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Thread: Can you win a championship with Bargnani?

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Default Can you win a championship with Bargnani?

    Feel free to move to the Bargnani oblivion thread, but i thought it was worth making a thread for.

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/raptors-a-...-with-bargnani

    article from hoopsworld, but i want to take it a step further. i think the raps can make the playoffs with Bargs, certainly, but what about a championship? I'm sure people will point to Dirk, and the strong supporting cast he needed to win it all, but Dirk's a superstar. Bargs hasn't even made a allstar game in the weak east. I'm not saying there's absolutely no way the raptors win with him, but when i really pause to think about it i don't know...

    Discuss.
    @jerboat

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    Can we win with Bargs as our number one option? No.
    Can we win with him on the team? Yes.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    agree with hello to an extent. i would say best player instead of #1 option. he should always be option one on offense because he has the best chance at scoring every time he touches the ball. but if he is our best player then our supporting cast is much to weak to win 4 playoff rounds. one maybe 2 with a couple guys stepping up big but not the whole way.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Sig's Avatar
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    As a second or third scoring option (maybe first), but definitely not the leader role.

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    Default Tired of all the Barg Bashing

    Can you win a Championship of course does he have to be the best player probably not.

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    No, we must rid of ourselves of "Bargnani" before we can even begin to enchant this championship you speak of. For as long as we remain under its spell, we are but a mere pebble hopelessly trying to ascend the mountains of success.

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    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Default Perfectly said

    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    agree with hello to an extent. i would say best player instead of #1 option. he should always be option one on offense because he has the best chance at scoring every time he touches the ball. but if he is our best player then our supporting cast is much to weak to win 4 playoff rounds. one maybe 2 with a couple guys stepping up big but not the whole way.
    Raptors can be a winning Contender with Bargnani as the 1st option. A Superstar player (or Franchise guy), does not have to be the top Scorer. People correlate this relationship all the time, as being the only option to winning a Championship. Reality is, there are only a few guys like Lebron, Durant, Rose, Wade and Kobe.

    Once we resign ourselves to the fact those guys ain`t coming to Canada, then we need to look at a Canadian flavoured_ approach to winning it all.
    .

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    The last time someone won without a superstar (at the time) were the Detroit Pistons who were all about defense and team play. Team play ok. Defense..... erm... I'm not saying he's gotta be blocking 3 shots a game or anything, but every starter has to be pulling their weight across the board (unless you got a Love or Rodman or whatever) and that includes picking up rebounds. Based on what we've seen from bargs, he doesnt fit that picture. Offensive threat off the bench maybe, but as a main contributing piece - probably not.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Darien wrote: View Post
    Based on what we've seen from bargs, he doesnt fit that picture. Offensive threat off the bench maybe, but as a main contributing piece - probably not.
    two things here for me

    based on what you've seen so far. please don't include me in that because i have a much different opinion. i think that defense is a team based function and even though he hasn't been the best defensive player so far i think the team defense has improved and will continue to improve, even when bargs is on the court. and secondly offense threat off the bench, and then the balls to add in a "maybe" cuts bargs' so short it's silly.

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    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Yes. The Raptors definitely can. Is it likely? Probably not.

    Unless, the Raps can organize a team with:
    - great defense (starting from inside to the perimeter)
    - pride themselves in execution
    - bench that is more than servicable
    - players to hit timely shots
    - && #1 option, which has yet to be filled
    then: experience playing together in playoff situations
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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    I think it's really unfair to ask "can you win a championship with Bargnani?" because the truth is that it's REALLY REALLY REALLY hard to win a championship no matter whose on your team. I know there's a good chance that the Heat will win it all this year, but just look at Lebron and Howard.

    Lebron is arguably the best player in the entire league for what, 4-5 seasons (and possibly this generation)? and Howard is the most dominate center in the league and neither has a ring. Once you get to the conference finals it's pretty tough sledding and has more do with timing/luck and mental focus than talent (because, both teams need a lot of talent to get to that point).

    However, I think that it is fair to ask whether we can get into the conference finals or NBA finals with Bargs? (Things that most truly elite players seem to be able to do at least a couple of times in their careers).

