Raps/Nets April 26th Turn out the lights...

[Beaverboi]

Honestly this game was all about home court, if the Raptors were at NJ they would be chucking up shots like they were all Rasual , and the Nets would have to win because it was their last game in NJ.

Was thinking the same thing. You think Toronto wanted to end the season being booed off the court, out of the building, down the road to the airport, off the runway and out of the country by 18000 people? That's what would have happened if they had played like NJ. Don't get me wrong, I would not have been upset with a loss, but not one like that. To put crap talent on the floor, play your ass off and lose, that's one thing. But to make it look obvious and that you don't care when you are making that much money (even 10 day D-leaguers are making WAY more money than I do) is just insulting to the fans whom actually pay their hard earned money to watch you play.

[Lark Benson]

Drafting a superstar does not require to get the #1 pick, just as getting the #1 pick does not guarantee the drafting of a superstar.

And to answer your questions : the Lakers got Kobe at #13. The Mavs got Dirk at #9. This draft is deep as few of the past ones were. Tanking is not a necessity, especially if it comes at the expense of pride.

You're referencing a set of past conditions that no longer apply. Back when you could draft kids straight from high school, yes you might be able to snag a superstar later in the draft. In fact the last time that happened was the last year it was allowed, when Bynum was selected 11th in 2005. Since then, Greg Munroe is the closest thing to a franchise player selected in the lottery outside the top 5.

The logic that drafting a franchise player requires a pick in the top 5 (and more realistically a top-3) is more true than ever now with the increased emphasis on scouting players in their first year of college. So yes, what you said is technically correct, but completely ignores how incredibly lucky you need to be in order to build a team with picks that are perennially in the 5-10 range. Because for every star you find in the lottery outside of the top 5, there are likely 8-9 players who don't fully live up to their potential. The mid to late lottery is a crapshoot in every sense of the word.

Would have thought that after 3 years of DeRozan and 2 years of Ed Davis, the importance of a higher draft slot would be glaringly obvious.

[Joe Buddy]

This is the type of retarded fan i'm talking about. This is why Toronto teams are lame-a$$. Satisfied with being mediocre. I'm a born and bred Torontonian that's sick of having loser teams. You're probably an immigrant that's just getting into the Toronto sports scene and don't play sports too well.

You're all for a team losing and you're calling Puffer, who basically took the words out of my mouth when I read your original post, retarded? The only retards are "fans" who cheer for their team to lose.

Apparently all of you tankers have it in your head that you can only build a winning team through the draft. Free agency and trades don't exist to you "fans". I guess you look at teams like OKC and Portland for guidance, but overlook teams like Sacramento, Washington, Charlotte, Minnesota, etc...teams who have been in the lottery the past few years and are still perennial losers.

Anyways, as Puffer said, you don't deserve this team.

[Fanchie]

You're referencing a set of past conditions that no longer apply. Back when you could draft kids straight from high school, yes you might be able to snag a superstar later in the draft. In fact the last time that happened was the last year it was allowed, when Bynum was selected 11th in 2005. Since then, Greg Munroe is the closest thing to a franchise player selected in the lottery outside the top 5.

The logic that drafting a franchise player requires a pick in the top 5 (and more realistically a top-3) is more true than ever now with the increased emphasis on scouting players in their first year of college. So yes, what you said is technically correct, but completely ignores how incredibly lucky you need to be in order to build a team with picks that are perennially in the 5-10 range. Because for every star you find in the lottery outside of the top 5, there are likely 8-9 players who don't fully live up to their potential. The mid to late lottery is a crapshoot in every sense of the word.

Would have thought that after 3 years of DeRozan and 2 years of Ed Davis, the importance of a higher draft slot would be glaringly obvious.

If Monroe is what you call a superstar, then I'll just list the following (some are pre-2005, but they did not come straight from high school) :

Rondo
Ginobili
Parker
Pierce
Marc Gasol
Gay
Noah
Nene
Joe Johnson
Hibbert
Paul George

and I can go on. All these guys were drafted out of the Top 5 and I would be glad for our pick to bring us a guy like this.

Would I rather draft Anthony Davis or MKG ? Sure.

But if you look at the most promising teams on the rise right now (Pacers or Grizzlies), they were built around one or sometimes no Top 5 pick and a high level supporting cast. We have 2 top 5 picks with Bargs and JV. And this draft can bring us a fine young man, even around #7/8.

You never know what positive outcome tanking can bring you. But I can tell you the one negative thing you get : shame.

[Nilanka]

You never know what positive outcome tanking can bring you. But I can tell you the one negative thing you get : shame.

