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Thread: Are we really Rebuilding?

  1. #61
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    so, what you're saying is we're underachieving when clearly we've done a bit better than most people's beggining of the season expectations.

    you're saying that out of all the teams in the lottery, we're the most talented, and the worst underachiever.

    i think alot of people would disagree with you.

    What I'm saying is The Raptors were likely the most hurt of all teams in the NBA by the lockout/shortened camp/limited practice time PERIOD I can't think of a team that has suffered worse for it (that does not mean has a worse record)

  2. #62
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    What I'm saying is The Raptors were likely the most hurt of all teams in the NBA by the lockout/shortened camp/limited practice time PERIOD I can't think of a team that has suffered worse for it (that does not mean has a worse record)
    I don't believe that. I don't believe you truly think that

  3. #63
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    I don't believe that. I don't believe you truly think that
    I guess we're done here then

  4. #64
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    No and No. Kenyon martin will another Marion.
    What do you mean by that?

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    What I'm saying is The Raptors were likely the most hurt of all teams in the NBA by the lockout/shortened camp/limited practice time PERIOD I can't think of a team that has suffered worse for it (that does not mean has a worse record)
    They were certainly hurt bad but this lockout shortened season, and more importantly PRE-season preparation ... any teams that entered this year with a new coach are on the top of the list, because the coach would have never truly had a chance to run good practices and training camp with his guys. That would also include Scott in CLE and Frank in DET.
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

  6. #66
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I kind of agree with LBF regarding the lockout excuse.

    Even if we had a full training camp, any team with a new coach would be at a disadvantage compared to established coaches (who already have familiarity with their teams). The lockout might exaggerate that disadvantage a bit, but I don't like the idea of using it as an excuse either.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #67
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Attempting to justify your point by explaining your own ignorance at the time is a new tactic I'm unfamiliar with. You win I guess? Colangelo had been scouting Bargnani for a couple years. I assure you Colangelo was very familiar with Bargnani.
    Lol, I was commenting in regards to my 'hindsight'.

    Quite often if we look at the facts now we argue it as "it's easy to say in hindsight".

    Maybe that is true but if you believed it at the time can it still be considered hindsight?

    My point is that Colangelo's foresight hurt this franchise because as we know now he considers Andrea to be a 4. Could the draftin of Andrea still be considered "building around Bosh" when as a GM you drafted an inferior player at the same position as your best player? Can you consider it the best option to draft him when most scouts would have probably indicated that Aldride was a better 4 prospect than Andrea?

    Colangelo had been scouting Andrea for a couple of years and was familiar with him I agree. That doesn't mean he didn't make a mistake in drafting him if he was indeed building around Bosh like he has said.

  8. #68
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    My point is that Colangelo's foresight hurt this franchise because as we know now he considers Andrea to be a 4. Could the draftin of Andrea still be considered "building around Bosh"
    Yes it should be considering the fact that Colangelo built around Bosh because he said it many, many times. Scouting is about finding out who the player is now and speculating about what he can be later. Obviously they missed the mark on who they felt Bargnani would become. Again, you can't question the motives of Colangelo in 2006 based on what we know now. That doesn't make any sense.

  9. #69
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I guess we're done here then
    pretty much.

    you win... even though you're crazy.
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  10. #70
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    What do you mean by that?

    past his expiry date and ineffective in our system.

  11. #71
    Raptors Republic Starter minks77's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    one thing cut it out with this fuckin bullshit excuse about no camp.

    i'll tell you why because the 16 god damn teams making the playoffs, their coaches had no camp either. so, don't feed me this bullshit like it's some disadvantage they have over the other 29 teams and that's why they're shit.

    please, just stop... JUST FUCKING STOP!!!
    FWIW, Dallas, the most veteran team out there, last years Champions, were definitely hurt by the lack of a camp. Dirk has said more than once how deeply it affected his ability to prepare/get in shape for the season. But it wasn't only Dirk getting into shape but having to figure out how to integrate one head case while losing 2 key players and a key coach. Their team was a mess early on with little to no chemistry and that is a direct result of no camp. Fortunately they are vets and very talented overall and the system wasn't radically changed (beyond player turn over) so they were able to tread water until the gelled.

    The Raps, on the other hand, 180'ed the system by replacing Jay with DC and definitely have been changing the "culture" in the locker room. On top of that they added 4 or 5 new players at the beginning of the year (2 new starters on opening night) moved AB to the 4 and then tell me that this young, talent deprived squad wasn't adversely effected by a lack of a camp.

