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Thread: Mimicking a Champion

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    Default Mimicking a Champion

    Chisholm's recent evaluation of Colangelo's work this year suggested that Colangelo should follow the plan that Indiana has used to earn them the spot they hold going into this year's playoffs. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this philosophy; however, I beleive we already know which team Colangelo is trying to mimic and for sure we know which team Dwayne Casey is trying to copy... the Dallas Mavericks. As a coach, I realize that you need to adjust to the personnel you have; however, when you win a championship (as Casey did) it is hard not to want that type of team again. In fact, Colangelo sold Casey on the Raptor's coaching job by saying the Raps had a similar type of roster to Dallas (slow-footed PG, a scoring big and an offensively minded team that needs to be taught defense).

    With this in mind, can we predict what type of players will be targeted and who will still be around for next year's "play-off" team?

    2010-2011 Dallas Mavericks--------------2012-2013 Toronto Raptors?
    (in order of playoff playing time)
    Dirk Nowitzki---------------------------------Andrea Bargnani
    Jason Kidd-----------------------------------Jose Calderon (Steve Nash?)
    Shawn Marion--------------------------------James Johnson (Andrei Kirilenko?)
    Jason Terry----------------------------------Jerryd Bayless (Demar off the bench?)
    Tyson Chandler------------------------------Jonas Valanciunas
    Jose Barea-----------------------------------draft? (Lillard/Marshall?)
    Peja Stojakovic------------------------------Linas Kleiza
    Deshawn Stevenson--------------------------Alan Anderson? draft?
    Brendan Haywood----------------------------Aaron Gray
    Cardinal (played less than 40 minutes total)---- does it matter?
    Mahinmi (played less than 40 minutes total)----
    Brewer (played less than 40 minutes total)-----

    Although I realize that the 2010/11 Maverick's were looking at playoff success as their benchmark and we are only looking to make the playoffs, I think some of the comparisons work. Things to notice from my initial stab at it:
    - None of the orginal Young Onez are left
    - Dallas' starting wing's were about defence
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    Bargs is an offensive weapon, but he is hot and cold. Dirk is pretty reliable on any given night so the offensive load will have to be shared to a greater degree. Obviously there are similarities between what we have now, what we're bringing in and the Championship Mavs, but at this stage the similarities are mostly passing resemblances and the raps will have to come up with their own model for success.

    Factoring in especially that our bench is deeper especially around the bigs - Amir and Ed plus some serviceable parts in Grey which means Bargs should get more rest time and hopefully make him better in limited minutes. I see JJ more as Deshawn than Marion. His jumper isnt ugly enough and his offense is around the same meh (although I think Stevenson was far superior as a spot up 3 point shooter).

    If we could throw a bazillion dollars at Deron Williams, Id love that. He's kinda like Kidd (younger Kidd) with his toughness and rebounding and I know BC will at least try to get him (every GM will and if they arent then they arent doing their jobs). If by some miracle we do get him, then SF is still the biggest hole and we are trying to find a Marion. At 4th, we had a chance at either Barnes or MKG but barring major luck, the player we should target is... PJ3!! Yes, it's time to gamble on an athletic freak... again. I believe Casey can turn him at least into a defensive stopper with his height and length and quickness (at the 3!!) and who knows, he might even develop a consistent offensive game.
    Last edited by Darien; Sat Apr 28th, 2012 at 09:09 PM.

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    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha

    enjoyed this thread immensely, since it proves my point about delusional fans that I made in another thread.

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    I can see the comparison. I've always thought we've needed a chandler (jonas) type center to compliment bargnani

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    enjoyed this thread immensely, since it proves my point about delusional fans that I made in another thread.
    Well if you're just going to keep calling people names, then I don't think I want to be your friend.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Well if you're just going to keep calling people names, then I don't think I want to be your friend.
    that was the last one, k. I'll go back to making good points, relieving a little bit of frustration at the other thread, b/c I know if I responded over there it would've started a flame war. Which is a bloody waste of time.

    it's ok if you don't wanna be my friend though, that's your choice.