Just to play devil's advocate, does it really matter how we lose? Losing is shameful on it's own. Airballing free throws is shameful. Getting ejected from games is shameful. Giving up 20-0 runs is shameful. Blowing 18 point leads is shameful. If we add tanking to that list, does it really make any difference in the grand view of an awful season?

And will anyone care about the "shame" when we're winning in the future? I know I won't.

[ceez]

Just saw the nets started Deshawn Stevenson at PF? Just wow.

[Lark Benson]

If Monroe is what you call a superstar, then I'll just list the following (some are pre-2005, but they did not come straight from high school) :

Rondo
Ginobili
Parker
Pierce
Marc Gasol
Gay
Noah
Nene
Joe Johnson
Hibbert
Paul George

and I can go on. All these guys were drafted out of the Top 5 and I would be glad for our pick to bring us a guy like this.

First off, I said Greg Munroe was the closest thing to a franchise player, not that he's a superstar.

So you make a list of 11 guys that worked out. Want me to hit you back with the list of guys who didn't? Because that list is several hundred strong.

My point still stands; outside of the top 5 the success rate plummets dramatically. It's a crapshoot.

I would add that the Pacres and Grizzlies may have built successful teams, but they aren't teams that are, or will be, able to compete for a championship without a significant trade to exchange some of their depth for talent upgrades.

[LBF]

Paul George is going to be a damn nice player.

But, the guy did say past five years and Ginobili is over that.As well as Johnson and Parker.

[Fanchie]

First off, I said Greg Munroe was the closest thing to a franchise player, not that he's a superstar.

So you make a list of 11 guys that worked out. Want me to hit you back with the list of guys who didn't? Because that list is several hundred strong.

My point still stands; outside of the top 5 the success rate plummets dramatically. It's a crapshoot.

I would add that the Pacres and Grizzlies may have built successful teams, but they aren't teams that are, or will be, able to compete for a championship without a significant trade to exchange some of their depth for talent upgrades.

If your point is that you're more likely to draft a superstar with a top 5 pick, we all agree.

What i'm saying is that as sweet as it'd be to draft Anthony Davis, I'm not ready to see the Raps tank as hard as the Nets did to do so.

If you watched DC's press conference, pride, hard work and team culture are more likely to being success than tanking. Otherwise, teams like SA would not have been able to maintain that high a level year after year.

I want the Raps to become a team where players are happy to land because they know what the culture is and that it's all about winning. Not cross fingers every freaking lottery day.

What brings you to championship level is class act coaching cause it makes what you have better and what you don't more likely to join. And we have this. We should be focusing on this.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

If your point is that you're more likely to draft a superstar with a top 5 pick, we all agree.

What i'm saying is that as sweet as it'd be to draft Anthony Davis, I'm not ready to see the Raps tank as hard as the Nets did to do so.

If you watched DC's press conference, pride, hard work and team culture are more likely to being success than tanking. Otherwise, teams like SA would not have been able to maintain that high a level year after year.

I want the Raps to become a team where players are happy to land because they know what the culture is and that it's all about winning. Not cross fingers every freaking lottery day.

What brings you to championship level is class act coaching cause it makes what you have better and what you don't more likely to join. And we have this. We should be focusing on this.

Knowing that a top-5 pick in the draft is perhaps the most significant way of improving a team, yet not rooting for what is the best opportunity of ensuring a top-5 pick, is what makes being a fan and contemplating 'tanking' such a conundrum.

Coaching is important. Culture change is important. In the NBA, especially, talent is king. Without talent, the rest is only effective if your team's goal is to be content competing for the 8th playoff spot year in and year out.

1) The best way to improve a team and significantly turnaround a franchise is by drafting a stud player, which is much more likely with a top-5 (or top 2/3) draft pick.

2) The best way to improve a team's culture and identity, is by winning. Winning begets winning. Winning improves team morale, which in term improves team chemistry.

3) Winning and improving team culture/identity, in addition to having respected management and coaching staffs, together is what will lure big time free agents. Also, having young superstar type players (aka: franchise cornerstones drafted in the top-5 of a draft) is another proven way of attracting free agents.

