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  • #31
    koncept wrote: View Post
    i'm a very bipolar raptors fan. no doubt we've got a better foundation than CHA and other bottom feeders (coaching, mentality, assets) and I'm optimistic of that.
    Overall I am pretty optimistic when looking at the big picture.

    I am a bipolar fan as well when it comes to the individuals on the roster. DeMar is my biggest cognitive disorder. Some days I am so down on him and then other days I just don't know. I think everyone, myself included, forgets he just finished what would have been his senior season in the NBA and is the youngest player on the Raptors (hat tip to BC and Doug Smith for pointing that out yesterday).

    koncept wrote: View Post
    Aside from all the positive growth from the season, wouldn't you still want the 62 games to result in a better draft position then we've been getting with these last 'lottery' years ? I know drafting is a crapshoot but you gotta think the late march-apr winning runs might've had the raptors miss a curry/rubio/evans/george/hayward/monroe. I don't want a white flag pathetic Charlotte/WAS rebuild, but UTH and CLE seem to be on the right track. I think that this team needs to draft a future quality starter or 1A player not just excellent 6th man of the future. Open to debate if those last 2 aren't doing a better rebuild.
    No doubt I'd want the higher probabilities heading in to the draft lottery - no question. But I am happier with the growth seen this year. That comes down to personal preference, I guess. Throwing a bunch of high lottery picks together worked well in OKC but it has failed in many more places.

    I agree that Cleveland and Utah are doing things very well but they are in very different circumstances than Toronto and both teams have received some lottery luck.

    Utah was in the 2nd round of the playoffs in 2009-10. Boozer left, Jefferson was brought in. It failed. Utah saw what happened with Melo and Williams would not sign an extension. They got a lot of young assets and picks to go with a couple of nice pieces they already had (Jefferson and Millsap). Hayward and Burks were picks 9 and 12 the last 2 years selected with their own pick (I don't think Hayward and Burks are better than DeRozan and Davis - probably equal in the grand scheme of things). Favors was a 2010 #3 from Deron Williams deal and Kanter was a #3 from same deal with a pick that 'should' have been #6 except for lottery luck.

    Imagine Cleveland had Kemba Walker and Tristan Thompson instead of Kyrie and Tristan. The Cavs lucked out going from 8 to 1 with the Clippers pick. However, that did not happen so I 100% agree that Cleveland's rebuild thus far appears to be going much better than Toronto's.


    Here is hoping a little luck goes Toronto's way on May 30th. Call me crazy but I think Beal could be very much like a Dwayne Wade. That statement involves me projecting out a little and asking people to remember Wade was a 20 year old freshman at Marquette and Beal was an 18 year old freshman at Florida this year.

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    • #32
      NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
      im only joking calm down
      I don't mean to single you out. Just the one I made an example for, it goes for everyone. Whether you're a rookie, starter, all-star, superstar, legend, mod or admin.

      It's just not cool.
      If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

      Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

      Comment


      • #33
        Honestly Matt52... that is some specious reasoning. I still think you are missing raptors2012's overall point. Let's just stick with the concept of obtaining a superstar talent. Since you are in a writing mood why don't you actually explain why you are optimistic?

        Where does this team get a superstar???

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        • #34
          Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
          Honestly Matt52... that is some specious reasoning. I still think you are missing raptors2012's overall point. Let's just stick with the concept of obtaining a superstar talent. Since you are in a writing mood why don't you actually explain why you are optimistic?

          Where does this team get a superstar???
          Maybe my novel was too long and you missed it. I explained why I am optimistic.

          "Where does this team get a superstar????"
          Like every other team with one, you luck in to it. Sorry, no magic answer to that one. There are only 5-6 superstar players in the league and not even all of them have won a championship yet.

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          • #35
            Matt52... you're right, actually I didn't read everything. YES THERE IS A MAGIC ANSWER. It's called the draft. You are embarrassing yourself with specious arguments. You can bring up Olowokandi all you want. The simple fact is high draft picks change teams fortunes WAY more often than anything else.

            Comment


            • #36
              Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
              Matt52... you're right, actually I didn't read everything. YES THERE IS A MAGIC ANSWER. It's called the draft. You are embarrassing yourself with specious arguments. You can bring up Olowokandi all you want. The simple fact is high draft picks change teams fortunes WAY more often than anything else.
              That is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

              The draft can be part of the answer and the draft is about luck. Many more high lottery picks fail than succeed to the level of superstar status.

              Comment


              • #37
                Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
                ... The simple fact is high draft picks change teams fortunes WAY more often than anything else.
                Okay, I'll bite.

                What's a high draft pick? You spit out a number and I bet I can point to more teams not having their fortune changed by drafting there than ones that do (or at least close enough that it makes no difference).

                Or let's not even specify a particular number. Let's talk about a range. How many teams that drafted players in the top five, in the last five years, have had their fortunes changed by those players?

