View Poll Results: Would you ever cheer for Vince again?

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Thread: Everything Wince

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  1. #1
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Default Everything Wince

    This interview was posted in the Free Agency thread by KingMaxwell, but I wanted to shine a little more light on it, as he makes some great quotes throughout the interview.

    Catching Up With Vince Carter

    On possibly signing with the Raptors:
    Quote Vince Carter wrote:
    Of course it’s something that I would definitely consider. And it’s something in the free agency this year, once everything was worked out with Phoenix and I was a free agent, that was a question I was asked by my family and by my agent. He’s like ‘what if?’ and I was like, ‘hey, definitely, we’ll hear what they have to say.’ So I never rule it out.
    Initially reflecting on his time with the Raptors:
    Quote Vince Carter wrote:
    It’s where it all started for me, my opportunity. Glen Grunwald, Butch Carter gave me the opportunity. I remember day one, Butch Carter comes to me and says ‘Vince, we’re gonna show the world what you’re made of, who you are and what you’re about.’ Day two, Charles Oakley puts his arm around me and says ‘Hey, I’m gonna show you the ropes.’ And from there I felt comfortable. It was a young kid coming to a new city, just growing up in front of millions of people. It was just an unbelievable experience. You’re going to go through ups and downs in your life, in your career, that we all go through. That’s understood. But they were all worth it, because it adds character. It was just phenomenal. You can learn. Eight years removed from it, you’ve seen so many things happen to other players, and you can kind of really enlighten them if ever asked. It’s been a wonderful ride. It’s just hard to believe it’s been 14 years now, and I’m still playing the game I love.
    On the perception that Toronto is a bad city to play in:
    Quote Vince Carter wrote:
    Toronto is one of the best kept secrets, and that was one of the tough things about convincing other players to come play for the Raptors at the time is that they didn’t know. And that was one of the things I was trying to push at the time with the NBA, along with the fans and the organization, help Toronto gain recognition and put us on the map. Let the world see who we are and what we’re about and what the city of Toronto is about. I can speak on behalf of some of my friends, basketball fans, when they come to Toronto, they fall in love with it. They say ‘Oh man, I love Toronto, I love Toronto.’ It’s just that on a national level, it wasn’t known and it didn’t gain that recognition. We had some pretty good teams, but we had to get into the playoffs to be recognized. And it was just tough. And that was one of the things I talked about when people said ‘your team is underrated.’ I used to say ‘hey, give us a shot. Let us put Toronto and Canada on the map. Let us be seen.’ It’s unfortunate. It has happened, but it just hasn’t happened consistently. And I still think the younger players in the league now have no idea how great Canada is.
    On whether he hopes to one day be Accepted by Raptors Fans:
    Quote Vince Carter wrote:
    Yeah, of course you hope for it. You know, that’s where I started. I have so many memories. Like with the questions you’ve asked, it’s brought chills because you just think back to where it started. I was able to play in a time in this city where it was, it wasn’t known, it wasn’t a popular place to be. But at the same time, there was love. When we were able to beat the Knicks for that first playoff win, I recalled making the first basket in the Air Canada Centre. That’s something that I’ll never ever forget. So I do hope for it because every time I walk in there now and I look up there, I just say, ‘Hey man, I made history here.’ You know? I won Rookie of the Year here. I won the slam dunk contest representing Toronto. That’s never been done. I have plenty of memories and you definitely hope for it.

    What do you say guys? Water under the bridge? C'moon. C'mooooon!
    In Masai we Trust.

  2. #2
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default A trip down memory lane

    He gets what he deserves and what he deserves was determined by his actions. This many people can't be wrong and as far as I know he never apologized to the city for publicly demanding a trade and killing any leverage the club could have used to move him for as close to worth a possible. He achieved this by tanking games and faking an injury. There were even reports after one game that he told the opposing team what they were about to run in the closing minute of a close game. His actions destroyed the team for years to come. He showed a lack of professionalism, honor and integrity and for that he deserves to be heckled for as long as people feel its warranted.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Strength in numbers, yes. More truth in numbers, no.

    He'll get an ovation, his last game at the acc. But, until then the boos should come louder than ever.

