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Thread: Typical Toronto Team

  1. #21
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    But, is FINE enough? I think that's what he's getting at. The truth about that can't be answered until after year 5. We are currently after year 2. If I'mnot mistaken.
    With a coach like Casey, and as many young, talented assets as we have (and will have); when I say FINE, I mean we will be exactly where many of us here at RR envision us being. Competitive year in, and year out.
    "I have self-doubt. I have insecurity. I have fear of failure. We all have self-doubt. You don't deny it, but you also don't capitulate to it. You embrace it. You rise above it." -Kobe Bryant

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    the f-ck?

    Someone hack into LBFs account and start making nice posts? Hahah
    Was I really making mean posts? Cause that was not my intention.

    I apologize if I did. The season just made me miserable. I'm fine now because there is finally some good basketball ti be played.

    I said I was excited about the off-season and next season. Just not the past one. In fact, I don't even want to talk about it.

    Just a joke all around.

  3. #23
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    With a coach like Casey, and as many young, talented assets as we have (and will have); when I say FINE, I mean we will be exactly where many of us here at RR envision us being. Competitive year in, and year out.
    I know what you mean. But, I think it's more of a young potential than talent.

    But, like i said year 2...year 5.

  4. #24
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Just because his opinion is something you disagree with and even if it was a heat of the moment overreaction.

    You can't tell someone not to have an opinion because you don't like it.

    The man is a human being and has feelings just like you.

    If anything he deserves an explanation as to why you disagree with him. Not just to be told to shutup and called an idiot.
    im only joking calm down

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Just because his opinion is something you disagree with and even if it was a heat of the moment overreaction.

    You can't tell someone not to have an opinion because you don't like it.

    The man is a human being and has feelings just like you.

    If anything he deserves an explanation as to why you disagree with him. Not just to be told to shutup and called an idiot.
    +1 on reply to NoProps.

    koncept's original post should have also had some backing. The opinions are fine, just back them up with something. Otherwise it is white, negative noise.

  6. #26
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    +1 on reply to NoProps.

    koncept's original post should have also had some backing. The opinions are fine, just back them up with something. Otherwise it is white, negative noise.
    I'll do the honors [sorry about the partial repost] but the Raptors are stuck between a rebuild and win games now mode. This is the pattern of all Toronto teams. As I mentioned a few points before:

    1) Look how OKC built their team. Do you think that any players would have wanted to play there say 5 years ago? Between 2007~2009 they drafted KD 2nd, Russ 4th and Harden 3rd - 3 straight years~ Was there a winning culture during those times? Did they intentionally tank? They didn't have to~

    2) Now let's look at the past champions history & the MVPs since the MJ era:
    Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas
    Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
    Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
    Paul Pierce, Boston
    Tony Parker, San Antonio
    Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat
    Tim Duncan, San Antonio
    Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons
    Tim Duncan, San Antonio
    Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
    Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
    Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
    Tim Duncan, San Antonio
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
    Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Michael Jordan, Chicago

    If you look at the history (except for the Billups' Detroit team that defied logic) all of the teams had a top or couple of top draft picks or bought their way to the final by spending way into the luxury tax for years - more than anyone else eg. Dallas. Forgetting about the over-spenders, you can't tell me that if Kobe went to college he wouldn't have been a top pick. At that time teams were afraid to draft straight out of high school and even Kobe had Shaq for 3 rings and a stacked team for the other two. Also, euro drafting only got better recently. Who wanted to draft a euro player 10 or more years ago? The likes of Dirk, Parker, Gino would have all gone higher if they were drafted with today's scouts.

    3) Going back to the way OKC built. They didn't have a Bargs type player when they were building the team. They drafted kids and told them to live and learn while they lost until more talent came - through the draft! Why are the Raptors trying to win now and rebuild? It's an oxy-moron. It might be too late to do this now but at the beginning of this year we should have gotten rid of Bargs, Calderon, Barbosa etc. I would include Demar too cause I don't have faith in him to lead a team in the future - more suited as a 6th man. We should have been picking up draft picks since the beginning of this year. You say we'll lose fans? Well, they'll come back once you build a team like OKC and they'll come back in droves.