                Here's the last five years
                2007 Port Oden
                Sea Durant
                Atl Horford
                Mem Conley]
                Sea Green

                2008 Chi Rose
                Mia Beasley
                Min Mayo
                Sea Westbrook
                Mem Love

                2009 LAC Griffin
                Griz Thabeet
                OKC Harden
                Kings Evans
                Min Rubio

                2010 Wiz Wall
                76ers Turner
                Nets Favors
                Min Johnson
                Kings Cousins

                2011 Clev Irving
                Min Williams
                Utah Kanter
                Clev Thompson
                TO JV

                How many of those 25 players are fortune changers?

                Out of the 16 teams in this years playoffs, 8 of them haven't drafted in the top five in the last 5 years. Minnesota has drafted in th top five four times. How's that working for them? Chicago once, Miami, once, 76'ers once, Atlanta once.

                So far your claim for a MAGIC ANSWER doesn't seem so MAGIC. I don't need to go on I don't think.

                Drafting can help a team, but coaching and management make the difference.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post

                  The draft can be part of the answer and the draft is about luck. Many more high lottery picks fail than succeed to the level of superstar status.
                  You write some serious novel sized pages sometimes.

                  I agree with you. The draft is a risk. Like I believe Burke said "pittsburgh model my ass!"

                  Or in this case

                  Oklahoma city model my ass, first off I might be wrong. But, they were still seattle when Durant was drafted, I'm not sure it's the same management that drafted westbrook and harden.

                  As I do recall I believe they had made a trade to move up or down to get harden. Plus, Durant wasn't expected to be as good as he is so soon. They also got lucky that those imbisile Trailblazer organization picked in front of them.

                  They made a few trades, some free agent signings, Some good/lucky drafting, and woolah.

                  It took five years though, at least. It was not entirely through the draft. Perkins was a lucky trade because of an over reaction to losing in the finals.

                  To your point Matt, maybe you didn't touch on this. But, they are going to trade the pick if they aren't comfortable with it. Colangelo has to have this team winning with consistency and in the playoffs. In the next, what? 2 or 3 yrs.

                  The point is over reaction to every move is not going to make it any better for your anxiety, nor is it going to help with your patience.
                  If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                  Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Puffer wrote: View Post
                    I don't need to go on I don't think.
                    You might want to Puffer.

                    That's at least five players that have or will (Irving and Wall) change a teams fortune. That is my point. It would be nice to be one of those teams.

                    You talk about management... I agree that management is the key to a successful franchise. But we have to realize that this team cannot attract a free agent unless there is already something special happening here. Drafting a superstar is that something special.

                    I am curious to see what happens to Indiana next year. They are well managed (mostly) and don't have a super star, and they will have a ton of cap space. Seeing who they are able to land in the FA market should be a harbinger for the Raps.
                    Last edited by Gorlitzer; Sat Apr 28, 2012, 06:42 PM.

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                    • #40
                      LBF wrote: View Post
                      You write some serious novel sized pages sometimes.
                      Sorry. Hopefully it is relevant and somewhat interesting.

                      LBF wrote: View Post
                      I agree with you. The draft is a risk. Like I believe Burke said "pittsburgh model my ass!"

                      Or in this case

                      Oklahoma city model my ass, first off I might be wrong. But, they were still seattle when Durant was drafted, I'm not sure it's the same management that drafted westbrook and harden.

                      As I do recall I believe they had made a trade to move up or down to get harden. Plus, Durant wasn't expected to be as good as he is so soon. They also got lucky that those imbisile Trailblazer organization picked in front of them.

                      They made a few trades, some free agent signings, Some good/lucky drafting, and woolah.

                      It took five years though, at least. It was not entirely through the draft. Perkins was a lucky trade because of an over reaction to losing in the finals.
                      OKC took the same management from Seattle to OKC.

                      Harden was not a trade. They finished with 23 wins in Durant's second year and Westbrook's rookie year. They finished fourth worst and had a little luck moving up to 3rd pick.

                      As to what they did to get where they are: exactly. They had some luck in the draft moving 5th worst record to 2nd pick to get Durant, 4th worst to 3rd get Harden, and reaching on an unknown in Ibaka at 24. They also went from 2nd worst record to 4th pick to get Westbrook - but still the lottery luck was there in that they got the right player. They swung trades and used cap space and flexibility wisely (taking on Kurt Thomas and 2 first round picks from Phoenix/Sarver was huge).

                      LBF wrote: View Post
                      To your point Matt, maybe you didn't touch on this. But, they are going to trade the pick if they aren't comfortable with it. Colangelo has to have this team winning with consistency and in the playoffs. In the next, what? 2 or 3 yrs.

                      The point is over reaction to every move is not going to make it any better for your anxiety, nor is it going to help with your patience.
                      I could easily argue that Toronto needs to be in the playoffs next year.