    The bottom line is they just aren't talented or experienced enough regardless of a TC but that does not negate the fact that camp (and summer league to a lesser degree) is extremely important.

  12. #72
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote minks77 wrote: View Post
    FWIW, Dallas, the most veteran team out there, last years Champions, were definitely hurt by the lack of a camp. Dirk has said more than once how deeply it affected his ability to prepare/get in shape for the season. But it wasn't only Dirk getting into shape but having to figure out how to integrate one head case while losing 2 key players and a key coach. Their team was a mess early on with little to no chemistry and that is a direct result of no camp. Fortunately they are vets and very talented overall and the system wasn't radically changed (beyond player turn over) so they were able to tread water until the gelled.

    The Raps, on the other hand, 180'ed the system by replacing Jay with DC and definitely have been changing the "culture" in the locker room. On top of that they added 4 or 5 new players at the beginning of the year (2 new starters on opening night) moved AB to the 4 and then tell me that this young, talent deprived squad wasn't adversely effected by a lack of a camp.

    The bottom line is they just aren't talented or experienced enough regardless of a TC but that does not negate the fact that camp (and summer league to a lesser degree) is extremely important.
    Great post.

    Don't forget with the compact schedule, there was limited time to practice. Early in the season they had full practices in between back to backs or after back to backs. However as the season wore on this was no longer feasible without running the risk of guys dropping like flies. The opportunities to teach were limited and video sessions or shoot arounds are not the same from my experience and in my opinion.

    Systems and rotations that should have been taught in training camp and honed in season were introduced pre season, taught during season, and honed towards the end of season. Unfortunately, now there are 3 guys playing significant minutes on 10 day contracts so I don't know where this leaves the Raptors now.

    Anyways, I'm babbling now..... great post.

  13. #73
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Yes it should be considering the fact that Colangelo built around Bosh because he said it many, many times. Scouting is about finding out who the player is now and speculating about what he can be later. Obviously they missed the mark on who they felt Bargnani would become. Again, you can't question the motives of Colangelo in 2006 based on what we know now. That doesn't make any sense.
    I don't always agree with you but I certainly respect your opinion.

    I think Colangelo saying this was relative to saying "I can't draft or acquire franchise changing talent so I'm going to call Bosh a franchise player and see where this goes".

    How can we honestly believe this (building around Bosh) when after he left he suddenly is saying that he is indeed not a franchise player, not the type of player to build around and he's thankful he didn't shackle the team with max handcuffs? Every team is going to have some kind of player turnover every year. Just because he signs a free agent or trades for someone doesn't necessarily mean it is done with an effort to building around Bosh because what players did he acquire (Jose doesn't count as he was here before BC) that actually complimented his game? His draft picks in the Bosh era weren't moves focused on complimenting Bosh's skills and game. I'm sure you'll disagree with this but I know you follow the game, when reviewing his player acquisitions does the list of players appear to be players that complimented his best player?

    If Bosh had taken the extension Colangelo would be saying the opposite. I don't trust anything Colangelo says and the more he says something doesn't bring anymore truth to it.

  14. #74
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post

    If Bosh had taken the extension Colangelo would be saying the opposite. I don't trust anything Colangelo says and the more he says something doesn't bring anymore truth to it.
    I have questioned several of BC's decisions including handling of Bosh's transfer and even the barbosa trade. I can see where you are coming from. But I have to ask - Are other GMs any better?

  15. #75
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I kind of agree with LBF regarding the lockout excuse.

    Even if we had a full training camp, any team with a new coach would be at a disadvantage compared to established coaches (who already have familiarity with their teams). The lockout might exaggerate that disadvantage a bit, but I don't like the idea of using it as an excuse either.
    I agree. i'm not disagreeing with the disadvantage, but the disadvantage of the lockout is equal to all 30 teams.

    A new coach is always at a disadvantage. But, even if we were at the biggest disadvantage due to the lockout. That's no longer valid in mid-april.

    Also, even if there was no lockout we still wouldn't make the playoffs. Nor will we make the playoffs next year at least it's very unlikely.

  16. #76
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    I don't always agree with you but I certainly respect your opinion.

    I think Colangelo saying this was relative to saying "I can't draft or acquire franchise changing talent so I'm going to call Bosh a franchise player and see where this goes".