  4. #4
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Strength in numbers, yes. More truth in numbers, no.

    He'll get an ovation, his last game at the acc. But, until then the boos should come louder than ever.
    Alright, well truth in facts and the numbers support the reality of what transpired.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Alright, well truth in facts and the numbers support the reality of what transpired.
    Sure.

  6. #6
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    I feel I am starting to forgive him. I feel his career was cursed after the Raps and never achieved a championship or success after he left. KNowing that, I think we should come to terms with each other. I was one of his biggest haters, but if he is man enough to give Toronto props, he started this whole thing, so maybe I can man up and forgive.

  7. #7
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He gets what he deserves and what he deserves was determined by his actions. This many people can't be wrong and as far as I know he never apologized to the city for publicly demanding a trade and killing any leverage the club could have used to move him for as close to worth a possible. He achieved this by tanking games and faking an injury. There were even reports after one game that he told the opposing team what they were about to run in the closing minute of a close game. His actions destroyed the team for years to come. He showed a lack of professionalism, honor and integrity and for that he deserves to be heckled for as long as people feel its warranted.
    +1
    my sentiment exactly

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He gets what he deserves and what he deserves was determined by his actions. This many people can't be wrong and as far as I know he never apologized to the city for publicly demanding a trade and killing any leverage the club could have used to move him for as close to worth a possible. He achieved this by tanking games and faking an injury. There were even reports after one game that he told the opposing team what they were about to run in the closing minute of a close game. His actions destroyed the team for years to come. He showed a lack of professionalism, honor and integrity and for that he deserves to be heckled for as long as people feel its warranted.
    Yep.

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He showed a lack of professionalism, honor and integrity and for that he deserves to be heckled for as long as people feel its warranted.
    But I guess thats my question; how long is truly warranted? While keeping in mind everything he did do for this franchise.
    In Masai we Trust.

  10. #10
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I can't do it.

    He is cut from the same cloth as Carmelo Anthony in my opinion. He admittedly quit on his team and forced his way out. I can't cheer for a quitter. If he forced his way out while continuing to play hard that would be a different story but he didn't so I can't cheer for him under any circumstances..... except maybe if he donated me a kidney but then I'd cheer him as a person and not a basketball player. I'd still boo him in Toronto as long as he was wearing a basketball jersey.

  11. #11
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    If you asked me this question earlier in the year I probably would have said Yes.. but after thinking about it some more, I'm going to have to say No.

    ... and here are 10 reasons why:


  12. #12
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    If you asked me this question earlier in the year I probably would have said Yes.. but after thinking about it some more, I'm going to have to say No.

    ... and here are 10 reasons why:

    Motherf*cker.... he can keep the kidney. I'd rather die. (just joking and I know organ transplants is probably not great joke material).


    Regarding Vince Carter, as Johnny Cash said at the end of A Boy Named Sue: "I still hate that name!"

  13. #13
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Motherf*cker.... he can keep the kidney. I'd rather die. (just joking and I know organ transplants is probably not great joke material).


    Regarding Vince Carter, as Johnny Cash said at the end of A Boy Named Sue: "I still hate that name!"
    I'm not a huge Carter fan (like any Raptors fan is), but some of those reasons are just terrible.
    6) Injuries. I'm supposed to hate the guy because he got hurt? He didn't Paul Pierce it. He legitimately got injured and it sucked for him as much as it did for anyone else.
    5) The Mo Pete slap. clearly Carter meant nothing bad by it and it was more about a ref that looked their way at the wrong time than it was about any real mallice. Carter even tried to smooth things over with the ref right after it happened.
    4) Going to his graduation. Carter went to celebrate a huge accomplishment. When my kids look up to pro athletes, I hope they look up to one like Vince that took their education seriously and fully appreciated the opportunity that they were given in College. He was proud to have graduated and he had every right to be. Somehow jaunting down to NC and back made him miss that last shot of the game? BS. I still remember Oakley turning the ball over in the first half on one of his patented behind the back passes with a 100% turnover rate. The sixers got an easy basket on the resulting break-away. At the time, I told my friends "if they lose this game by a single point, I'm blaming Oakley because he should damn well know better by now than to pull that shit (even though he did it at least once a game). So if you want to blame somebody for the one-point loss, blame Charles Oakley. Or better yet, don't blame anybody. Oakley was great otherwise, and that team was generally solid, and they lost by a single point in game seven to another really good team. Boo hoo.
    3) Making fun of Raptors fans for chanting MVP about CB. He was damn right. Chris Bosh was great, still is very good. But we knew then as we know now that there are a good number of players in the league that are way better.
    2) The trade. Two things here: not Carter's fault that we got squat on the trade, though the fact that he publically wanted out surely didn't help leverage a good deal. But the video includes him mentioning the issues with team management in Toronto at the time, and he's right. It was a mess for a few years there and I'd be frustrated too if I were him.

