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Thread: Jose Watch 2012: Colangelo hints Jose will not be amnestied (#46)

  1. #21
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    What do you question about his leadership ability in particular?
    Mostly his credibility. At one time I believed he had a promising career but he has failed to deliver the goods. A real leader brings with him the ability to bring about change for the better. Jose doesn't make those around him better as you can see the teams winning% is the same with him or without him. As a leader on a young team they have to trust that he understands their individual abilities and will compliment and reinforce their skills. The tandem of JC and AB doesn't instill the problems for opposing teams that their most optimistic fans think and a change has to be made.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    I really think this has more to do with the money than with what Jose brings to the table. I think we've had him for long enough that management knows what they're dealing with. I'm much more concerned about BC's penchant for overpaying guys; I'm more worried about BC just offering him like 6.5 mil a year than I am about Jose demanding it/not living up to expectations.

  3. #23
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    Mostly his credibility. At one time I believed he had a promising career but he has failed to deliver the goods. A real leader brings with him the ability to bring about change for the better. Jose doesn't make those around him better as you can see the teams winning% is the same with him or without him. As a leader on a young team they have to trust that he understands their individual abilities and will compliment and reinforce their skills. The tandem of JC and AB doesn't instill the problems for opposing teams that their most optimistic fans think and a change has to be made.
    If you watch him play I think it's clear he does make people around him better . I also think its shortsighted to blame him for his GM's inability to supply him with lots of quality talent. He's not a superstar and so why are you putting such an expectation on him like having to carry the team? It's not realistic in my opinion but if you feel differently please provide realistic examples of players who could have done better?

    You're also totally ignoring that he was a leader on a world champion national team. He had lots of talent around him there and I won't give him all the credit because he's one piece of that puzzle.
    Last edited by Apollo; Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 03:35 PM. Reason: iphone

  4. #24
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    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You are obviously enamored by him while I am not.
    In other words you put much more weight on his positives than what I think his overall game warrants.
    If you think he makes his teammates better tell me who.
    As I've stated a couple of days ago, in the right circumstances Jose could start on a championship team.
    That isn't the situation here.

  5. #25
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    He's a great floor general. He makes everyone better with his high ball IQ and good shooting. Your whole argument is that he's not a good leader because of his win %. That's weak ground. It would be different if you said I think he's a poor leader for this, that and the other thing and also see here, the win percentage further validates my argument but you're not doing that. What you're doing is suggesting he's a poor leader because his team doesn't win many games. Do you see the flaw in this line of thinking?

  6. #26
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He's a great floor general. He makes everyone better with his high ball IQ and good shooting. Your whole argument is that he's not a good leader because of his win %. That's weak ground. It would be different if you said I think he's a poor leader for this, that and the other thing and also see here, the win percentage further validates my argument but you're not doing that. What you're doing is suggesting he's a poor leader because his team doesn't win many games. Do you see the flaw in this line of thinking?

    +1

    Calderon has been very underrated for most of his career, when healthy, hes one of the best distributors out there... and i wouldnt be shocked to see him at the top of APG list with some quality talent around, and youd probably see his shooting go up...JV and a couple quality acquisitions might be just the thing he needs.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    The Raptors have lost with Jose, Demar, Bosh, Ed Davis, Amir, JJ, Andre, and all the rest, for the last two years. You could then say that none of those players makes any one around them better.

    If you don't like Jose, no problem. Who are you going to trade him for that would be better? And who are you going to get to replace him with that would be better? Jose is not overpaid as a PG with the numbers he produces. And there is a strong likelihood that if he plays out his contract, he would re-sign at a more moderate one. If you trade him, who could you get as a back-up that would do as well as Jose would in 2013-2014 if he came back?

    And please, where did this "What has he won" BS get started. Like there haven't been great player that never won a championship in the NBA. What a crock. it takes talent, coaching, management, and the luck of an injury free season to your front line player to win a championship. sometimes the luck of the draw as well, since every team matches up better against some teams then others.

  8. #28
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    If you don't like Jose, no problem. Who are you going to trade him for that would be better? And who are you going to get to replace him with that would be better?
    These are the kinds of logical questions that need answering when anyone suggests he should be traded. I personally changed my tune when I realized what was available in the draft and free agency. It's slim pickings and so what is available is going to go at a premium...

  9. #29
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    What is the criteria you're basing this statement on?
    2008-09 was the first yr. of his new/current contract.

    Looking at the 4 seasons since...his pts./game and ast/game....

