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Thread: Can you win a championship with Bargnani?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Yeah I really should have specified that, my bad.

    Can the raps win it all with Bargs as THE dude?
    Most likely not.

    LeBron couldn't do it as THE dude.

    Kobe couldn't make the playoffs in his PRIME following Shaq's departure.

    Took Dirk a long time and a lot of veteran help.

    Dwight Howard is unable to do it.

    Pierce/KG/Allen couldn't do it as THE dude.

    A lot of factors go in to winning and of 30 teams, only one will win each season.

  2. #22
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    Yeah I really should have specified that, my bad.

    Can the raps win it all with Bargs as THE dude?
    OK, I'm changing my mind. Andrea can be the dude and the Raptors can still win it if they have at least four or five guys with comparable talent(note I'm not saying abilities) to Andrea. Think the Detroit Pistons of around eight years ago now. The Pistons showed they could do it with a handful of non-superstars who were all at least arguably borderline all-stars. That said, the stars aligned for them that year and they had a lot of luck. The Raptors need luck. That's been a sparse commodity in Toronto for close to decades, right? The Raptors are overdue for some luck.

  3. #23
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    Not a chance.

    You win championships with elite talent in this league.

    If Andrea is a part of the team like say Jason Terry was a scoring component of the Mavs last year of course it is possible to win a championship with him on your roster, but if you are asking him to play the Dirk role (alpha male) in that equation it won't happen.

    Andrea Bargnani is not an elite player in the NBA and hasn't shown he will ever approach that level in the years he has been in the league. Lebron couldn't, Kobe couldn't and there are no comparisons with these players and Andrea.

    And to those that feel it is possible, we might as well have done everything humany possible to keep Bosh if you feel that way no?

  4. #24
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    To win a championship so many things have to fall in place that there is no way to answer with any degree of certainty one way or the other. As far as talent level goes he can contribute offensively but if he isn't efficient and he's throwing up over 15 shots for his 20 + it negates that offensive talent. On the other side of the ball there are lots of guys that are better so if the scoring is coming from elsewhere better defense wins championships. As far as being a veteran long time Raptor that is a positive to team chemistry I can't answer but we know that is another big part of championship teams.

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    Considering Adam Morrison won two championships with the Lakers and that Adam Morrison was selected two spots after Andrea Bargnani, we can safely conclude the Raptors failed to draft the "difference maker".

  6. #26
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Not a chance.

    You win championships with elite talent in this league.

    If Andrea is a part of the team like say Jason Terry was a scoring component of the Mavs last year of course it is possible to win a championship with him on your roster, but if you are asking him to play the Dirk role (alpha male) in that equation it won't happen.

    Andrea Bargnani is not an elite player in the NBA and hasn't shown he will ever approach that level in the years he has been in the league. Lebron couldn't, Kobe couldn't and there are no comparisons with these players and Andrea.

    And to those that feel it is possible, we might as well have done everything humany possible to keep Bosh if you feel that way no?
    If you put him out there with Big Ben, Prince, Rip and Billups in their prime year you don't think they would have a legit shot at winning it all? I think they would. In such a scenario Bargnani would be the most talented scorer and so he'd be their go to guy on offense.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    Considering Adam Morrison won two championships with the Lakers and that Adam Morrison was selected two spots after Andrea Bargnani, we can safely conclude the Raptors failed to draft the "difference maker".
    Well said.

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    Quote [B wrote:
    Apollo;129856]If you put him out there with Big Ben, Prince, Rip and Billups in their prime year you don't think they would have a legit shot at winning it all? I think they would. In such a scenario Bargnani would be the most talented scorer and so he'd be their go to guy on offense[/B].
    That's the point exactly. We have to recognize what Bargs is, and build from there. Its what we failed to do with Bosh. BC failed in putting players around him that would help him do what he does best, which is fill a role really well.

    So Bargs will be the most effective scorer most nights because he is a matchup problem for nearly every team. Now, lets get a 5 who can anchor the defense, some outside shooters who can create off the dribble, and one player who can come off the bench and make a difference ala james posey or lamar odom (in his good days). If we do that we will be a really good team.

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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    That's the point exactly. We have to recognize what Bargs is, and build from there. Its what we failed to do with Bosh. BC failed in putting players around him that would help him do what he does best, which is fill a role really well.

    So Bargs will be the most effective scorer most nights because he is a matchup problem for nearly every team. Now, lets get a 5 who can anchor the defense, some outside shooters who can create off the dribble, and one player who can come off the bench and make a difference ala james posey or lamar odom (in his good days). If we do that we will be a really good team.
    Isn't this currently what is going on?