    The other items are all pretty fair (though I don't really care about the Vince's mom one either).

  14. #14
    Raptors Republic Rookie Paradigm Shift's Avatar
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    Quote big red wrote: View Post
    4) Going to his graduation. Carter went to celebrate a huge accomplishment. When my kids look up to pro athletes, I hope they look up to one like Vince that took their education seriously and fully appreciated the opportunity that they were given in College. He was proud to have graduated and he had every right to be.
    I have never understood this line of reasoning. It's not like he graduated on time. It's not like he went through a 4 yr program with a cohort of pals with whom he stayed up late debating theory. Did he want to be there with his men and women from the various study groups he participated in? His cohort was long gone from the university.

    His graduation date was completely arbitrary. He could have easily deferred his graduation to the next convocation, in the fall. It would have been simple, but clearly his cohort/responsibilities in Toronto were not important enough to delay an arbitrary deadline.

  15. #15
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote big red wrote: View Post
    I'm not a huge Carter fan (like any Raptors fan is), but some of those reasons are just terrible.
    6) Injuries. I'm supposed to hate the guy because he got hurt? He didn't Paul Pierce it. He legitimately got injured and it sucked for him as much as it did for anyone else.
    5) The Mo Pete slap. clearly Carter meant nothing bad by it and it was more about a ref that looked their way at the wrong time than it was about any real mallice. Carter even tried to smooth things over with the ref right after it happened.
    4) Going to his graduation. Carter went to celebrate a huge accomplishment. When my kids look up to pro athletes, I hope they look up to one like Vince that took their education seriously and fully appreciated the opportunity that they were given in College. He was proud to have graduated and he had every right to be. Somehow jaunting down to NC and back made him miss that last shot of the game? BS. I still remember Oakley turning the ball over in the first half on one of his patented behind the back passes with a 100% turnover rate. The sixers got an easy basket on the resulting break-away. At the time, I told my friends "if they lose this game by a single point, I'm blaming Oakley because he should damn well know better by now than to pull that shit (even though he did it at least once a game). So if you want to blame somebody for the one-point loss, blame Charles Oakley. Or better yet, don't blame anybody. Oakley was great otherwise, and that team was generally solid, and they lost by a single point in game seven to another really good team. Boo hoo.
    3) Making fun of Raptors fans for chanting MVP about CB. He was damn right. Chris Bosh was great, still is very good. But we knew then as we know now that there are a good number of players in the league that are way better.
    2) The trade. Two things here: not Carter's fault that we got squat on the trade, though the fact that he publically wanted out surely didn't help leverage a good deal. But the video includes him mentioning the issues with team management in Toronto at the time, and he's right. It was a mess for a few years there and I'd be frustrated too if I were him.

    The other items are all pretty fair (though I don't really care about the Vince's mom one either).

    Your opinion, and I respect that, above but here is my take:

    6) Injuries - he milked them. Look at the miracle 'recovery' in NJ. Was it the 'fresh' New Jersey air? Was it the water? He played half-assed and used injuries as an excuse. He couldn't handle pain or discomfort. He had a poor work ethic and dedication to his craft as is evidenced by physical progression (or lack thereof) throughout his career. This is only my opinion from watching the numerous times he hit the floor like shrapnel from a grenade hit him. He is a joke around the league as well - plenty of commentators and players have poked at his antics over the years.

