Everything Wince

[Thornbury]

There was a deal available if memory serves, for Ray Allen at the time and I specifically remember Allen being asked about it and his reply was along the lines of "I would be happy to play in Toronto if I'm traded for Vince." Babcock should have been shot for that deal. That being said, Vince did behave fucking horribly and the "top ten reasons to hate VC" reminded me of just how bad it was. BUT, I will applaud him at his last appearance here and if he played for us which won't happen, I'd think it would be stupid not to applaud him. He was my favorite player like any of you, and in the end karma bit him in the ass. We're even

Found a link that discusses that possibility of the VC for Allen trade at the time not that it matters much now but proves Babcock could've likely done a bit better then what we got.

http://www.insidehoops.com/carter-allen-091804.shtml

[LBF]

Forgive. Never forget.

Grudges are stupid anyways. How many guys on every team have wanted out since then?

GTFOI !!!

[LBF]

No sense livin and dwelling on the shadows of the past

[ezz_bee]

I was a huge raptors fan and got really into them when I was in High School. My dad and I waited 2 hours in line before a raptors game to get a signed vince carter poster. I was such a huge Vince fan that I remember arguing in the cafeteria at during lunches that Vince was the most valuable player in the NBA, more valuable than Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant or Shaq. In my defense I argued not that he was the most talented, or dominate, but had the most ticket draw and therefore would make the team the most money. But I still considered him an elite franchise player guy. (which for his first two seasons he looked like he would be). The family computer was always decorated with the latest raptors wallpaper to use as a screen saver.

Fast forward to first year university, I'd seen vince quit on so many plays that after contemplating it for about two weeks, I decided that I was no longer a fan of the Raptors. And couldn't be as long as Vince was on the team. I took down the autographed poster from my dorm room (it made the trip to uni with me) tore it up and burned it in a garbage pail. I didn't watch a single raps game until the year bargs was drafted.

It wasn't until I started watching the raps again and reading up on basketball that I realized that I wasn't the only one who felt so let down, by Vince.

My disappointment in him has softened quite a bit in the last few years, and I think he's had the career he deserves. But I would never want him back on the raps, mostly because I don't think he adds any great value, and hasn't been a meaningful component with a playoff team since the nets, and they did better with keyon martin than with vince, with pretty much the rest of the same team.


The only way I could truly forgive him is if he signed with the raps for practically nothing, and sat on he bench, except that somehow miraculously, he became unguardable in a playoffs series and essentially is the difference maker in that series. I can't see that happening, but that's pretty much the only he could make up for the philly series. Had we won that series there's a good chance we also beat the cassel-allen-robinson bucks and win the eastern conference. But it didn't happen that way. I don't think Vince has the skills or the killer instinct he displayed in his first couple of seasons in the League so there's just no chance that he'll be able to make it up to us.

but I don't really care to put forth the energy to boo him either.

[Holy Craptors]

Cleveland will cheer LeBron before Toronto cheers Carter.

Even at the height of his popularity, even when I thought he might be the most talented player in the league, there was always a nagging voice in the back of my head telling me that he thought he was somehow above Toronto. That's reflected in the quote at the beginning of this thread when he talks about how he "made history here".

He thinks we should cheer him for what he did for us, rather than cheer for him because of who he is.

It's hard to see that ever happening.

[Afro_Daddy]

Hopefully you're not Dutch.

LOL exactly, and that sport center top 10 just re fueled my anger. at least he hasn't won shit since he left

[Puffer]

Best player the Raps have ever had in a Raps uniform (while playing for the team) no question. But he gave up on the team. You don't do that while collecting the money. He could have gone to Babcock and said, in secret, "work out a deal for me." Raps could have got something decent back.

You don't decide the marriage is over, then start screwing around on your spouse without telling them. If you do, don't expect forgiveness.