    So my point?
    I have only been advocating tanking because management is doing a very poor job of trying to rebuild. Build through the draft and don't give the young developing guys the tools like a bargs or a jose to bail them out. Make them make their own tools to dig themselves out and get guys like Jamal to teach them. We're half here and half there right now. Typical of Toronto sports management.

    Even if this team is losing, as long as there's talent, excitement and hope for the future then I'll keep watching and rooting them on. Right now I think we're on track to becoming another mediocre team.

    Unless we win the lottery~

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote raptors2012 wrote: View Post
    'll do the honors [sorry about the partial repost] but the Raptors are stuck between a rebuild and win games now mode. This is the pattern of all Toronto teams. As I mentioned a few points before:

    1) Look how OKC built their team. Do you think that any players would have wanted to play there say 5 years ago? Between 2007~2009 they drafted KD 2nd, Russ 4th and Harden 3rd - 3 straight years~ Was there a winning culture during those times? Did they intentionally tank? They didn't have to~
    So the argument is lose, get high draft picks ,and take the best players in the draft (with the benefit of hindsight of course). Nevermind the fact anybody drafted is an unknown and gamble. It seems the same people saying JV has done nothing and proven nothing are the same people saying you need top draft picks to build a winner - who coincidentally have also proven nothing. Do you think Washington drafted Brown with the intention of him being a bust? Do you think Portland drafted Oden with the intention of him becoming eligible for a handicap parking permit by age 22?

    With that said, the Raptors have a prospective franchise centre coming over who many agree with the benefit of hindsight would have been a #2 pick last year and would likely be a #2 pick this year. What happens if JV becomes the all-star C so many are hoping for? Oh I know the argument is, "Yeah, but he won't." What happens if Toronto drafts an all-star at 8, 9, or 10? Oh I know the argument is, "Yeah, but they won't."

    These arguments are all based on glass half empty or half full perspective.

    2) Now let's look at the past champions history & the MVPs since the MJ era:
    Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas
    Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
    Kobe Bryant, Los Angeles
    Paul Pierce, Boston
    Tony Parker, San Antonio
    Dwyane Wade, Miami Heat
    Tim Duncan, San Antonio
    Chauncey Billups, Detroit Pistons
    Tim Duncan, San Antonio
    Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
    Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
    Shaquille O'Neal, Los Angeles
    Tim Duncan, San Antonio
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
    Hakeem Olajuwon, Houston
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Michael Jordan, Chicago
    Michael Jordan, Chicago

    If you look at the history (except for the Billups' Detroit team that defied logic) all of the teams had a top or couple of top draft picks or bought their way to the final by spending way into the luxury tax for years - more than anyone else eg. Dallas. Forgetting about the over-spenders, you can't tell me that if Kobe went to college he wouldn't have been a top pick. At that time teams were afraid to draft straight out of high school and even Kobe had Shaq for 3 rings and a stacked team for the other two. Also, euro drafting only got better recently. Who wanted to draft a euro player 10 or more years ago? The likes of Dirk, Parker, Gino would have all gone higher if they were drafted with today's scouts.
    Yes, let us look at the past champions history and the MVP's since the MJ era:
    Dirk - drafted 9
    Kobe - drafted 13
    PP - drafted 10
    The former Mr. Longoria - drafted 28
    D-Wade - drafted 5th
    Tim Duncan - drafted 1st
    Billups - drafted 3rd (and didn't become Mr. Big Shot for 6 years and 5 teams)
    Shaq - drafted 1st
    MJ - drafted 3rd (and was 7 years in the league before he won)
    Hakeem - drafted 2nd (and arguably only won because Jordan left for 2 years in his prime)

    I'm not seeing a lot of support for tanking and drafting high. Shaq was a phenom much in the same mold as LBJ. Duncan only went to SAS because Robinson was out for a season (read: luck).