    5) To slap him in the face to begin with is an extreme d!ck move - EXTREME. You don't slap someone in the face who you respect under any circumstances. I was at a party in my younger days (mid-20's) and a guy was being funny and hit me with a spatula very gently on the cheek. I'm not sure if you are a wrestling fan but back in the day I was. I picked the guy up and dropped him on his back (picture Diesel/Kevin Nash sidewalk slam but without the throw off the ropes). Was it cool on my part? Looking back, no, but I was absolutely livid at the time. No one else at the party really had a problem with my reaction either because it was a d!ck move on his part. He left a short time after and I heard threw the grapevine he had a monster bruise on his side from his lat through his hip down to his quad. Proper thing I say. I'd probably have a different reaction today - age, kids, less booze certainly tames a fellow.

    4) Did Carter graduate with his class? No. He left for the NBA early. Does UNC offer graduations at other times during the year? The 2 universities I attended had a spring and fall convocation - not just spring. Could a superstar like him who donates obscene amounts make arrangements to graduate with another class in the fall? I don't see why not unless I am missing something. Again, it is not like he went to school for 4 years with the people he graduated with and had numerous memories and experiences with. Again just my opinion but there were ways around this situation whereby he did not alienate his coaches, teammates, and Raptor fans (both paying and not). Those ways would have required patience and a delay of gratification on his part but at $12M per year I think that is a reasonable request.

    3) Fans always chant M-V-P for a team's top player - especially through the end of the season. I agree Bosh is not an MVP calibre player.

    2) The lack of return on the trade is without question Carter's fault. It is through his actions - and other players - that the league brought in a policy to fine players, and even their agents, who use the media to demand a trade.
    Trade demands only became actionable offenses after the 2004-'05 season. Discomfited by the high-profile ultimatums of Vince Carter, Baron Davis, Shaquille O'Neal, Tracy McGrady and Shareef Abdur-Rahim, NBA officials told the players union during talks for the 2005 Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) that such demands would henceforth fall under Rule 35, a player misconduct provision in the league constitution. Public trade demands are now considered "statements detrimental to the NBA" and fines of $50,000 or less for off-court behavior cannot be appealed through a grievance arbitrator.

    The first player to get slapped with a trade-demand fine was Ron Artest, who was then an Indiana Pacer. Artest's request came early in the 2005-'06 campaign, and cost him $25,000. For the next four years, the ban was not invoked. Evidently, the public trade demands of at least five players were deemed "less than detrimental":

    "I would like to be traded, yeah. Tough as it is to come to that conclusion there's no other alternative, you know... At this point I'll go play on Pluto." - Kobe Bryant, March 2007

    "I'm tired of hearing my name in trades. I love my fans in Phoenix, but I think it's time for me to move on." - Shawn Marion, September, 2007

    "We tried to make this work. We've found out it doesn't. It's time or us all to move on." - Jason Kidd, January, 2008

    "I want to be moved. I want to be moved. I want to be moved. I want to be traded." -- Mickael Pietrus, February, 2008

    "I didn't want to play for (Golden State Warriors executive Chris) Mullin. I told him that this summer. I reiterated that again to Mully. I've told him twice since training camp has started that I don't want to be here." - Al Harrington, October, 2008

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arn-te..._b_442385.html
    Not only did Carter lower his trade value through words but also through actions. Check his stats from that 2004-2005 season:

    20 games
    30.4 minutes per game
    15.8 points
    .411 fg
    .322 3pt
    .694 ft (3.6 attempts)
    3.3 rebounds
    3.0 assists
    0.8 blocks
    1.3 steals

    Now look at New Jersey:

    57 games
    38.9 minutes
    27.5 points
    .462 fg
    .425 3pt
    .817 ft (6.8 attemtps)
    5.9 rebounds
    4.7 assists
    0.6 block
    1.5 steal

    One could make arguments that he was playing on a better team and he had Jason Kidd setting him up and that is fine - personally I say bullsh!t but whatever. The one area I do not think anyone could argue is the free throw. Both the attempts and the percentage from Toronto to New Jersey is absolutely ridiculous.

