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Thread: Are we really Rebuilding?

  1. #41
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    1) If BC drafts the bpa and he thought Andrea was a better PF prospect than Aldridge, he needs to fire his scouting staff and mybe he should also take step back from talent evaluation. I am beginning to think the same about his selection of Demar
    Yeah, easy to say in hindsight but the time people were split on the top pick. There was no consensus number one draft choice.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    2) I agree that lack of results doesn't signify lack of intentions but I have also listened to Colangelo long enough to know what he says should be taken with a grain of salt at times as he is a salesman. Just because he has said something or hasn't said something, doesn't make it so.
    No, you shouldn't take him at face value. You should review it for yourself. I've done that and I think he's telling the truth.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Good points definitely.

    1) If BC drafts the bpa and he thought Andrea was a better PF prospect than Aldridge, he needs to fire his scouting staff and mybe he should also take step back from talent evaluation. I am beginning to think the same about his selection of Demar

    2) I agree that lack of results doesn't signify lack of intentions but I have also listened to Colangelo long enough to know what he says should be taken with a grain of salt at times as he is a salesman. Just because he has said something or hasn't said something, doesn't make it so.
    i remember that being a very weak draft class when we got the number 1. i also remember the very first day after winning colangelo was spouting about bargs. i felt at the time it was because he was a european and not well known. lots of people were telling him to trade down for the 3 to 5 range and he was adamant that bargs wouldn't be available at those numbers. that was his guy for a long time. i think if we hadn't of won the lottery he wouldn't have played up bargs so much to gain interest and exposure for a player he knew he wanted.

    much like last year with jv when, not sure about you but i shit myself when knight was on the board. right when they said toronto on the clock i knew it was knight the whole way. i was reading up more on him and was preparing to welcome him to t.o. then i heard jvs name called and a wtf jumped out. got depressed. did some research and started to like the pick. now almost a year later i love the pick.

    now we know the best player of that class went number 21. aldridge was a bosh clone and only two players have made an all star game to date and this was aldridges first time.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NBA_Draft

    for your second point i mostly agree but i admire colangelos attitude and willingness to jump in front of the bullet. whenever something goes wrong he is the man at the podium telling every reporter to blame him and the mistake is on his shoulders. but it is part of his job to get people in seats and sometimes exaggerating works well for that.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote nubreed000 wrote: View Post
    This post is beyond retarded.
    interesting...

    care to elaborate?

  4. #44
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    one thing cut it out with this fuckin bullshit excuse about no camp.

    i'll tell you why because the 16 god damn teams making the playoffs, their coaches had no camp either. so, don't feed me this bullshit like it's some disadvantage they have over the other 29 teams and that's why they're shit.

    please, just stop... JUST FUCKING STOP!!!
    NO!

    They had no camp...the reason this bring about a unique problem for them is....

    1.) Of the 16 teams making the playoffs only 2 have a new coach and they are the Lakers
    who have been playing much worse this year and are only in playoffs because they have two HOF players
    two gritty defenders and Bynum clogging up the middle. NYK has a lot of great pieces as well...but even them
    with a mid season switch are struggling to be even a 500 team with THREE ALL STARS and some excellent role players

    2.) Toronto had a dramatic shift from what they were doing the previous year. A lot of other teams had the benefit of consistency and even THEY struggled and generally made the first 20 games of the season pretty unwatchable.

    3.) They are one of the youngest teams in the league. A summer league, development time with coaches and a FULL training camp are crucial to their development. Poor Ed Davis has yet to work with coaches in the off season or have a training camp along with two completely different coaches in two years.

    So when we say we didn't have a training camp and use that as some kind of an excuse for this year...that's because it IS an excuse, and we NEEDED it a lot more than at least 26 of the other 29 teams.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    Colangelo 'inherited' Bosh as a franchise cornerstone ... just like he inherited Sam Mitchell as the coach.

    That doesn't mean either of them fit his style or vision.

    As for rebuilding, I think it's safe to say you can be doing this while also looking to build around Bargs ... don't need to throw out everything, like he and Jose just because they want to change the team ... The team could be drastically different next season, while still featuring Bargnani, AND Jose, for that matter.

    Going into next season, there's no doubt we'll be flush with lottery talent - then it will just be a matter of putting the right pieces together. Upgrading at SG and SF ... along with the guaranteed solid prospect at C ... we'll be money.
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Colangelo and Casey have both mentioned adding a tough veteran in free agency. It sounds like they are looking to give Casey "his guy". A player who's going to maybe hold guys accountable in practice and during game time? The last time the Raptors had a couple of those(Oak and JYD) they almost went to the conference finals. Such a young team, which is about to get even younger, certainly needs some vet leadership which shares Casey's philosophies.
    Curious about which players you think might fit this description in terms of personality. Matt already suggested Elton Brand.

