Neal?
    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    What about the swing Bosh asked for?
    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    I can't point to the bit pieces Colangelo acquired as an effort in building around a player, other than Turkoglu and even then it wasn't a compliment to Bosh's game and rather money burning a hole in his pocket in mho.
    Lack of results doesn't equate to lack of effort or good intentions. Colangelo himself said many times that he was building around Bosh. He's not saying that about Bargnani.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Also for Andrea, maybe he's not trying to specifically build around him, but he's trying to do the same thing he did with Bosh.
    Prove it.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Why else would he declare him starter at the 4 before the season started?
    Because he's the most talented player on the team and it's blatantly obvious his talents are better suited to the 4.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    The problem in his thinking is that Andrea is only a piece. Him nor Derozan should have any special treatment over any other player on this team.
    I agree but that's not how life works. Colangelo is a guy trying to secure his job long term. He has to deal with politics and perceptions for example.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Default Are we rebuilding?

    one thing cut it out with this fuckin bullshit excuse about no camp.

    i'll tell you why because the 16 god damn teams making the playoffs, their coaches had no camp either. so, don't feed me this bullshit like it's some disadvantage they have over the other 29 teams and that's why they're shit.

    please, just stop... JUST FUCKING STOP!!!

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Point out where I say it's a disadvantage other teams didn't experience as well. Go ahead quote the exact reference please. After you're done that point out the teams likely to make the playoffs who have new coaches and new systems implemented this season. The Lakers come to mind but a labotimized monkey could coach that team to the playoffs. It's star studded. You missed my point completely and mindlessly cursed along the way. Does dropping the f bomb strengthen your position?

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