  16. #16
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Your opinion, and I respect that, above but here is my take:

    6) Injuries - he milked them. Look at the miracle 'recovery' in NJ. Was it the 'fresh' New Jersey air? Was it the water? He played half-assed and used injuries as an excuse. He couldn't handle pain or discomfort. He had a poor work ethic and dedication to his craft as is evidenced by physical progression (or lack thereof) throughout his career. This is only my opinion from watching the numerous times he hit the floor like shrapnel from a grenade hit him. He is a joke around the league as well - plenty of commentators and players have poked at his antics over the years.

    5) To slap him in the face to begin with is an extreme d!ck move - EXTREME. You don't slap someone in the face who you respect under any circumstances. I was at a party in my younger days (mid-20's) and a guy was being funny and hit me with a spatula very gently on the cheek. I'm not sure if you are a wrestling fan but back in the day I was. I picked the guy up and dropped him on his back (picture Diesel/Kevin Nash sidewalk slam but without the throw off the ropes). Was it cool on my part? Looking back, no, but I was absolutely livid at the time. No one else at the party really had a problem with my reaction either because it was a d!ck move on his part. He left a short time after and I heard threw the grapevine he had a monster bruise on his side from his lat through his hip down to his quad. Proper thing I say. I'd probably have a different reaction today - age, kids, less booze certainly tames a fellow.

    4) Did Carter graduate with his class? No. He left for the NBA early. Does UNC offer graduations at other times during the year? The 2 universities I attended had a spring and fall convocation - not just spring. Could a superstar like him who donates obscene amounts make arrangements to graduate with another class in the fall? I don't see why not unless I am missing something. Again, it is not like he went to school for 4 years with the people he graduated with and had numerous memories and experiences with. Again just my opinion but there were ways around this situation whereby he did not alienate his coaches, teammates, and Raptor fans (both paying and not). Those ways would have required patience and a delay of gratification on his part but at $12M per year I think that is a reasonable request.

    3) Fans always chant M-V-P for a team's top player - especially through the end of the season. I agree Bosh is not an MVP calibre player.

    2) The lack of return on the trade is without question Carter's fault. It is through his actions - and other players - that the league brought in a policy to fine players, and even their agents, who use the media to demand a trade.


    Not only did Carter lower his trade value through words but also through actions. Check his stats from that 2004-2005 season:

    20 games
    30.4 minutes per game
    15.8 points
    .411 fg
    .322 3pt
    .694 ft (3.6 attempts)
    3.3 rebounds
    3.0 assists
    0.8 blocks
    1.3 steals

    Now look at New Jersey:

    57 games
    38.9 minutes
    27.5 points
    .462 fg
    .425 3pt
    .817 ft (6.8 attemtps)
    5.9 rebounds
    4.7 assists
    0.6 block
    1.5 steal

    One could make arguments that he was playing on a better team and he had Jason Kidd setting him up and that is fine - personally I say bullsh!t but whatever. The one area I do not think anyone could argue is the free throw. Both the attempts and the percentage from Toronto to New Jersey is absolutely ridiculous.
    carter did more for toronto and the raptors organization than you ever will talking smack from your keyboard. Did he tarnish his reputation by giving up at the end? Of course he did, and the hate would've been understandable if it lasted for a year or two.

    But it takes a certain type of maturity (that you clearly do not have), to respect what he did for the community and the franchise and in the end forgive him. He doubled the value of the franchise for goodness sakes. What the hell have you done matt?

  17. #17
    Super Moderator .40 Cal Flakes's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    If you asked me this question earlier in the year I probably would have said Yes.. but after thinking about it some more, I'm going to have to say No.

    ... and here are 10 reasons why:


    This.



    Fuck Wince.

    That is all.

  18. #18
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    I absolutely love Vince. He was my childhood hero, the first player who's name I ever knew, the first three jerseys I ever owned were his, and even after he was traded, he was my favourite player. He's the reason I ever got into basketball, and I'm sure a lot of Canadians will agree. I'm sure if you ask Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, and Myck Kabongo who their favourite player was growing up, they'd say Vince. Hell, Kevin Durant was a Raptors fan while growing up in D.C. because of Vince. When I found out Vince was traded I practically balled my eyes out. I don't think I was old enough to understand the implications at the time, so I may be biased, but I think he is the greatest Raptor ever, and I will never boo him.