    Shane Battier, Udonis Haslem, and Tony Allen also come to mind.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #47
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Reggie Evans and Kenyon Martin are two guys who fit the bill.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Reggie Evans and Kenyon Martin are two guys who fit the bill.
    Chris Andersen from Denver is another guy I wouldn't mind having.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Chris Andersen from Denver is another guy I wouldn't mind having.
    He's a little too "spotlight-seeking" (for lack of a better term) for my liking. But I appreciate his hustle on the court.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  10. #50
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    NO!

    They had no camp...the reason this bring about a unique problem for them is....

    1.) Of the 16 teams making the playoffs only 2 have a new coach and they are the Lakers
    who have been playing much worse this year and are only in playoffs because they have two HOF players
    two gritty defenders and Bynum clogging up the middle. NYK has a lot of great pieces as well...but even them
    with a mid season switch are struggling to be even a 500 team with THREE ALL STARS and some excellent role players

    2.) Toronto had a dramatic shift from what they were doing the previous year. A lot of other teams had the benefit of consistency and even THEY struggled and generally made the first 20 games of the season pretty unwatchable.

    3.) They are one of the youngest teams in the league. A summer league, development time with coaches and a FULL training camp are crucial to their development. Poor Ed Davis has yet to work with coaches in the off season or have a training camp along with two completely different coaches in two years.

    So when we say we didn't have a training camp and use that as some kind of an excuse for this year...that's because it IS an excuse, and we NEEDED it a lot more than at least 26 of the other 29 teams.
    so, what you're trying to tell me is that all the games, practices, and lectures since the beggining of the season teach absolutely jack shit because there was no training camp?

  11. #51
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Yeah, easy to say in hindsight but the time people were split on the top pick. There was no consensus number one draft choice.



    No, you shouldn't take him at face value. You should review it for yourself. I've done that and I think he's telling the truth.
    Whether hindsight or not I was familiar with Aldridge at Texas and was unfamiliar with Andrea.

    When he learned more about Andrea and realized he was playing the 3 in Euroleague I was skeptical. The only thing that made me pause to consider it was they said he was going to develop into a 5, which made me open to the concept of drafting him.

    Of course, 6 years later we are told that is not the case and that he is a natural 4. In hindsight, if I was told the truth I would have been adamantly opposed to Colangelo drafting a project 4 over an established (in college mind you) 4 in Aldridge.

    There wasn't a concensus number #1 pick so his assessment of Andrea being the best player available at #1 was an oversight that cost the franchise a chance at getting a real cornerstone.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Reggie Evans and Kenyon Martin are two guys who fit the bill.
    Isn't Kenyon Martin a major nutcase?

  13. #53
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    i remember that being a very weak draft class when we got the number 1. i also remember the very first day after winning colangelo was spouting about bargs. i felt at the time it was because he was a european and not well known. lots of people were telling him to trade down for the 3 to 5 range and he was adamant that bargs wouldn't be available at those numbers. that was his guy for a long time. i think if we hadn't of won the lottery he wouldn't have played up bargs so much to gain interest and exposure for a player he knew he wanted.

    much like last year with jv when, not sure about you but i shit myself when knight was on the board. right when they said toronto on the clock i knew it was knight the whole way. i was reading up more on him and was preparing to welcome him to t.o. then i heard jvs name called and a wtf jumped out. got depressed. did some research and started to like the pick. now almost a year later i love the pick.

    now we know the best player of that class went number 21. aldridge was a bosh clone and only two players have made an all star game to date and this was aldridges first time.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_NBA_Draft

    for your second point i mostly agree but i admire colangelos attitude and willingness to jump in front of the bullet. whenever something goes wrong he is the man at the podium telling every reporter to blame him and the mistake is on his shoulders. but it is part of his job to get people in seats and sometimes exaggerating works well for that.
    Don't know if I agree with your last assessment in Colangelo willing to jump up in front of the bullet as we've seen him deflect criticism on various occasions, however it is his job to get people in the seats or remain there. i think the best way to do this is winning. Sports is a what have you done for me lately business and lately he hasn't done much. I know the whole talk about 'rebuilding' but I think in his mind he has already rebuilt and is now about to start ascending again (JV, another high draft pick in this draft, "cap flexibility" in my best Colangelo sales voice) which is a grave error imho and is based on him trying to keep his job.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Don't know if I agree with your last assessment in Colangelo willing to jump up in front of the bullet as we've seen him deflect criticism on various occasions, however it is his job to get people in the seats or remain there. i think the best way to do this is winning. Sports is a what have you done for me lately business and lately he hasn't done much. I know the whole talk about 'rebuilding' but I think in his mind he has already rebuilt and is now about to start ascending again (JV, another high draft pick in this draft, "cap flexibility" in my best Colangelo sales voice) which is a grave error imho and is based on him trying to keep his job.
    I agree with your views overall.