    And all the shoulda, would, coulda comments of, "Kobe would have been a top pick had he gone to college" or "the Euros would have gone higher with today's scouts" are unsubstantiated nonsense - no offense. 3 of the top 7 picks in 2002 were foreign with Yao Ming, Tskitishvili, and Nene. Harrison Barnes was a #1 pick out of high school, last year he was a top 3 pick, this year he is looking like a 6-7 pick.


    3) Going back to the way OKC built. They didn't have a Bargs type player when they were building the team. They drafted kids and told them to live and learn while they lost until more talent came - through the draft! Why are the Raptors trying to win now and rebuild? It's an oxy-moron. It might be too late to do this now but at the beginning of this year we should have gotten rid of Bargs, Calderon, Barbosa etc. I would include Demar too cause I don't have faith in him to lead a team in the future - more suited as a 6th man. We should have been picking up draft picks since the beginning of this year. You say we'll lose fans? Well, they'll come back once you build a team like OKC and they'll come back in droves.
    Once again the benefit of hindsight. Clearly you don't remember the doubts people had of skinny Durant when the team went from 31 wins to 20 wins and then just to 23 wins. Clearly you don't remember the surprise of picking Westbrook at #4 and the doubts of whether or not he was capable of running the point in the NBA. Serge Ibaka was not even on the 2009 DraftExpress.com or NBADraft.net mock drafts - not even 2nd round. Things have worked out for them and it is only with hindsight you can say with confidence that those were the right decisions. At the time the decisions were made they were hardly slam dunks (except Harden at #3).

    If there was a cookie-cutter way to build a team, don't you think someone would patent it and sell it to teams? So many factors go in to building a winning team - with luck being a main ingredient - that it is impossible to pick one method and say it will work with any absolute certainty.

    Boston won an NBA championship by cashing out their assets and cap space for proven, all-star veterans. Why shouldn't Toronto go that route?

    Indiana has built a team with staying power by being patient and becoming on the fringe of elite status in the league. Why shouldn't Toronto go that route?

    Chicago had a nice base and hit lottery gold in getting Rose. Maybe Toronto will go that route.

    So my point?
    Toronto is screwed, I got it. My point is there is more than one way to build an NBA team.

    I have only been advocating tanking because management is doing a very poor job of trying to rebuild. Build through the draft and don't give the young developing guys the tools like a bargs or a jose to bail them out. Make them make their own tools to dig themselves out and get guys like Jamal to teach them. We're half here and half there right now. Typical of Toronto sports management.
    Oh, I get it it now. Do the Sacramento (6 years and counting!). Or wait, do the Minnesota (8 years and counting!). Or how about the Clippers (playing in their 2nd playoff series in 15 years!). Even better, lets do the Charlotte (add 2 lottery picks and drop 27 games becoming the worst winning percentage team in history - they are on the right track!).

    Even if this team is losing, as long as there's talent, excitement and hope for the future then I'll keep watching and rooting them on. Right now I think we're on track to becoming another mediocre team.
    It is funny how people's perspective differ because I do see talent, excitement, and hope for the future. I will keep watching and rooting them on because my love of the sport and loyalty as a fan to Toronto ensures it (just like you can't chose who you fall in love with, you can't chose which team you follow - unless you are a gold digger or a band wagon rider). Right now I'm not sure what we are on track to become. Without the benefit of hindsight no one can answer that question.

    Unless we win the lottery~
    Oh, of course! I know Boston fans felt the same way in 1998. Here they drafted Paul Pierce at 10 when they could of had Michaek Olowokandi at #1.



    Here is the situation with Toronto:
    - they laid out a plan that they have followed to a tee
    - they have a great coach
    - they have innovative and creative front office people
    - they have cap space
    - they have cheap players on rookie contracts
    - they have a great prospect at C
    - they have players with trade value
    - they have prospects on cheap rookie deals
    - they have solid role players
    - they have a to be determined lottery pick coming
    - they have the means to continue the rebuild in any number of ways: they have options of OKC rebuild, BOS rebuild, IND rebuild.