    How can we honestly believe this (building around Bosh) when after he left he suddenly is saying that he is indeed not a franchise player, not the type of player to build around and he's thankful he didn't shackle the team with max handcuffs? Every team is going to have some kind of player turnover every year. Just because he signs a free agent or trades for someone doesn't necessarily mean it is done with an effort to building around Bosh because what players did he acquire (Jose doesn't count as he was here before BC) that actually complimented his game? His draft picks in the Bosh era weren't moves focused on complimenting Bosh's skills and game. I'm sure you'll disagree with this but I know you follow the game, when reviewing his player acquisitions does the list of players appear to be players that complimented his best player?

    If Bosh had taken the extension Colangelo would be saying the opposite. I don't trust anything Colangelo says and the more he says something doesn't bring anymore truth to it.
    I think that the very first thing bc did was attempt to go with a suns like team around bosh by bringing in tj and then the surrounding him with shooters. was working as evidenced in a coach of the year award and another executive of the year award. we all blew as hard as we could about how good we were going to be. bosh was ecstatic and everything was right in raptorland. then the proverbial shit hit the fan. our anchor went against the wishes of those who invested heavily in him and played for spain, a feud erupted between our point guards and then, the better of the two(at the time) in my opinion was pile drived into as near to cripple with the ability to walk as you can get.

    the next off season was an attempt at re-capturing the forward momentum we had lost and failed. then a last ditch effort to swing for the fences with hedo, no longer in build around bosh but now in a build to hopefully not lose bosh mode, screwed us for a year. lost a very good player for next to nothing and actually started building a team again. as a franchise we were in purgatory for a couple years after garbo and tj and are just now getting realizing where we are and who we are again.

    i don't remember bosh ever saying he was only ever a complimentary player and didn't deserve max money. if they could have worked all 3 of them getting paid in miami, they all would have. i do remember them talking about the couple of million in non endorsement deals they would be leaving on the table like it was the most noble of things anyone could ever do. whilst immediately signing lucrative milk sponsorships.

  17. #77
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    I have no idea why we ditched Marion because we didn't want to pay him 10 mill. and then signed Hedo(the worse of the two) for more.

  18. #78
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    Default Waste of time

    I think that this discussion is a lot of panicking.

    For the first time in recent history we have a coach who is capable of actually coaching our team and changing the culture. We are in a good position with cap space and a high pick in a decent draft. I am not sure what more you could ask for.

    As for Ed, he is way better than people think and he takes a lot flack because he can't shoot. 2 seasons, no training camp. He is one of the best defenders we have both on and off the ball and is clearly one of our best shot blockers and rebounders.

    The fact is we're way off from being a title contender, but so are 25 other teams. All we can do is work with what we have and put the right management in place.

  19. #79
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    ...As for Ed, he is way better than people think and he takes a lot flack because he can't shoot. 2 seasons, no training camp. ....
    So a guy is making NBA money. He misses two training camps. He is off all summer and into the fall. He has atrocious shot mechanics. He can't hire a shooting coach for 3 months, for $50 - 70,000 to work with him every day and correct his atrocious shot? Because he's what...waiting for coach Casey to tell him how to shoot? Or because he's too busy playing video games?

    Every body says he has to bulk up. What was he doing from last April until this past November? Not spending time in the gym obviously. Does he realize it's on him to get better? If so, what has he improved from last year. If he doesn't change his head around he will be out of the league or a perennial 13th guy off the bench in 3 years.

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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    So a guy is making NBA money. He misses two training camps. He is off all summer and into the fall. He has atrocious shot mechanics. He can't hire a shooting coach for 3 months, for $50 - 70,000 to work with him every day and correct his atrocious shot? Because he's what...waiting for coach Casey to tell him how to shoot? Or because he's too busy playing video games?

    Every body says he has to bulk up. What was he doing from last April until this past November? Not spending time in the gym obviously. Does he realize it's on him to get better? If so, what has he improved from last year. If he doesn't change his head around he will be out of the league or a perennial 13th guy off the bench in 3 years.
    I can't disagree with you. He is on thin ice. We know he showed up in pretty bad shape, and as far as what e brings to the table today, he is replaceable for sure. At the same time Ed takes a lot of criticism and in a lot of ways he doesn't deserve it. He has shown too much potential for everyone to write him off or not give him the same leash which demar is given.

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