    One thing I would add is turning around an NBA franchise is not like slamming breaks in your (insert super sports car here). It is much more like slowing down a freight train with a maximum load at top speed..... unless you are the Spurs and David Robinson sits for a year and then you get Tim Duncan.

    Bottom line: radical changes are not going to be seen over night. Even if the Raptors hit the ground running next year and compete or make the playoffs, that will still have been 2 years and a very fast turnaround by NBA standards.

  15. #55
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Isn't Kenyon Martin a major nutcase?
    considering most guys in the nba grew up like the movie boyz n the hood. I'd be shocked if they weren't all a little bit fucked up.

    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  16. #56
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    so, what you're trying to tell me is that all the games, practices, and lectures since the beggining of the season teach absolutely jack shit because there was no training camp?
    I'm trying to tell you...there was no summer league to give young guys some run. There was no access to trainers or coaches in order to really develop skills over the summer.

    Par Example: Ed Davis would have had his broken shot fixed last summer instead of the now planned this summer.
    Nobody got to work with Alex Mcecknie(sp?)

    There was no full training camp in order to fully implement all the changes Casey wanted. He still does not have them doing the zone his way with all the nuances.

    Yes every team league started with the same handicap...EXCEPT they didn't.

    What I'm trying to tell you is of all the other 29 teams in the league...we needed the summer and camp more than any of them.

    Chicago - Almost all the same players: exact same coach: vets
    Miami - Almost all the same players: exact same coach: TWO HOFs 1 ALL STAR and several vets

    You can say the exact same thing about almost every play off team except the Knicks

    Toronto - 7 new players (to date) - New Coach - Young Team - No Camp - No Summer League - No Access To Training Staff. If you can't see that the lockout effected teams like Detroit - Toronto - Sacremento more than it would the Lakers - OKC - Chicago and Miami...there really is nothing more to argue about and it would be pointless to do so.

    Conclusion: The lockout hurt the Raptors more than most of the other teams in the league with very few exceptions.

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Reggie Evans and Kenyon Martin are two guys who fit the bill.
    No and No. Kenyon martin will another Marion.

    Chris Anderson? hell no.

    Wouldn't mind Tony Allen, Haslem, Battier, Camby, Anthony parker, Nash, Kidd

  18. #58
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Rebuilding the right way seems to take about 4 years unless you get lucky. Need time to collect the best assets you can. Once you are loaded up with cap space trade assets TPEs picks etc...than you flip it all into a playoff team. Having said that. With one key free agent signing and the arrival of Big V I see us in the 8th seed next season

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I'm trying to tell you...there was no summer league to give young guys some run. There was no access to trainers or coaches in order to really develop skills over the summer.

    Par Example: Ed Davis would have had his broken shot fixed last summer instead of the now planned this summer.
    Nobody got to work with Alex Mcecknie(sp?)

    There was no full training camp in order to fully implement all the changes Casey wanted. He still does not have them doing the zone his way with all the nuances.

    Yes every team league started with the same handicap...EXCEPT they didn't.

    What I'm trying to tell you is of all the other 29 teams in the league...we needed the summer and camp more than any of them.

    Chicago - Almost all the same players: exact same coach: vets
    Miami - Almost all the same players: exact same coach: TWO HOFs 1 ALL STAR and several vets

    You can say the exact same thing about almost every play off team except the Knicks

    Toronto - 7 new players (to date) - New Coach - Young Team - No Camp - No Summer League - No Access To Training Staff. If you can't see that the lockout effected teams like Detroit - Toronto - Sacremento more than it would the Lakers - OKC - Chicago and Miami...there really is nothing more to argue about and it would be pointless to do so.

    Conclusion: The lockout hurt the Raptors more than most of the other teams in the league with very few exceptions.
    so, what you're saying is we're underachieving when clearly we've done a bit better than most people's beggining of the season expectations.

    you're saying that out of all the teams in the lottery, we're the most talented, and the worst underachiever.

    i think alot of people would disagree with you.

  20. #60
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Whether hindsight or not I was familiar with Aldridge at Texas and was unfamiliar with Andrea.
    Attempting to justify your point by explaining your own ignorance at the time is a new tactic I'm unfamiliar with. You win I guess? Colangelo had been scouting Bargnani for a couple years. I assure you Colangelo was very familiar with Bargnani.

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