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Casey setting the bar for next season: Playoffs

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  • #31
    playmak3r5 wrote: View Post
    We keep Anderson, Gray, and likely Magloire. Everyone else goes.
    only gray and magloire for me. id rather klieza play play the 4 or jj instead of anderson. bayless is a fencer right now depending on what kind of price the open market puts on him.

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    • #32
      I think the playoffs have to be a goal for next year. Raptor fans are not Leaf fans and will not continue to sell-out every game no matter what the record. Somehow I don't think Casey has that attitude, either. I'm not being unrealistic and expecting a deep playoff run, but for me at least making it in is a must-have. People will argue that a first round loss is worse as it lowers your draft pick, but that is BS now. Toronto is never going to be as bad as Charlotte, so I would MUCH prefer to see post season games than a chance at a slightly higher pick. Let players see what the ACC can be like in the playoffs, even if its only for a game or two. That's my interpretation of what Casey said.

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      • #33
        The NBA is a really hard league to re-build in. I don't envy the job that the Raps' front office has to do.

        How can you go from a basement-dwelling team to a playoff contender? (And by contender, I mean actually a threat to go deep, not just to sneak in at 8th place and be out in 4 games.) Generally, you need a lot of money, a lot of luck, brilliant management, or a combination of all the above.

        I like the point someone made about a "foundation" not necessarily being an all-star or two, but a philosophy. This seems to be part of what happened in Denver this year, where an un-spectacular cast did some impressive things. The way Dallas went from nothing in the 90s to a perennial contender...well, I guess they had Nowitzki as a foundation, but from what I've read and seen, Mark Cuban changed the "culture" in Dallas, and that led to long-term success.

        Having said that, even if you do all the right things from the management point of view, you set a good tone of solid defense, etc etc etc...there's still a lot of luck and things you can't control. Injuries, first-rounders not working out, players requesting trades because they don't want to live in Canada.

        I guess all you can do is manage the team as best you can, control the things that are within your control, and hope for the best.
        _________________________

        Celebrating the Futility of the Toronto Raptors:
        http://www.holycraptors.com

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        • #34
          Holy Craptors wrote: View Post
          The NBA is a really hard league to re-build in. I don't envy the job that the Raps' front office has to do.

          How can you go from a basement-dwelling team to a playoff contender? (And by contender, I mean actually a threat to go deep, not just to sneak in at 8th place and be out in 4 games.) Generally, you need a lot of money, a lot of luck, brilliant management, or a combination of all the above.

          I like the point someone made about a "foundation" not necessarily being an all-star or two, but a philosophy. This seems to be part of what happened in Denver this year, where an un-spectacular cast did some impressive things. The way Dallas went from nothing in the 90s to a perennial contender...well, I guess they had Nowitzki as a foundation, but from what I've read and seen, Mark Cuban changed the "culture" in Dallas, and that led to long-term success.

          Having said that, even if you do all the right things from the management point of view, you set a good tone of solid defense, etc etc etc...there's still a lot of luck and things you can't control. Injuries, first-rounders not working out, players requesting trades because they don't want to live in Canada.

          I guess all you can do is manage the team as best you can, control the things that are within your control, and hope for the best.
          Colangelo has done it twice.

          In Phoenix he took them from 22 wins to a perennial top team. Who knows what would have happened if Sarver would have gone in to the luxury tax - keeping Joe Johnson when he was a free agent and Luol Deng as a rookie immediately comes to mind.

          In Toronto he took a 27 win team to 47 wins. Unfortunately that was not built to last.

          Whatever happens in Toronto, I hope something is built that last longer than 2 seasons and 2 first round exits in the playoffs.

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          • #35
            Matt52 wrote: View Post
            Colangelo has done it twice.

            In Phoenix he took them from 22 wins to a perennial top team. Who knows what would have happened if Sarver would have gone in to the luxury tax - keeping Joe Johnson when he was a free agent and Luol Deng as a rookie immediately comes to mind.

            In Toronto he took a 27 win team to 47 wins. Unfortunately that was not built to last.

            Whatever happens in Toronto, I hope something is built that last longer than 2 seasons and 2 first round exits in the playoffs.
            Is was impressive when Toronto made that leap in 2006-07, and I agree that Colangelo did a great job. Do you think that their success that year was exaggerated by a weak division? It was Boston pre-Big 3, Knicks and Sixers rebuilding, etc.

            Not trying to take anything away from Colangelo...just the opposite, actually; maybe that initial success made us judge the following seasons with unfair expectations?
            _________________________

            Celebrating the Futility of the Toronto Raptors:
            http://www.holycraptors.com

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            • #36
              Sometimes I question Colangelo. I mean it should have been evident he couldn't sign Barnes and he still tried. Was it a bonehead move or was he tryin to pull one over the nba?
              If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

              Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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              • #37
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                "Past the building stage" doesn't mean "building is over". Do you think Casey feels this team can win next year as is just by telling the guys "ok, now our focus is winning so win"?

                The more I think about his statements the more I think he's only talking about the establishment of the system. He's been building that all season and maybe he feels the foundation is in place and next year he's going with guys who produce as opposed to calling a guy's number just to get him minutes and to see what he can do.
                The man said it's "past the building stage". Why infer something else into that?

                They are one year into a rebuild and now the building is over? No, the building should just be starting.

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                • #38
                  Nilanka wrote: View Post
                  If we're going strictly by Casey's quote, then he did imply that building is over. You can't go past a "stage" while continuing to stay within it.