I am a fan of the Raptors and have been since it was announced that the city would get a franchise. I submitted name ideas for the franchise (and no, "Raptors" was most definitely one I submitted). I understand the game, the league and the business of professional sports. I will always be a Raptors fan, but I cringe at the argument that being a fan and supporting tanking is a black & white issue, because it is not. From the beginning of the season, I was rooting for the Raptors and quietly optimistic of sneaking into the playoffs in a weak Eastern conference. Once the wheels fell off and reality set in, I was able to switch gears and understand what was in the best long-term interests of this franchise, which I believe begins in drafting one of the top picks in this year's draft. I was never rooting for the Raptors to lose, or rooting for tanking; I was rooting for the Raptors to be the best possible Raptors team next season and beyond, and I was able to take emotion out of the equation and realize that rooting for a top-5 pick WAS rooting for the Raptors. I never wanted the coaching staff or players to quit, never ever. However, I was rooting for more ping-pong balls and am now rooting for luck in the lottery. I am not ashamed of that and believe it is in the best interest of building the best possible Raptors team for next season and beyond, which I feel makes me an optimistic, realist sort of fan. I don't judge my fellow Raptor fans and appreciate varying opinions on all things Raptors (which is why I love RR!); just don't question whether I am a true, loyal fan, simply because I place such high value on a top-5 pick in this year's draft and hope like hell the Raps are lucky enough to land one.

Sorry for the Friday rant... playoffs next season for the Raptors!

[planetmars]

Casey is a great coach but great coaches can lose a lot of games when they don't have talent. Pat Riley is a perfect example of one when he coached the Heat. Despite the Bobcats record breaking season they had this year, Paul Silas is also a very good coach.

I think a good coach/culture is just a small part of what makes a championship caliber team. The most important quality is talent however and a top 5 pick would give you the best opportunity to get one, especially if the team has always had a challenge in acquiring top end free agents.

[Fanchie]

Knowing that a top-5 pick in the draft is perhaps the most significant way of improving a team, yet not rooting for what is the best opportunity of ensuring a top-5 pick, is what makes being a fan and contemplating 'tanking' such a conundrum.

Coaching is important. Culture change is important. In the NBA, especially, talent is king. Without talent, the rest is only effective if your team's goal is to be content competing for the 8th playoff spot year in and year out.

1) The best way to improve a team and significantly turnaround a franchise is by drafting a stud player, which is much more likely with a top-5 (or top 2/3) draft pick.

2) The best way to improve a team's culture and identity, is by winning. Winning begets winning. Winning improves team morale, which in term improves team chemistry.

3) Winning and improving team culture/identity, in addition to having respected management and coaching staffs, together is what will lure big time free agents. Also, having young superstar type players (aka: franchise cornerstones drafted in the top-5 of a draft) is another proven way of attracting free agents.

I am a fan of the Raptors and have been since it was announced that the city would get a franchise. I submitted name ideas for the franchise (and no, "Raptors" was most definitely one I submitted). I understand the game, the league and the business of professional sports. I will always be a Raptors fan, but I cringe at the argument that being a fan and supporting tanking is a black & white issue, because it is not. From the beginning of the season, I was rooting for the Raptors and quietly optimistic of sneaking into the playoffs in a weak Eastern conference. Once the wheels fell off and reality set in, I was able to switch gears and understand what was in the best long-term interests of this franchise, which I believe begins in drafting one of the top picks in this year's draft. I was never rooting for the Raptors to lose, or rooting for tanking; I was rooting for the Raptors to be the best possible Raptors team next season and beyond, and I was able to take emotion out of the equation and realize that rooting for a top-5 pick WAS rooting for the Raptors. I never wanted the coaching staff or players to quit, never ever. However, I was rooting for more ping-pong balls and am now rooting for luck in the lottery. I am not ashamed of that and believe it is in the best interest of building the best possible Raptors team for next season and beyond, which I feel makes me an optimistic, realist sort of fan. I don't judge my fellow Raptor fans and appreciate varying opinions on all things Raptors (which is why I love RR!); just don't question whether I am a true, loyal fan, simply because I place such high value on a top-5 pick in this year's draft and hope like hell the Raps are lucky enough to land one.

Sorry for the Friday rant... playoffs next season for the Raptors!

For the record I was all for losing with fighting as much as we could. And for me it is very different from tanking.

Be confident. Top 10 pick in this draft will be sweet. And as for a top 5 pick, don't forget we have one in Jonas. Until someone proves me wrong, he could be our superstar.

[Nilanka]

Knowing that a top-5 pick in the draft is perhaps the most significant way of improving a team, yet not rooting for what is the best opportunity of ensuring a top-5 pick, is what makes being a fan and contemplating 'tanking' such a conundrum.

Coaching is important. Culture change is important. In the NBA, especially, talent is king. Without talent, the rest is only effective if your team's goal is to be content competing for the 8th playoff spot year in and year out.

1) The best way to improve a team and significantly turnaround a franchise is by drafting a stud player, which is much more likely with a top-5 (or top 2/3) draft pick.

2) The best way to improve a team's culture and identity, is by winning. Winning begets winning. Winning improves team morale, which in term improves team chemistry.