    12.8 10.3 9.8 10.5

    8.9 5.9 8.9 8.8

    Except for the large drop off in assists in the season 2 yrs before the current (per my post) my eye test based memory does not match the stats in most areas which are fairly similar.

    From: Basketball.reference.com

  10. #30
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He's a great floor general. He makes everyone better with his high ball IQ and good shooting. Your whole argument is that he's not a good leader because of his win %. That's weak ground. It would be different if you said I think he's a poor leader for this, that and the other thing and also see here, the win percentage further validates my argument but you're not doing that. What you're doing is suggesting he's a poor leader because his team doesn't win many games. Do you see the flaw in this line of thinking?
    To be clear I am a Jose fan and agree with your assessment of his talents and leadership qualities and think he would be a great mentor to any young pg the Raps bring in to groom as his replacement of the future. I do however think that this guys point is not the winning percentage being low, but that is is the same with or without Jose on the floor.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Ok, I just want to throw something out there about this whole "lifer" thing. I know if you take it literally, he doesn't fully qualify, but can we get some thoughts on Alvin Williams as a Raptor? He came to Toronto via trade in his first season and played all of his career in Toronto, basically. He obviously had a shortened career, but I think it's stupid to count his 10 day contract with the Clippers as being significant. He was done well before that, struggling to recover from injuries.
    So maybe Jose has the best shot at the moment to be a "lifer" in the truest sense of the word, but the closest so far, and I think close enough to be called so, is Alvin. Alvin was a warrior who was basically only ever a Raptor, and he's even still with the team.
    I don't know how this became basically another "do you like/hate Jose?" thread in a lot of ways, but regardless of personal thoughts, he does have a real shot given he could soon transition to backup/mentor if we get a young replacement soon enough. I think we might also re-sign him after he's up on his contract if there are no upgrades in FA, because even if we maybe draft a PG in a year, we'll still need a vet. Jose could fit in our plans for awhile, almost by default.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Mon Apr 23rd, 2012 at 07:22 PM.

  12. #32
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    Won't happen. Next season he's going to be traded at the deadline for a TPE. We know how much BC loves those.

  13. #33
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He's a great floor general. He makes everyone better with his high ball IQ and good shooting. Your whole argument is that he's not a good leader because of his win %. That's weak ground. It would be different if you said I think he's a poor leader for this, that and the other thing and also see here, the win percentage further validates my argument but you're not doing that. What you're doing is suggesting he's a poor leader because his team doesn't win many games. Do you see the flaw in this line of thinking?
    When you asked me what it was that caused me to question his leadership ability my reply was a lack of credibility. Everyone has a certain amount of promise or potential when they come into the league and a true leader learns how to manifest that promise in his teammates into something tangible. I'm not saying you have to win a championship to have credibility but if you have at least garnered votes as an all-star that shows something that is respected by young players.
    As far as having a high IQ and being a great floor general again I disagree. He misses lots of opportunities when he pulls up on breaks because he doesn't have the confidence to finish. A great floor general is Steve Nash. A decent floor general is Jose Calderone. With Jose at the point we know what we've got and it's not getting better. I'd rather see somebody else get a chance.

  14. #34
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    Grown man calderon needs to stay a raptor. Let him back up dragic

  15. #35
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote CT2010 wrote: View Post
    To be clear I am a Jose fan and agree with your assessment of his talents and leadership qualities and think he would be a great mentor to any young pg the Raps bring in to groom as his replacement of the future. I do however think that this guys point is not the winning percentage being low, but that is is the same with or without Jose on the floor.
    I got the point but when you're talking about a high lotto team no one other than a superstar can pull them out of that. Now what exactly do the naysayers see that he's doing wrong? I'm still waiting for something to support stats which haven't been provided...

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    All coaches appreciate Calderon-type players. He can play a starter for another 2 years easily. The only thing I don't like about him is his contract. Mind you there are worse contracts but you simply cannot pay a pass-first PG 10million/ year unless he defends 1/2 ,scores and distributes like the old Jkidd.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Seriously guys, no love for Alvin Williams? =P

  18. #38
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Seriously guys, no love for Alvin Williams? =P
    All over Alvin, and you are right. He pretty much meets the definition of lifer. If only his "life" with the Raptors hadn't been so short. He pretty much gave up his knees playing for them.

  19. #39
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Seriously guys, no love for Alvin Williams? =P
    He also played for other teams. He's DQed.

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He also played for other teams. He's DQed.
    Barely =P....43 games....41 in his rookie year in Portland and 2 games on a 10 day contract for LAC after we waived him.

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