    And finally but most importantly:
    - they have options.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 08:09 AM.

  8. #28
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    No. I don't think you got my point.

    About the MVPs, my bad on not being more clear but if you look at those teams (forgetting about the MVPs), they all had very high draft picks - usually top 3 in strong draft years. Parker had Duncan - Kobe had Shaq - Dwade also had Shaq - PP had Ray allen + KG (again, who would have been drafted higher if he went to college and scouts weren't afraid of HS kids). We got screwed with Bargs cause they changed the rule that year to omit HS players (which could have been Durant). We got Bargs in a draft that's fighting with the Kmart draft as one of the worst.

    SAC, MIN, CHA? Who did they draft so high that got them to were they are now? NOBODY! Exactly my point. They did what the Raptors are doing now. Wasn't LAC going nowhere until they got Blake?

    Durant. He and Oden were the consensus 1 and 2 picks. He didn't just come out of nowhere to be this good.

    Why are you even mentioning building like Boston? They're the originators of the 3 superstars converging. How do you think Toronto is going to pull off a build like that? By having three American superstar players wanting to come to play in Toronto? Come on, get real man.

    I listed those champion teams to show that they all built through the draft with several high draft picks (and picks which would have been higher if scouts weren't afraid of HS kids or euro scouting was better). and YES, there's many ways to build a team but recent history shows that there's only one way to win a championship. Unless your goal is to get your foot in the door of the playoffs.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm excited about the fact that we have Val and that's about it. Everyone else can get traded IMO as they are totally over-valued (DD) or they don't fit into a proper rebuilding plan.
    Last edited by raptors2012; Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 09:49 AM.

  9. #29
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    i'm a very bipolar raptors fan. no doubt we've got a better foundation than CHA and other bottom feeders (coaching, mentality, assets) and I'm optimistic of that.

    Aside from all the positive growth from the season, wouldn't you still want the 62 games to result in a better draft position then we've been getting with these last 'lottery' years ? I know drafting is a crapshoot but you gotta think the late march-apr winning runs might've had the raptors miss a curry/rubio/evans/george/hayward/monroe. I don't want a white flag pathetic Charlotte/WAS rebuild, but UTH and CLE seem to be on the right track. I think that this team needs to draft a future quality starter or 1A player not just excellent 6th man of the future. Open to debate if those last 2 aren't doing a better rebuild.
    Last edited by koncept; Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 09:48 AM.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote raptors2012 wrote: View Post
    No. I don't think you got my point.

    About the MVPs, my bad on not being more clear but if you look at those teams (forgetting about the MVPs), they all had very high draft picks - usually top 3 in strong draft years. Parker had Duncan - Kobe had Shaq - Dwade also had Shaq - PP had Ray allen + KG (again, who would have been drafted higher if he went to college and scouts weren't afraid of HS kids). We got screwed with Bargs cause they changed the rule that year to omit HS players (which could have been Durant). We got Bargs in a draft that's fighting with the Kmart draft as one of the worst.

    SAC, MIN, CHA? Who did they draft so high that got them to were they are now? NOBODY! Exactly my point. They did what the Raptors are doing now. Wasn't LAC going nowhere until they got Blake?
    Minnesota has a deep ingrained culture of losing. They were about to bust out of it until Rubio went down - but even that took 8 years and is now hardly a guarantee moving forward. And since when is Kevin Love nobody?

    Sacramento has a deep ingrained culture of losing. They are nowhere near righting the ship despite years of high draft picks.

    The Clippers were still going nowhere until they cashed out their assets (expiring contract in Chris Kaman, prospect in Aminu, first round draft pick from Minnesota, and proven young player in Eric Gordon) for Chris Paul. The Clippers own 32 games last year.

    Do you think Sacramento, Minnesota, and Charlotte have selected players with the intent of them not working out? The draft is a gamble.