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahaha

    enjoyed this thread immensely, since it proves my point about delusional fans that I made in another thread.
    So you don't think any of the Raps pieces resemble any of the Mavericks?
    Be aware that some of the big names were comparisons made from the GM and echoed by the coach. I am using this comparison as a means to find out what kind of pieces Colangelo may be looking at and Casey asking for... or what pieces may be used to bring other players in.
    As well, it is important to note that I was comparing a team that won a championship to a team that wants to make the playoffs next year (that is a massive difference in goal setting and should indicate to you that this "fool" sees an obvious gap between the Raps skill level and that Mavericks team).
    Is this the "type" of team that Casey wants and, if so, are they comparable? Apparently you think not.
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    Quote The Coach wrote: View Post
    So you don't think any of the Raps pieces resemble any of the Mavericks?
    Be aware that some of the big names were comparisons made from the GM and echoed by the coach. I am using this comparison as a means to find out what kind of pieces Colangelo may be looking at and Casey asking for... or what pieces may be used to bring other players in.
    As well, it is important to note that I was comparing a team that won a championship to a team that wants to make the playoffs next year (that is a massive difference in goal setting and should indicate to you that this "fool" sees an obvious gap between the Raps skill level and that Mavericks team).
    Is this the "type" of team that Casey wants and, if so, are they comparable? Apparently you think not.
    thanks for not spazzing out after my immature response, but in short no.

    when bargnani was efficient and driving to the basket (think first 13 games, and maybe a 1 or 2 after he came back from injury), and playing passable defense he reminded me of dirk. But for the most part I saw his defense regress back to where it was last year, and he seemed to lose the ability to get around defenders, and when this happened we saw bargnani shooting more low percentage jump shots, and less driving to the basket. While some might argue that this was due to injury, I am not at all confident that he has the fitness to last a full 82 game season playing ball like he was at the beginning of the season. He definitely could, and if he did I would be all for considering him a core piece moving forward.

    I love jose calderon, love the way he runs the offense, and I realize this is the nba, guards will get beat, players are very talented, I still think we can win a championship with calderon manning the point, and have no qualms about the point guard position.

    james johnson has athleticism working for him, but I still think he is too inconsistent too compare to marion.

    I think jason terry is a more talented/polished scorer than bayless.

    How can you compare tyson chandler to jonas valanciunas when he hasn't even played a minute of nba ball? Im not sure valanciunas can adjust right away to the pace of the nba game, and I don't think he will be the defensive presence tyson is without 2-3 years in the league. Another thing about jonas, is he seems to move rather slowly and methodically in the post for my liking, not sure those types of buckets translate to points in nba ball. (so in that sense he is like chandler, b/c jonas could very well be as inneffective in the post as chandler is, I think it's possible)

    another thing I think you are forgetting is the raptors don't have the luxury of having a billionaire owner who threw money at the problem year after year since 2000 and keep signing aging veterans, before finally winning a championship in 2012. (this is a little decieving b/c they came very damn close in 06, but I belieive my point still stands, since they had the highest payroll in the league when they won last year)

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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    thanks for not spazzing out after my immature response, but in short no.

    when bargnani was efficient and driving to the basket (think first 13 games, and maybe a 1 or 2 after he came back from injury), and playing passable defense he reminded me of dirk. But for the most part I saw his defense regress back to where it was last year, and he seemed to lose the ability to get around defenders, and when this happened we saw bargnani shooting more low percentage jump shots, and less driving to the basket. While some might argue that this was due to injury, I am not at all confident that he has the fitness to last a full 82 game season playing ball like he was at the beginning of the season. He definitely could, and if he did I would be all for considering him a core piece moving forward.

    I love jose calderon, love the way he runs the offense, and I realize this is the nba, guards will get beat, players are very talented, I still think we can win a championship with calderon manning the point, and have no qualms about the point guard position.

    james johnson has athleticism working for him, but I still think he is too inconsistent too compare to marion.

    I think jason terry is a more talented/polished scorer than bayless.

    How can you compare tyson chandler to jonas valanciunas when he hasn't even played a minute of nba ball? Im not sure valanciunas can adjust right away to the pace of the nba game, and I don't think he will be the defensive presence tyson is without 2-3 years in the league. Another thing about jonas, is he seems to move rather slowly and methodically in the post for my liking, not sure those types of buckets translate to points in nba ball. (so in that sense he is like chandler, b/c jonas could very well be as inneffective in the post as chandler is, I think it's possible)

    another thing I think you are forgetting is the raptors don't have the luxury of having a billionaire owner who threw money at the problem year after year since 2000 and keep signing aging veterans, before finally winning a championship in 2012. (this is a little decieving b/c they came very damn close in 06, but I belieive my point still stands, since they had the highest payroll in the league when they won last year)
    I appreciate the much more comprehensive reply and seeing the reasons for your disagreement (although I am not sure we are as far apart on our belief in this team as it may seem). I don't pretend to think the Raps are at the Mav's level, but am purely speculating that they may be trying to emulate that team's make up. You are absolutely correct in saying that they have consistently brought in veteran, quality talent and have been willing to go over the cap to obtain a far superior squad to the current Raptor one (although it does sound like Colangelo is looking to go after some of these types of players this summer).