  19. #19
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote KingMaxwell47 wrote: View Post
    I absolutely love Vince. He was my childhood hero, the first player who's name I ever knew, the first three jerseys I ever owned were his, and even after he was traded, he was my favourite player. He's the reason I ever got into basketball, and I'm sure a lot of Canadians will agree. I'm sure if you ask Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, and Myck Kabongo who their favourite player was growing up, they'd say Vince. Hell, Kevin Durant was a Raptors fan while growing up in D.C. because of Vince. When I found out Vince was traded I practically balled my eyes out. I don't think I was old enough to understand the implications at the time, so I may be biased, but I think he is the greatest Raptor ever, and I will never boo him.
    I'm with you Max.
    In Masai we Trust.

  20. #20
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    Quote KingMaxwell47 wrote: View Post
    I absolutely love Vince. He was my childhood hero, the first player who's name I ever knew, the first three jerseys I ever owned were his, and even after he was traded, he was my favourite player. He's the reason I ever got into basketball, and I'm sure a lot of Canadians will agree. I'm sure if you ask Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, and Myck Kabongo who their favourite player was growing up, they'd say Vince. Hell, Kevin Durant was a Raptors fan while growing up in D.C. because of Vince. When I found out Vince was traded I practically balled my eyes out. I don't think I was old enough to understand the implications at the time, so I may be biased, but I think he is the greatest Raptor ever, and I will never boo him.
    I don't expect to change the minds of the anti Vince camp but to help clarify the situation for those who would entertain the thought of supporting him. Remember what Glen Grunwald said about him - as great a basketball player as he is, he is a better human being. You got to ask yourself how could such an admittidly great human being end up in such a predicament? This reminds me very much of the Ben Johnson Charlie Francis (God rest his soul) saga. The passionate Mr. Francis tried to tell anyone that would listen that the world was cheating and making a mockery of Canada and our talent! They went to war for Canada but when it came time for Canada to fight for them, they threw them under the bus. Some very powerful people felt it was better to vilify them so they could look like great people. Mr. Francis even had ignored documentary evidence that everyone else was cheating. History has made them undeniably correct and yet he went to his grave with no apology! What a travesty for such a great man. Vince was convinced that the Raptors were deceiving him and were not serious about winning a championship. He felt betrayed and wanted out! Vince is the only one I would believe as to whether he privately asked for a trade first or not but in any event the answer was a big no! He would have to play out the rest of his contract of however many years for the people who he felt tricked him. I can't condone what he did in the stalemate since I felt he had better options: He could have been a gentleman and stopped playing professionally for the remainder of his contract - loosing 14 million each year and lining the enemies pockets with same amount: He could have played in another league for say 5 million a year only losing 9 million a year and hope MLSE doesn't sue him for breach of contract leaving him homeless on the streets of Toronto. Still "a great guy" possibly losing millions but not trapped for years playing for his deceivers under the first two scenarios: He could wade into the cesspool MLSE created and play hard ball too doing all he could to disrupt the team while losing no money. As a young man with accountants, lawyers and advisers (not his decision alone). This smacks of what money people and accountants would advise in the stalemate instead of making MLSE millions and losing millions in the process. I say if he did not play, MLSE could only line their pockets for a couple of years and 28 million the most before the public came to his rescue but who knows? Vince was in a dispute that some very powerful people could not afford to lose and have the public believe they were not serious about winning; they had their spin doctors paint him as the villain. Vince went to war for the city, the fans and the team to bring them all he felt they deserved. Doesn't matter if he actually saved the franchise the intent to save was there. He donated his time and money far beyond the call of duty and is a greater human being than definitely most and probably all that criticize him. He is a warrior who had the guts to pull on superman's cape when his deceivers (he felt, we weren't there) told him they will keep him to the end of his contract (years). He was a pawn, a sacrificial lamb in the corporate spin doctors game where it would have been devastating if he had any credibility and was claiming that MLSE was not seriously trying to win a championship. His real crime is being too good a human being and wanting the best for the city and fans. It's just business for MLSE but find it shocking that he would consider coming back after all the damage we inflicted on him - stay away Vince, you are far more than we deserve!!

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