    Quote raptors2012 wrote: View Post
    Durant. He and Oden were the consensus 1 and 2 picks. He didn't just come out of nowhere to be this good.
    Clearly you have a short term memory or lack skills to use Google to go back to 2008 and 2009 and look at the things written about Durant at that time.

    Quote raptors2012 wrote: View Post
    Why are you even mentioning building like Boston? They're the originators of the 3 superstars converging. How do you think Toronto is going to pull off a build like that? By having three American superstar players wanting to come to play in Toronto? Come on, get real man.
    Boston had one star player and traded for 2 others. Players can't control where they land in a trade.

    Also, if you read carefully as to what I wrote, Boston was an example of another way to build. You are advocating one way as the only way when it is far from the truth.

    Quote raptors2012 wrote: View Post
    I listed those champion teams to show that they all built through the draft with several high draft picks (and picks which would have been higher if scouts weren't afraid of HS kids or euro scouting was better). and YES, there's many ways to build a team but recent history shows that there's only one way to win a championship. Unless your goal is to get your foot in the door of the playoffs.
    The championship teams used the draft as one piece of the puzzle - not the only piece.

    And for a minute assuming you are correct, which I don't think you are, then you are still looking at just 4 of the 10 players listed who were top 3 draft picks.

    The argument of where they coulda or shoulda been drafted doesn't fly because it didn't happen. Doing such a thing is cherry picking history and adds absolutely zero credibility to the argument.

    Everyone has the answers in hindsight.

    Quote raptors2012 wrote: View Post
    Don't get me wrong. I'm excited about the fact that we have Val and that's about it. Everyone else can get traded IMO as they are totally over-valued (DD) or they don't fit into a proper rebuilding plan.
    Glad you are excited about something.

    But you seem to be forgetting LeBron's problem in Cleveland. Despite him being one of the best talents in the whole league, he couldn't win on his own. Toronto has solid complimentary pieces and role players to go with a great coach.

    And my point is clearly not being understood because there is no proper rebuilding plan. If there was and it was that simple, everybody would be doing it.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote koncept wrote: View Post
    i'm a very bipolar raptors fan. no doubt we've got a better foundation than CHA and other bottom feeders (coaching, mentality, assets) and I'm optimistic of that.
    Overall I am pretty optimistic when looking at the big picture.

    I am a bipolar fan as well when it comes to the individuals on the roster. DeMar is my biggest cognitive disorder. Some days I am so down on him and then other days I just don't know. I think everyone, myself included, forgets he just finished what would have been his senior season in the NBA and is the youngest player on the Raptors (hat tip to BC and Doug Smith for pointing that out yesterday).

    Quote koncept wrote: View Post
    Aside from all the positive growth from the season, wouldn't you still want the 62 games to result in a better draft position then we've been getting with these last 'lottery' years ? I know drafting is a crapshoot but you gotta think the late march-apr winning runs might've had the raptors miss a curry/rubio/evans/george/hayward/monroe. I don't want a white flag pathetic Charlotte/WAS rebuild, but UTH and CLE seem to be on the right track. I think that this team needs to draft a future quality starter or 1A player not just excellent 6th man of the future. Open to debate if those last 2 aren't doing a better rebuild.
    No doubt I'd want the higher probabilities heading in to the draft lottery - no question. But I am happier with the growth seen this year. That comes down to personal preference, I guess. Throwing a bunch of high lottery picks together worked well in OKC but it has failed in many more places.

    I agree that Cleveland and Utah are doing things very well but they are in very different circumstances than Toronto and both teams have received some lottery luck.

    Utah was in the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2009-10. Boozer left, Jefferson was brought in. It failed. Utah saw what happened with Melo and Williams would not sign an extension. They got a lot of young assets and picks to go with a couple of nice pieces they already had (Jefferson and Millsap). Hayward and Burks were picks 9 and 12 the last 2 years selected with their own pick (I don't think Hayward and Burks are better than DeRozan and Davis - probably equal in the grand scheme of things). Favors was a 2010 #3 from Deron Williams deal and Kanter was a #3 from same deal with a pick that 'should' have been #6 except for lottery luck.