    As for the Valanciunas and Chandler comparison, it comes from a comment that Casey made (not sure when, so no video evidence). I am assuming that Casey, like me, was not saying that Valanciunas is currently as good as a "defensive player of the year" candidate but has the same kind of make-up and skill set. I actually think Valanciunas will be more like Noah. These types of comparisons (comparing draft eligible players who haven't played a minute of NBA ball to current or past NBA stars) are done all the time on any draft site or by many nba analysts. I believe you even made some comparisons in your post between the two aforementioned players before Valanciunas has even played one minute of NBA ball. If you're not into comparisons that is fine, but Casey and I are not the first to do it. If you are okay with making comparisons, I would be interested in hearing who you think he should be compared too?
    Last edited by The Coach; Sun Apr 29th, 2012 at 01:38 AM.
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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    when bargnani was efficient and driving to the basket (think first 13 games, and maybe a 1 or 2 after he came back from injury), and playing passable defense he reminded me of dirk. But for the most part I saw his defense regress back to where it was last year, and he seemed to lose the ability to get around defenders, and when this happened we saw bargnani shooting more low percentage jump shots, and less driving to the basket. While some might argue that this was due to injury, I am not at all confident that he has the fitness to last a full 82 game season playing ball like he was at the beginning of the season. He definitely could, and if he did I would be all for considering him a core piece moving forward.
    I'm going to chalk most of that up to a very tight Calf muscle. Can't do much if you don't have those badboys working at 100%.
    But for the most part, I'll agree with this.

    I love jose calderon, love the way he runs the offense, and I realize this is the nba, guards will get beat, players are very talented, I still think we can win a championship with calderon manning the point, and have no qualms about the point guard position.
    Again, I'll agree with this as well.

    james johnson has athleticism working for him, but I still think he is too inconsistent too compare to marion.
    I think JJ proved he can be a very consistent defensive presence this year.
    And with his evolving Offensive game, and growing confidence, I wouldn't be surprised to see him put up 14pts, 7rpg, 1.5 spg and 1.5bpg. And funny enough, those are better than what Marion put up last year for Dallas in the Playoffs.

    I think jason terry is a more talented/polished scorer than bayless.
    Give Bayless another season to figure out his game, and they'll be right on the same page.

    How can you compare tyson chandler to jonas valanciunas when he hasn't even played a minute of nba ball? Im not sure valanciunas can adjust right away to the pace of the nba game, and I don't think he will be the defensive presence tyson is without 2-3 years in the league. Another thing about jonas, is he seems to move rather slowly and methodically in the post for my liking, not sure those types of buckets translate to points in nba ball. (so in that sense he is like chandler, b/c jonas could very well be as inneffective in the post as chandler is, I think it's possible)
    We'll see.

    another thing I think you are forgetting is the raptors don't have the luxury of having a billionaire owner who threw money at the problem year after year since 2000 and keep signing aging veterans, before finally winning a championship in 2011
    With annual Revenues north of $30 Billion, the Rogers/Bell partnership gives the Raptors some of the deepest pockets in the League.

    There's 'Rich'. There's 'Wealthy'. And there's 'Running an Entire Countries Infrastructure for Profit'.

    I'm not worried about Money. When the time comes, MLSE will spend the required coin.
    Just because they're going out and spending recklessly like Cuban did in the 2000's, doesn't mean they're not willing to improve this team when it is appropriate.


    All-in-all, good post. Happy you decided to do more than just laugh at people.
    Last edited by Joey; Sun Apr 29th, 2012 at 12:46 PM.
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    Default "8 rules for being a contender"

    Here is an interesting blog describing in pretty good detail what this blogger believes it takes to be a contender. Here are the 8 rules:

    1. Know Your Identity
    2. Know your roles
    3. Have a pecking order/closer
    4. Rebound the ball!
    5. Designate an enforcer
    6. Win on the road
    7. Pace yourself
    8. Don’t be located in a non-destination city (the exceptions being Oklahoma City & San Antonio)

    For more explanation here is the link: http://swishscout.com/?p=8517

    I would give the Raps a 3/8 this season (1,2,4).
    Where do you guys put them?
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    great article and good looking site.