    The short answer is no.

    The long answer is hopefully.

    In order to get to the conference finals/finals Bargs would have to play as well, if not better than he has this past year CONSISTENTLY, plus he would need to step up more and like TIMELY baskets something I haven't seen him do a lot of. (granted I only was able to watch a couple of games early this year because I moved, so maybe there's been more improvement there than I've given him credit for).

    Also, even if bargs can play at a Durant, Dirk, Gasol, Garnett, Boozer, or Bosh level. ALL of those guys are playing (or played last season) with at least two (often 3) other players that are better (in most cases by A LOT) than anyone on the raps (except maybe Dirk)

    westbrooke/harden
    Kobe/Odom/Bynum
    Pierce/Rondo/Allen
    Rose/Noah/Deng
    Lebron/Wade

    I would say Chandler is better than anyone we have at center, but Kidd is not that much of an upgrade over Jose, the difference with Dallas is their role players stepped up BIG JJ Barea and Terry made timely buckets (as alluded to about by torch)

    SO the main problem with the raps is not Bargnani, it's pretty much every other position. Derozan needs to step up, we need a new point guard (if calderon resigns [doubtful] he's should be transitioned to back up) and we need a new SF, because can a line up of Calderon/Derozan/JJ/Bargs/JV get to the conference finals or finals, I don't think so.

    The good news is that we have a few different ways to land some better players. We have a high DRAFT pick, we are in good financial shape to sign a FA, and have good pieces to use in a TRADE. IF BC could use those opportunities to get TWO good players than we are talking. I really hope BC can pull it off. I still remember when the Raps beat the Knicks for their first playoff series victory and it was AWESOME! I really want to get into the playoffs, but what I want even more is to get to the conference finals.

    The organization is really at a crossroads right now, a couple good moves and a couple years and we are going to be a scary team to play, at the same time we are 1 bad contract, or bad player away from having to blow everything up and start all over again (probably with a different head coach and gm...)

    Personally, I have enough confidence in Coangelo that I think by year 3 will win a playoff series. Unfortunately I don't have enough faith in Coangelo to say that we can get out of the second round.

    Hopefully by next January we'll all be happy with the direction of the organization.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Thu May 10th, 2012 at 05:10 AM.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  12. #12
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Silly question. The answer is "of course, if..."

    Bargs plays the four, at a pretty high level. He just needs to be surrounded with a couple of elite (all-star at least) players at two other positions (PG and C would be best) and very good players at the other two, and backed up by three very good, solid bench players.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Hmm,

    I am going to interpret the question means "Can you win a championship with Bargnani as your number 1 option?"

    I am going to say no, but it is not so simple as a yes or no question.

    To me, three things matter.

    1. Which Bargnani are we getting? Are we getting first 13 games of the season Bargnani where he looked like a killer (and even played a bit of D), or are we going to get the Bargs that struggled with injuries and had a tough time on D (and even on offense)? Bargnani, when playing his best ball, is one of the best offensive players in the game. Can he play his best for a consistent period of time?

    2. Consistency. I can not remember a Raptor so inconsistent. If he can play his best every night (like how he played at the start of the year) for a whole year, then I think he could be a number 1 option on a winning team, but that is assuming he is competent of defense.

    3. Defense. If he does not play solid D with Casey, does it even matter if he is a solid first option on offense? You will not win championships if you have a guy other teams can exploit like Bargs. We saw some improvements on the defensive end of the floor, and I think he can play decent defense with Casey (I think anybody can), but he needs to be consistently solid there, and that is something he has never been his whole career.

    I think he has the potential to be a number 1 guy on a championship team, but think about it, he has yet to be the number 1 option on a team that broke .500.

    This question is pretty much "Could Bargnani ever be Finals MVP?"

    Sounds crazy when you put it like that.

    If he can deal with those problems I listed (consistency, playing his best, defense), then sure he can, but those or three of the biggest "ifs" you can list.

    So no, you can not win a championship with Bargs as your number 1 option.