3) Winning and improving team culture/identity, in addition to having respected management and coaching staffs, together is what will lure big time free agents. Also, having young superstar type players (aka: franchise cornerstones drafted in the top-5 of a draft) is another proven way of attracting free agents.

I am a fan of the Raptors and have been since it was announced that the city would get a franchise. I submitted name ideas for the franchise (and no, "Raptors" was most definitely one I submitted). I understand the game, the league and the business of professional sports. I will always be a Raptors fan, but I cringe at the argument that being a fan and supporting tanking is a black & white issue, because it is not. From the beginning of the season, I was rooting for the Raptors and quietly optimistic of sneaking into the playoffs in a weak Eastern conference. Once the wheels fell off and reality set in, I was able to switch gears and understand what was in the best long-term interests of this franchise, which I believe begins in drafting one of the top picks in this year's draft. I was never rooting for the Raptors to lose, or rooting for tanking; I was rooting for the Raptors to be the best possible Raptors team next season and beyond, and I was able to take emotion out of the equation and realize that rooting for a top-5 pick WAS rooting for the Raptors. I never wanted the coaching staff or players to quit, never ever. However, I was rooting for more ping-pong balls and am now rooting for luck in the lottery. I am not ashamed of that and believe it is in the best interest of building the best possible Raptors team for next season and beyond, which I feel makes me an optimistic, realist sort of fan. I don't judge my fellow Raptor fans and appreciate varying opinions on all things Raptors (which is why I love RR!); just don't question whether I am a true, loyal fan, simply because I place such high value on a top-5 pick in this year's draft and hope like hell the Raps are lucky enough to land one.

Sorry for the Friday rant... playoffs next season for the Raptors!

Great post.

[Lark Benson]

Knowing that a top-5 pick in the draft is perhaps the most significant way of improving a team, yet not rooting for what is the best opportunity of ensuring a top-5 pick, is what makes being a fan and contemplating 'tanking' such a conundrum.

Coaching is important. Culture change is important. In the NBA, especially, talent is king. Without talent, the rest is only effective if your team's goal is to be content competing for the 8th playoff spot year in and year out.

1) The best way to improve a team and significantly turnaround a franchise is by drafting a stud player, which is much more likely with a top-5 (or top 2/3) draft pick.

2) The best way to improve a team's culture and identity, is by winning. Winning begets winning. Winning improves team morale, which in term improves team chemistry.

3) Winning and improving team culture/identity, in addition to having respected management and coaching staffs, together is what will lure big time free agents. Also, having young superstar type players (aka: franchise cornerstones drafted in the top-5 of a draft) is another proven way of attracting free agents.

I am a fan of the Raptors and have been since it was announced that the city would get a franchise. I submitted name ideas for the franchise (and no, "Raptors" was most definitely one I submitted). I understand the game, the league and the business of professional sports. I will always be a Raptors fan, but I cringe at the argument that being a fan and supporting tanking is a black & white issue, because it is not. From the beginning of the season, I was rooting for the Raptors and quietly optimistic of sneaking into the playoffs in a weak Eastern conference. Once the wheels fell off and reality set in, I was able to switch gears and understand what was in the best long-term interests of this franchise, which I believe begins in drafting one of the top picks in this year's draft. I was never rooting for the Raptors to lose, or rooting for tanking; I was rooting for the Raptors to be the best possible Raptors team next season and beyond, and I was able to take emotion out of the equation and realize that rooting for a top-5 pick WAS rooting for the Raptors. I never wanted the coaching staff or players to quit, never ever. However, I was rooting for more ping-pong balls and am now rooting for luck in the lottery. I am not ashamed of that and believe it is in the best interest of building the best possible Raptors team for next season and beyond, which I feel makes me an optimistic, realist sort of fan. I don't judge my fellow Raptor fans and appreciate varying opinions on all things Raptors (which is why I love RR!); just don't question whether I am a true, loyal fan, simply because I place such high value on a top-5 pick in this year's draft and hope like hell the Raps are lucky enough to land one.

Sorry for the Friday rant... playoffs next season for the Raptors!

Huge +1

[Matt52]

Knowing that a top-5 pick in the draft is perhaps the most significant way of improving a team, yet not rooting for what is the best opportunity of ensuring a top-5 pick, is what makes being a fan and contemplating 'tanking' such a conundrum.

Coaching is important. Culture change is important. In the NBA, especially, talent is king. Without talent, the rest is only effective if your team's goal is to be content competing for the 8th playoff spot year in and year out.

1) The best way to improve a team and significantly turnaround a franchise is by drafting a stud player, which is much more likely with a top-5 (or top 2/3) draft pick.