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    Quote The Coach wrote: View Post
    Here is an interesting blog describing in pretty good detail what this blogger believes it takes to be a contender. Here are the 8 rules:

    1. Know Your Identity
    2. Know your roles
    3. Have a pecking order/closer
    4. Rebound the ball!
    5. Designate an enforcer
    6. Win on the road
    7. Pace yourself
    8. Don’t be located in a non-destination city (the exceptions being Oklahoma City & San Antonio)

    For more explanation here is the link: http://swishscout.com/?p=8517

    I would give the Raps a 3/8 this season (1,2,4).
    Where do you guys put them?
    This is why I think the Raptors are actually on the right path to achieve some success.

    I hope Val turns out to be that kind of enforcer. I'm really hoping that if nothing else works for him, he would be a solid defensive presence inside.

    Sadly, they don't have a closer, although Bargnani was designated this role last year. He did alright on it (Denver game, Phoenix) but overall, he's still not consistent at it. Ideally, I would love for someone else to step up into this role (a wing who can play the pick n roll -- the team should not be limited to Jose running the pick n roll for 20 secs only to give it to Kleiza to chuck a shot)

    The Raps showed improvement on the road. I think that they are mentally tough and I did not see a whole lot of blow outs (with exception to the first part of the season when Bargs went down & we seemingly had to rely on Rasual Butler lol)

    Pace is something they would have to get better at. It seemed like the Raps did not even bother to push it up the court after defensive stops -- you need fastbreak points to help ease things out.

    I would change point #8 (I think it's overblown -- people will want to come when they see a winning foundation) to:
    - have a deep bench/solid role players who fit in with the system & hit timely shots.

    Overall, I would give them a 3.5 out of 8, with potential to move up given experience and some roster changes.
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    This is why I think the Raptors are actually on the right path to achieve some success.

    I hope Val turns out to be that kind of enforcer. I'm really hoping that if nothing else works for him, he would be a solid defensive presence inside.

    Sadly, they don't have a closer, although Bargnani was designated this role last year. He did alright on it (Denver game, Phoenix) but overall, he's still not consistent at it. Ideally, I would love for someone else to step up into this role (a wing who can play the pick n roll -- the team should not be limited to Jose running the pick n roll for 20 secs only to give it to Kleiza to chuck a shot)

    The Raps showed improvement on the road. I think that they are mentally tough and I did not see a whole lot of blow outs (with exception to the first part of the season when Bargs went down & we seemingly had to rely on Rasual Butler lol)

    Pace is something they would have to get better at. It seemed like the Raps did not even bother to push it up the court after defensive stops -- you need fastbreak points to help ease things out.

    I would change point #8 (I think it's overblown -- people will want to come when they see a winning foundation) to:
    - have a deep bench/solid role players who fit in with the system & hit timely shots.

    Overall, I would give them a 3.5 out of 8, with potential to move up given experience and some roster changes.
    Fair assessment and I am encouraged with the direction as well. I think the 8th point isn't supposed to be taken to seriously. Is Boston a destination place?

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    To be a champion...you need 3 all-star callibre talents.. Toronto has two borderline all-star talents. And could only just make the playoffs with one all-star talent.
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    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    How can you compare tyson chandler to jonas valanciunas when he hasn't even played a minute of nba ball? Im not sure valanciunas can adjust right away to the pace of the nba game, and I don't think he will be the defensive presence tyson is without 2-3 years in the league. Another thing about jonas, is he seems to move rather slowly and methodically in the post for my liking, not sure those types of buckets translate to points in nba ball. (so in that sense he is like chandler, b/c jonas could very well be as inneffective in the post as chandler is, I think it's possible)
    for this it is important to remember how much chandler didn't do in his early career. he has only become an impact player the past 2-3 seasons as he matured.

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    Quote Raptorsss wrote: View Post
    To be a champion...you need 3 all-star callibre talents.. Toronto has two borderline all-star talents. And could only just make the playoffs with one all-star talent.
    Hawks got 3 all star calibre talents and look at them. Getting beaten up by the old man Celtics

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    i think its maybe flaws in larry drews coaching that lost them that series. He never seems to intense when he's coaching, like dwane casey getting up and screaming his ass off like were in the playoffs. But thats just my opinion

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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    Hawks got 3 all star calibre talents and look at them. Getting beaten up by the old man Celtics
    Maybe we need to re-phrase. To be a champion, you need 3 all-star calibre talents, and one of them needs to be an "elite" player. The Hawks don't have an elite player.
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