                  But from a general view of the state of the franchise, it's clear that Casey's not done building. The guys still have a lot to learn about winning consistently.
                  Maybe, but if they are saying that they are going to get experience, which most fans that have supported the rebuidling process have rejected as a short-term fix, why would I assume his comments were not exactly as he said them.

                  To me, the fact that they said the emphsasis is to go get experienced players already indicates to me that they feel that they are going to try and win now, instead of taking a long-term plan like OKC did. Draft picks, and young players is building. Acquiring veterans for the purpose of making the playoffs is not.

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                  • #39
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Casey might be speaking from a future perspective. He may have an idea of what types of players or transactions are on the horizon. I fully expect come training camp the roster to be much different than it is today.

                    The role players are in place (ED, AMIR, DD, JJ, LK, JC, maybe Aaron Gray)
                    The fringe players don't matter (Uzoh, Alabi, Anderson, Forbes, Magloire)
                    2 pillars are in place (AB and JV).

                    What gets added this summer through draft, free agency, or trade is to be determined.


                    Regardless of what pieces are added, there has been a shift in philosophy and expectation in the franchise. Is the house finished? Not yet but the most important part of the house is definitely done: the foundation.
                    2 Pillars? Really?

                    That is not a foundation. A rook who while might turn otu to be good, you don't know what you are going to get yet and a high paid average scorer?

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                    • #40
                      slaw wrote: View Post
                      Tim Duncan is a foundation. Lebron James, Durant, Kobe, Nash, Rose, Griffin, Nowitzki, Pierce. Those guys are foundations. Pairs like Gasol/Randolph, Jefferson/Milsap - those are foundations. Groups like Afflalo/Lawson/Gallo can be foundations.

                      The Raptors do not have a foundation. Building your basketball team on top of Bargnani is like building your house with a base of paper mache. Now, if JV and the 2012 pick turn out to be stars, then you've got a foundation. But that is far from a certainty.
                      Agree and support this opinion 100%.

                      Didn't most of the "true rebuild" fans dread this attitude from management earlier on in the year?

                      What's changed?

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                      • #41
                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        That is your opinion.

                        Your opinion appears to be that the foundation is a player.

                        My opinion is the foundation is the philosophy of the team (players, coaches, management) and everyone must be on the same page. This year has been very successful in changing the minds of what people who matter (i.e. other NBA coaches and players) think of when they hear Toronto Raptors. Toronto is no longer a joke and if you don't bring your game, they are going to beat you.

                        Successful teams (i.e. championship and deep playoff runs) are built on more than talented players. They are important, very important, but they are not the only important ingredient in the recipe.
                        You just mentioned all of the players and declared some of them as "pillars".

                        Succesful championship teams are built on talented players with championship intangibles.

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                        • #42
                          sleepz wrote: View Post
                          Maybe, but if they are saying that they are going to get experience, which most fans that have supported the rebuidling process have rejected as a short-term fix, why would I assume his comments were not exactly as he said them.

                          To me, the fact that they said the emphsasis is to go get experienced players already indicates to me that they feel that they are going to try and win now, instead of taking a long-term plan like OKC did. Draft picks, and young players is building. Acquiring veterans for the purpose of making the playoffs is not.
                          Should we assume that "experience" is synonymous with "aging veterans"? For example, Rudy Gay has experience, but he's got plenty of basketball life left in his tank. It's a win-now move that doesn't sacrifice the future.

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                          • #43
                            sleepz wrote: View Post
                            You just mentioned all of the players and declared some of them as "pillars".

                            Succesful championship teams are built on talented players with championship intangibles.
                            And pillars were not classified as the foundation.

                            If I failed to explain my thoughts well enough, I apologize.

                            I thought it was originally clear and the subsequent explanations and clarifications added clarity.

                            If you still don't get my point or disagree with it - so be it.


                            *EDIT*

                            I'll take another stab at clarification because I don't think the term Pillar and Foundation is being used properly:

                            foundation: The basis on which a thing stands, is founded, or is supported.

                            pillar: A slender, freestanding, vertical support; a column.

                            The philosophy and shift in priorities within the organization (management, coaches, players) was the foundation upon which everything moving forward will be built upon.

                            The pillars are supports. The pillars reinforce the structure and are built upon the foundation.

                            The role players are your windows, doors, cabinets, etc. They are important things in the structure and functioning of the house but can be replaced if need be.

                            The fringe players are the interior paint. Easily changed at a moments notice.



                            Again, if you still don't agree, in the words of Derrick Coleman: Whoop De Damn Doo.
                            Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:41 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Alright let me set this straight. The pillars/foundations whatever the hell you want to call them are:

                              Bargnani
                              DeRozan
                              Valanciunas
                              This years pick
                              and maybe Ed Davis

                              the rest we don't know yet. Think what you want but the players i listed will more than likely be here next season.

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                              • #45
                                Okay. So let's break this down, architecture style.

                                You need pillars so you can reach your goal, otherwise you hit a glass ceiling. You also need a solid foundation, or else the structure won't be solid and you'll hit a wall. So if you have the pillars but no foundation, your attendance will go through the floor and criticism will go through the roof. But if you get the foundation without the pillars, you'll be knocking on the door of the playoffs, but ultimately on the outside looking in through a dirty window.

                                And if you have no foundation AND no pillars...well, then you end up in the basement. Like Charlotte.
                                _________________________

                                Celebrating the Futility of the Toronto Raptors:
                                http://www.holycraptors.com

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