                      I'm not sure the 'your' in the last sentence are for me or for people in general. If they are for me then I'm pretty relaxed. Even the infamous OKC (Seattle) plan that so many are going on about saw the Thunder (Sonics) go 5 seasons between playoff appearances - and they started with lucking out and getting the #2 pick to get Durant and trading their best player (Ray Allen) for assets (namely Jeff Green but Wally Szczerbiak and Delonte West were there too).

                      Toronto is going to be alright faster than many think but not as fast as many hope.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
                        You might want to Puffer.

                        That's at least five players that have or will (Irving and Wall) change a teams fortune. That is my point. It would be nice to be one of those teams.
                        Wall and Irving are still unknowns.

                        Washington finsihed tied for 4th worst the year they got Wall and got lucky in the draft. However, since drafting Wall the year they had 26 wins, they won 23 games and this year 20 games (albeit in a short season but still 4th worst and a lower winning percentage than the year he was drafted). This ties in to a big part of my argument that more is needed than high draft picks - do they help? Hell yes. Are they the be all and end all? Nope. You can still get special players anywhere in the draft but there is no argument that the higher the pick the more probability due to larger selection.

                        I have no argument with Irving. He is going to be special if he is not injured. But more than Irving, Cleveland has a good coach and good ownership..... oh yeah, and they got lucky going from 8 to 1 with the Clippers pick. They won 2 more games this year in 16 less games and were knocking on the playoff door until injuries set in.

                        Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
                        You talk about management... I agree that management is the key to a successful franchise. But we have to realize that this team cannot attract a free agent unless there is already something special happening here. Drafting a superstar is that something special.

                        I am curious to see what happens to Indiana next year. They are well managed (mostly) and don't have a super star, and they will have a ton of cap space. Seeing who they are able to land in the FA market should be a harbinger for the Raps.
                        That something special requires luck.

                        My issue here is not debating the merits of the draft. No doubt the best way to get a superstar is through the draft. Anyone arguing that is ridiculously delusional. My issue is the draft requires a great deal of luck in terms of draft positioning and all the intangibles like teammates, coach, situation, attitude, and work ethic that it takes to make a talented player great.
                        Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Apr 28, 2012, 07:36 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Gotcha. That is a fair argument for sure. I just wonder where the real talent is going to come from to make the Raps better if not the draft.

                          Also... (non-sequitur time) am I the only one that wants to see Nash end up on the Pacers?

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                          • #43
                            Thank you peeps for emphasizing my point that we need a superstar.

                            Yes Matt we do need other pieces but look at Chicago. They have amazing pieces, a winning culture, deep bench, a great coach but how many of you think they're going to win it all now that Rose is out with a torn ACL. This is exactly my point!

                            We have good pieces? As Arsenalist mentions so beautifully in his piece "It all fell in line with the plan", BC is hoping that mediocre talent becomes above average talent. The key words is "hoping" and "mediocre". Are these your key pieces that you mention we need to win a championship?

                            So how are we going to get that superstar? Buy him? Nope, why would they choose TO when they're going to get max where ever they go. Trade for him? Who's going to trade us their superstar? Hope that as we're in the mid range of the win/loss column and some how we luck out in the lottery? I guess that our only chance the way we're going. Sigh~

                            Prove me wrong Chicago... so I can have a glimmer of hope that we too can win the championship if the stars align perfectly.
                            Last edited by raptors2012; Sat Apr 28, 2012, 08:43 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              raptors2012 wrote: View Post
                              Thank you peeps for emphasizing my point that we need a superstar.

                              Yes Matt we do need other pieces but look at Chicago. They have amazing pieces, a winning culture, deep bench, a great coach but how many of you think they're going to win it all now that Rose is out with a torn ACL. This is exactly my point!

                              We have good pieces? As Arsenalist mentions so beautifully in his piece "It all fell in line with the plan", BC is hoping that mediocre talent becomes above average talent. The key words is "hoping" and "mediocre". Are these your key pieces that you mention we need to win a championship?

                              So how are we going to get that superstar? Buy him? Nope, why would they choose TO when they're going to get max where ever they go. Trade for him? Who's going to trade us their superstar? Hope that as we're in the mid range of the win/loss column and some how we luck out in the lottery? I guess that our only chance the way we're going. Sigh~

                              Prove me wrong Chicago... so I can have a glimmer of hope that we too can win the championship if the stars align perfectly.
                              Am I the only one thinking JV could (not necessarily will but clearly could) be that superstar ?

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                              • #45
                                Fanchie wrote: View Post
                                Am I the only one thinking JV could (not necessarily will but clearly could) be that superstar ?
                                Yes you are haha.. sorry

                                As much of a dominant big man you are you always need a go to clutch scorer. Even Shaq needed the likes of a Kobe or Wade. And as much as we compare Jonas to Duncan, hoping Jonas is as good as Duncan is really wishful thinking and even still, Duncan had the Admiral and then Parker and Gino.

                                Now SA is team that built properly with a bit of luck (Duncan) and great drafting. From my knowledge they didnt even go into the luxury tax during their championship years.
                                Last edited by raptors2012; Sat Apr 28, 2012, 09:23 PM.

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