    Imagine Cleveland had Kemba Walker and Tristan Thompson instead of Kyrie and Tristan. The Cavs lucked out going from 8 to 1 with the Clippers pick. However, that did not happen so I 100% agree that Cleveland's rebuild thus far appears to be going much better than Toronto's.


    Here is hoping a little luck goes Toronto's way on May 30th. Call me crazy but I think Beal could be very much like a Dwayne Wade. That statement involves me projecting out a little and asking people to remember Wade was a 20 year old freshman at Marquette and Beal was an 18 year old freshman at Florida this year.

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    im only joking calm down
    I don't mean to single you out. Just the one I made an example for, it goes for everyone. Whether you're a rookie, starter, all-star, superstar, legend, mod or admin.

    It's just not cool.

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    Honestly Matt52... that is some specious reasoning. I still think you are missing raptors2012's overall point. Let's just stick with the concept of obtaining a superstar talent. Since you are in a writing mood why don't you actually explain why you are optimistic?

    Where does this team get a superstar???

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    Quote Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
    Honestly Matt52... that is some specious reasoning. I still think you are missing raptors2012's overall point. Let's just stick with the concept of obtaining a superstar talent. Since you are in a writing mood why don't you actually explain why you are optimistic?

    Where does this team get a superstar???
    Maybe my novel was too long and you missed it. I explained why I am optimistic.

    "Where does this team get a superstar????"
    Like every other team with one, you luck in to it. Sorry, no magic answer to that one. There are only 5-6 superstar players in the league and not even all of them have won a championship yet.

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    Matt52... you're right, actually I didn't read everything. YES THERE IS A MAGIC ANSWER. It's called the draft. You are embarrassing yourself with specious arguments. You can bring up Olowokandi all you want. The simple fact is high draft picks change teams fortunes WAY more often than anything else.

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    Quote Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
    Matt52... you're right, actually I didn't read everything. YES THERE IS A MAGIC ANSWER. It's called the draft. You are embarrassing yourself with specious arguments. You can bring up Olowokandi all you want. The simple fact is high draft picks change teams fortunes WAY more often than anything else.
    That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

    The draft can be part of the answer and the draft is about luck. Many more high lottery picks fail than succeed to the level of superstar status.

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    Quote Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
    ... The simple fact is high draft picks change teams fortunes WAY more often than anything else.
    Okay, I'll bite.

    What's a high draft pick? You spit out a number and I bet I can point to more teams not having their fortune changed by drafting there than ones that do (or at least close enough that it makes no difference).

    Or let's not even specify a particular number. Let's talk about a range. How many teams that drafted players in the top five, in the last five years, have had their fortunes changed by those players?

    Here's the last five years
    2007 Port Oden
    Sea Durant
    Atl Horford
    Mem Conley]
    Sea Green

    2008 Chi Rose
    Mia Beasley
    Min Mayo
    Sea Westbrook
    Mem Love

    2009 LAC Griffin
    Griz Thabeet
    OKC Harden
    Kings Evans
    Min Rubio

    2010 Wiz Wall
    76ers Turner
    Nets Favors
    Min Johnson
    Kings Cousins

    2011 Clev Irving
    Min Williams
    Utah Kanter
    Clev Thompson
    TO JV

    How many of those 25 players are fortune changers?

    Out of the 16 teams in this years playoffs, 8 of them haven't drafted in the top five in the last 5 years. Minnesota has drafted in th top five four times. How's that working for them? Chicago once, Miami, once, 76'ers once, Atlanta once.

    So far your claim for a MAGIC ANSWER doesn't seem so MAGIC. I don't need to go on I don't think.

    Drafting can help a team, but coaching and management make the difference.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post

    The draft can be part of the answer and the draft is about luck. Many more high lottery picks fail than succeed to the level of superstar status.
    You write some serious novel sized pages sometimes.