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Starter hotfuzz's Avatar
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    Kind of odd to think that a team couldn't win a ring with Bargnani on it - what if the HEAT traded Bosh for Bargnani, can you see the HEAT winning a ring with Bargnani? For sure.
    Very interesting thought. I wonder as well what would have happened if they would have traded for bargnani instead of bosh and then signed or traded for a hard nosed, rebounding machine C like a chandler.
    They could have used AB to come off the bench and be an instant scoring threat and we all know heat's bench was shit last year.
    Another thing miami struggled with last year was height (or lack thereof). AB could have been able to help with it, even though there is not much height difference between bosh and AB, but signing AB would have allowed them to go after a better C than anthony (who was undersized).
    Last edited by hotfuzz; Thu May 10th, 2012 at 12:37 PM.
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  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote hotfuzz wrote: View Post
    Very interesting thought. I wonder as well what would have happened if they would have traded for bargnani instead of bosh and then singned or traded for a hard nosed, rebounding machine C like a chandler.
    They could have used AB to come off the bench and be an instant and we all know heat's bench was shit last year.
    Another thing miami struggled with last year was height (or lack thereof). AB could have been able to help with it, even though there is not much height difference between bosh and AB, but signing AB would have allowed them to go after a better C than anthony (who was undersized).
    I'm not sure if LeBron would've chosen Miami if the Wade-Bosh tandem didn't already exist.

    2 years after the fact, we all remember the situation as 3 star players "colluding" to form a super team. But I honestly don't think it was that premeditated.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    If you put him out there with Big Ben, Prince, Rip and Billups in their prime year you don't think they would have a legit shot at winning it all? I think they would. In such a scenario Bargnani would be the most talented scorer and so he'd be their go to guy on offense.
    Man, I love listening to your insight and I mean no disrespect, but if you think that Bargnani could have the same impact Rasheed Wallace had on the Pistons you iz loco! 'Sheed brought hard nosed defence, attitude along with the ability to stretch the floor and score in the post. No way the Pistons would have been "The Pistons" with Bargs on the floor. It's like picking out picking out an accountant from a line up of serial killers. How many tech's has Bargs received in his entire career even?

  13. #33
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote BallaBalla wrote: View Post
    and one player who can come off the bench and make a difference ala james posey or lamar odom (in his good days). If we do that we will be a really good team.
    James Posey?! Haha Going way back.
    You seriously couldn't think of a better 6th man than him??
    In Masai we Trust.

  14. #34
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    James Posey?! Haha Going way back.
    You seriously couldn't think of a better 6th man than him??
    hahaha no idea why he popped into my head....but there you go

  15. #35
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Isn't this currently what is going on?
    I have no idea...is it? I didn't mean that comment to be general, but more specific i.e. we should understand the types of players that will fit with an inside out 4 because we went through it with Bosh. But then BC goes ahead and signs Klieza and Amir so you never know with him

  16. #36
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Man, I love listening to your insight and I mean no disrespect, but if you think that Bargnani could have the same impact Rasheed Wallace had on the Pistons you iz loco!
    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    No way the Pistons would have been "The Pistons" with Bargs on the floor.
    Where did I say that? Check that. I said "If you put him out there with Big Ben, Prince, Rip and Billups in their prime year you don't think they would have a legit shot at winning it all?" I didn't say they would be as good with Bargnani replaced for Sheed.


    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    'Sheed brought hard nosed defence, attitude along with the ability to stretch the floor and score in the post.
    I agree.

  17. #37
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure if LeBron would've chosen Miami if the Wade-Bosh tandem didn't already exist.

    2 years after the fact, we all remember the situation as 3 star players "colluding" to form a super team. But I honestly don't think it was that premeditated.


    Haha. Is that like being just a bit pregnant?

    I am of course in the pro conspiracy camp. There is just too much pointing at that happening. Briefly, they admit discussing the possibility of playing together at the Olympics. They all had the same agency/Leon Rose representation. All 3 went for the opt out option after 3 years of their extension deal (at the same time). Riley gutted the Heat over a two year period to accomodate 3 max deals (well nearly max deals).

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Haha. Is that like being just a bit pregnant?

    I am of course in the pro conspiracy camp. There is just too much pointing at that happening. Briefly, they admit discussing the possibility of playing together at the Olympics. They all had the same agency/Leon Rose representation. All 3 went for the opt out option after 3 years of their extension deal (at the same time). Riley gutted the Heat over a two year period to accomodate 3 max deals (well nearly max deals).
    I'm sure those kind of discussions happen all the time between players during all-star weekend. As for opt-outs, one could argue that the expiring CBA had more to do with it. And yes, Riley did gut the roster in preparation for the summer of 2010, but so did other teams. Riley just did a better job of it (thanks to Colangelo). There were talks of Chicago and New York aiming for multiple max players too.

    Do I believe all 3 guys knew Miami was their destination months in advance? No.

    Days/weeks in advance, but well after the season ended? Yes (which should help explain the degree of premeditation I mentioned above ).
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  19. #39
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Most likely not.

    LeBron couldn't do it as THE dude.

    Kobe couldn't make the playoffs in his PRIME following Shaq's departure.

    Took Dirk a long time and a lot of veteran help.

    Dwight Howard is unable to do it.

    Pierce/KG/Allen couldn't do it as THE dude.

    A lot of factors go in to winning and of 30 teams, only one will win each season.

    Exactly.

  20. #40
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    If you put him out there with Big Ben, Prince, Rip and Billups in their prime year you don't think they would have a legit shot at winning it all? I think they would. In such a scenario Bargnani would be the most talented scorer and so he'd be their go to guy on offense.
    Not likely no.

    I only say that because I think the example of that Piston team was a sum of parts greater than the individuals. Bargnani doesn't bring to that team what Wallace did. Would they still be a good team with Andrea.....of course they would, but I don't think he could have played Rasheed's role as well as Rasheed played it.

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