2) The best way to improve a team's culture and identity, is by winning. Winning begets winning. Winning improves team morale, which in term improves team chemistry.

3) Winning and improving team culture/identity, in addition to having respected management and coaching staffs, together is what will lure big time free agents. Also, having young superstar type players (aka: franchise cornerstones drafted in the top-5 of a draft) is another proven way of attracting free agents.

I am a fan of the Raptors and have been since it was announced that the city would get a franchise. I submitted name ideas for the franchise (and no, "Raptors" was most definitely one I submitted). I understand the game, the league and the business of professional sports. I will always be a Raptors fan, but I cringe at the argument that being a fan and supporting tanking is a black & white issue, because it is not. From the beginning of the season, I was rooting for the Raptors and quietly optimistic of sneaking into the playoffs in a weak Eastern conference. Once the wheels fell off and reality set in, I was able to switch gears and understand what was in the best long-term interests of this franchise, which I believe begins in drafting one of the top picks in this year's draft. I was never rooting for the Raptors to lose, or rooting for tanking; I was rooting for the Raptors to be the best possible Raptors team next season and beyond, and I was able to take emotion out of the equation and realize that rooting for a top-5 pick WAS rooting for the Raptors. I never wanted the coaching staff or players to quit, never ever. However, I was rooting for more ping-pong balls and am now rooting for luck in the lottery. I am not ashamed of that and believe it is in the best interest of building the best possible Raptors team for next season and beyond, which I feel makes me an optimistic, realist sort of fan. I don't judge my fellow Raptor fans and appreciate varying opinions on all things Raptors (which is why I love RR!); just don't question whether I am a true, loyal fan, simply because I place such high value on a top-5 pick in this year's draft and hope like hell the Raps are lucky enough to land one.

Sorry for the Friday rant... playoffs next season for the Raptors!

Nice post.

It summarizes the feelings I had the last few weeks as well.

Fingers crossed for luck on May 30.

[NoPropsneeded]

Where are the Moderators when you need em? this kid should be banned

[Matt52]

Where are the Moderators when you need em? this kid should be banned

I must have missed this last night, NoProps. Apologies. It will be addressed.

[NoPropsneeded]

I must have missed this last night, NoProps. Apologies. It will be addressed.

it is quite alright. The law needs to be enforced!

[raptors2012]

I agree with CalgaryRapsFan that it's good that there's a variety of opinions and I totally agree with the fact that we need talent. We all want a winning franchise but differ in opinions of getting there. For all those that are bashing my posts I just want to mention a few things.

1) Look how OKC built their team. Do you think that any players would have wanted to play there say 5 years ago? Between 2007~2009 they drafted KD 2nd, Russ 4th and Harden 3rd - 3 straight years~ Was there a winning culture during those times?

2) Now let's look at the past champions history & the MVPs since the MJ era:
Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas
Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
Paul Pierce, Boston
Tony Parker, San Antonio
Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat
Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons
Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Michael Jordan, Chicago
Michael Jordan, Chicago

If you look at the history (except for the Billups' Detroit team that defied logic) all of the teams had a top or couple of top draft picks or bought their way to the final by spending way into the luxury tax for years - more than anyone else eg. Dallas. Forgetting about the over-spenders, you can't tell me that if Kobe went to college he wouldn't have been a top pick. At that time teams were afraid to draft straight out of high school and even Kobe had Shaq for 3 rings and a stacked team for the other two. Also, euro drafting only got better recently. Who wanted to draft a euro player 10 or more years ago? The likes of Dirk, Parker, Gino would have all gone higher if they were drafted with today's scouts.

3) Going back to the way OKC built. They didn't have a Bargs type player when they were building the team. They drafted kids and told them to live and learn while they lost until more talent came - through the draft! Why are the Raptors trying to win now and rebuild? It's an oxy-moron. It might be too late to do this now but at the beginning of this year we should have gotten rid of Bargs, Calderon, Barbosa etc. I would include Demar too cause I don't have faith in him to lead a team in the future - more suited as a 6th man. We should have been picking up draft picks since the beginning of this year. You say we'll lose fans? Well, they'll come back once you build a team like OKC and they'll come back in droves.

So my point?
I'm only advocating tanking because management is doing a very poor job of trying to rebuild. I'M NOT SAYING THAT WE SHOULD INTENTIONALLY LOSE SEVERAL SEASONS!!! Just that if we're going to rebuild then trade the guys that other teams think will boost their lineups right now and pick up some future assets.

Even if this team is losing, as long as there's talent, excitement and hope then I'll keep watching. Right now I think we're on track to becoming another mediocre team. Unless we win the lottery~