    I agree with you. The draft is a risk. Like I believe Burke said "pittsburgh model my ass!"

    Or in this case

    Oklahoma city model my ass, first off I might be wrong. But, they were still seattle when Durant was drafted, I'm not sure it's the same management that drafted westbrook and harden.

    As I do recall I believe they had made a trade to move up or down to get harden. Plus, Durant wasn't expected to be as good as he is so soon. They also got lucky that those imbisile Trailblazer organization picked in front of them.

    They made a few trades, some free agent signings, Some good/lucky drafting, and woolah.

    It took five years though, at least. It was not entirely through the draft. Perkins was a lucky trade because of an over reaction to losing in the finals.

    To your point Matt, maybe you didn't touch on this. But, they are going to trade the pick if they aren't comfortable with it. Colangelo has to have this team winning with consistency and in the playoffs. In the next, what? 2 or 3 yrs.

    The point is over reaction to every move is not going to make it any better for your anxiety, nor is it going to help with your patience.

  19. #39
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I don't need to go on I don't think.
    You might want to Puffer.

    That's at least five players that have or will (Irving and Wall) change a teams fortune. That is my point. It would be nice to be one of those teams.

    You talk about management... I agree that management is the key to a successful franchise. But we have to realize that this team cannot attract a free agent unless there is already something special happening here. Drafting a superstar is that something special.

    I am curious to see what happens to Indiana next year. They are well managed (mostly) and don't have a super star, and they will have a ton of cap space. Seeing who they are able to land in the FA market should be a harbinger for the Raps.
    Last edited by Gorlitzer; Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 06:42 PM.

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    You write some serious novel sized pages sometimes.
    Sorry. Hopefully it is relevant and somewhat interesting.

    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    I agree with you. The draft is a risk. Like I believe Burke said "pittsburgh model my ass!"

    Or in this case

    Oklahoma city model my ass, first off I might be wrong. But, they were still seattle when Durant was drafted, I'm not sure it's the same management that drafted westbrook and harden.

    As I do recall I believe they had made a trade to move up or down to get harden. Plus, Durant wasn't expected to be as good as he is so soon. They also got lucky that those imbisile Trailblazer organization picked in front of them.

    They made a few trades, some free agent signings, Some good/lucky drafting, and woolah.

    It took five years though, at least. It was not entirely through the draft. Perkins was a lucky trade because of an over reaction to losing in the finals.
    OKC took the same management from Seattle to OKC.

    Harden was not a trade. They finished with 23 wins in Durant's second year and Westbrook's rookie year. They finished fourth worst and had a little luck moving up to 3rd pick.

    As to what they did to get where they are: exactly. They had some luck in the draft moving 5th worst record to 2nd pick to get Durant, 4th worst to 3rd get Harden, and reaching on an unknown in Ibaka at 24. They also went from 2nd worst record to 4th pick to get Westbrook - but still the lottery luck was there in that they got the right player. They swung trades and used cap space and flexibility wisely (taking on Kurt Thomas and 2 first round picks from Phoenix/Sarver was huge).

    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    To your point Matt, maybe you didn't touch on this. But, they are going to trade the pick if they aren't comfortable with it. Colangelo has to have this team winning with consistency and in the playoffs. In the next, what? 2 or 3 yrs.

    The point is over reaction to every move is not going to make it any better for your anxiety, nor is it going to help with your patience.
    I could easily argue that Toronto needs to be in the playoffs next year.

    I'm not sure the 'your' in the last sentence are for me or for people in general. If they are for me then I'm pretty relaxed. Even the infamous OKC (Seattle) plan that so many are going on about saw the Thunder (Sonics) go 5 seasons between playoff appearances - and they started with lucking out and getting the #2 pick to get Durant and trading their best player (Ray Allen) for assets (namely Jeff Green but Wally Szczerbiak and Delonte West were there too).

    Toronto is going to be alright faster than many think but not as fast as many hope.

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