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    To succeed to the highest levels of his potential, Bargnani (an elite scoring nightmare) needs to be paired with a bruising, rebounding, rim protecting, long Center beside him ... If that is Valanciunas, as we hope, then maybe we'll see.

    Kind of odd to think that a team couldn't win a ring with Bargnani on it - what if the HEAT traded Bosh for Bargnani, can you see the HEAT winning a ring with Bargnani? For sure.

    If the question is really, can we win a ring with him being the most talented player by far? We won't even make the playoffs, because any roster of a contender has 2 or 3 players with star power - and Bargs can be one of those on a contender, assuming the other pieces gel well with him.

    Hypothetical: We sign Nash (possible, if unlikely), Amnesty Jose to offer a large deal to Batum, draft Marshall, sign some great veterans like Grant Hill, Raja Bell, etc ... we are a contender in the East - WITH Bargnani.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Yes we can win a championship with Bargs on the team if he's not the number one option. No we can't win a championship with Bargs if he's the number one option.

    More importantly (imo) a team built around Bargs is not a team which can sustain it's winning ways. There is something fundamentaly incorrect about building around a non franchise quality player.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    The Lakers won a Championship with Adam Morrison and DJ Mbenga.

    Not to compare them, but I think you need rephrase the thread title to qualify what Bargs role would be on this 'Championship winning Team', as many have already stated.

    I remember people saying that Dallas will never win one if Dirk was their best and only option.
    Anythings Possible.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Whether Bargnani's the number 1, 2 or 5 option isn't really a concern for me. Instead, if Bargnani is playing heavy minutes, it comes down to his defensive contributions. If Bargnani can stay on the floor without being a liability on the defensive end, then sure, a championship is possible.

    The playoffs, in a halfcourt set, is all about exploiting matchups. Good coaches will find the weakest defensive link, and milk it until you're forced to counter.
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Yes we can win a championship with Bargs on the team if he's not the number one option. No we can't win a championship with Bargs if he's the number one option.

    More importantly (imo) a team built around Bargs is not a team which can sustain it's winning ways. There is something fundamentaly incorrect about building around a non franchise quality player.
    +1

    I know Bargs was playing well, but you can tell a franchise player when you see them. There are only a few in the league, and we have seen enough from him to know that he is not.
    Bargs will be most effective as a guy who is used as a mismatch offensively for particular matchups. If we had the luxury of one day bringing him off the bench as a 6th man that would be ideal. But to hang our hats on him on both ends of the floor, and running every play through him will never be. He is a great player, but he is a piece.

    I like the Dirk comparison because Bargs actually has a better all around skill set. He is a better shot blocker, he is faster, a better passer and can score in more ways. But that being said (and I know I'm going to catch some flack for this) Dirk was also just a piece. He was the closer, yes, but he filled one specific role of shot maker. He is not like Lebron or Kobe who can facilitate for other teammates, and change the course of the game defensively, he was just a shot maker. The rest of the team filled their roles as well, especially on the defensive end, and that's how they won.

    The same will be for the raps. We need to fill different holes we have as a team, and hopefully one day, Bargs will be in the position to take a guy one on one like Dirk did in the playoffs and hit a shot with a hand in his face. But besides that, we will need a more complete team than let's say, Miami or Orlando, to make the finals with Bargs as "the man".

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Feel free to move to the Bargnani oblivion thread, but i thought it was worth making a thread for.

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/raptors-a-...-with-bargnani

    article from hoopsworld, but i want to take it a step further. i think the raps can make the playoffs with Bargs, certainly, but what about a championship? I'm sure people will point to Dirk, and the strong supporting cast he needed to win it all, but Dirk's a superstar. Bargs hasn't even made a allstar game in the weak east. I'm not saying there's absolutely no way the raptors win with him, but when i really pause to think about it i don't know...

    Discuss.
    You can win a Championship with anybody. It all comes down to what their role is and who else is on the team. If the question is can the Raptors win with Bargnani being "the man" then I would probably say no. However, Bargnani would be an excellent sidekick to someone. Even here in Toronto.

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Yeah I really should have specified that, my bad.

    Can the raps win it all with Bargs as THE dude?

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