[Matt52]

There was a deal available if memory serves, for Ray Allen at the time and I specifically remember Allen being asked about it and his reply was along the lines of "I would be happy to play in Toronto if I'm traded for Vince." Babcock should have been shot for that deal. That being said, Vince did behave fucking horribly and the "top ten reasons to hate VC" reminded me of just how bad it was. BUT, I will applaud him at his last appearance here and if he played for us which won't happen, I'd think it would be stupid not to applaud him. He was my favorite player like any of you, and in the end karma bit him in the ass. We're even

Found a link that discusses that possibility of the VC for Allen trade at the time not that it matters much now but proves Babcock could've likely done a bit better then what we got.

http://www.insidehoops.com/carter-allen-091804.shtml

My interpretation of the article is the author giving a scenario, asking Ray Allen about it, and Allen saying he would have no qualms with Toronto. Babcock could have been and most likely would have been all over it. The problem is it says nothing about Seattle front office and what they were thinking at the time. Maybe they, like many other in the league, weren't about to give a fair trade because of the situation. Why pay market value or close to it when you can get it for .25cents on the dollar.

[e2thed]

Id bring him back to the Raps orginization, just to be mascot so he can do his dunks with the pop a wheelie shit afterwards and no one will have to see his dumbass under the costume. No trampolines though.

[Apollo]

But I guess thats my question; how long is truly warranted? While keeping in mind everything he did do for this franchise.

As long as you, Joey, feel it is warranted. Everyone else will do that same and if I were a betting man I would place my money on that being a long time. You're not going to change people's mind with a thread Joey. I told you what Carter would have to do to start the healing process. To start fixing this. It's foolish to forgive someone who does not look for forgiveness and does not feel he did anything wrong.

And why don't more people blame Babcock for the horrible return we got for Vince?
Vince didn't trade himself. He didn't set up the deal. He didn't pick who we got for him.

He was still Vince Carter, and any sufficiently capable GM should have been able to net a much better return.

They do blame Babcock for a bad return but those who are remembering the facts can also realize that Babcock was boxed into a losing situation. One in which he worked to the best of his abilities to rectify. This is the key fundamental principle you're missing. Babcock can look back on his time here and know that regardless of his performance he managed with integrity and to the best of his ability. He's a honorable man even if he's a mediocre general manager.

[joey_hesketh]

He thinks we should cheer him for what he did for us, rather than cheer for him because of who he is.

You think the Bulls fans only liked MJ for who he is??
You think Lakers fans only like Kobe for who he is?? C'mon man.

These athletes are placed in a city, and told to perform.
There is only one thing we should cheer Vince for, and that is the accomplishments he achieved in a Toronto Raptors uniform.

[joey_hesketh]

As long as you, Joey, feel it is warranted. Everyone else will do that same and if I were a betting man I would place my money on that being a long time. You're not going to change people's mind with a thread Joey. I told you what Carter would have to do to start the healing process. To start fixing this. It's foolish to forgive someone who does not look for forgiveness and does not feel he did anything wrong.

By no means am I trying to change peoples mind.
I learned a loong time ago, there's no doing that on this Forum. Period. Haha

[e2thed]

Vince is welcome back but he must have Jamaal Magloires 2012 season playing time.

And isn`t allowed to play home games.

[Matt52]

By no means am I trying to change peoples mind.
I learned a loong time ago, there's no doing that on this Forum. Period. Haha

lol - really though!

[NoPropsneeded]

nah I'd never forgive that dude. I'm just hoping another one of that caliber of player shows up in Toronto(hopefully on draft night) that makes us forget about him forever. That's why i have so much faith in DeRozan, he may not be that electric but at least he just shuts up, plays, and works his ass off to try to be above average and on top of that he doesn't get injured a 100 times a year.

[ReubenJRD]

With the way he put Toronto on the map, and really was the face of the franchise and is the reason why we are still standing now. He deserves one, but his attitude and bad decision making prevents it from happening.

Vince Carter was an electrifying player, fun to watch, and was extremely hard to guard in his prime.... Would I forgive him? Depends. Would I give him a standing ovation? Yeah.

[Apollo]

One could argue that had the draft day trade not occurred the Raptors would have had a duo of McGrady and Jamison. Jamison, being the complimentary player he is, would not have threatened T-Mac for the spotlight and so T-Mac might have stayed long term; I'm not saying that's good or bad now in hindsight. Carter gets credit for being the first real recognized star to wear a Raptors jersey but if he never came along someone else would have. Carter did not put the Raptors on the map. The management, who put out strong rosters, put the Raptors on the map. Carter gets too much credit. Somebody had to draft him and somebody had top put the right guys around him to push him to be great at the time. It's not a coincidence that he reached his pinnacle at a young age. It correlates directly with the entrance of Charles Oakley, aka. the true leader of the playoff squad the wowed the league for a millisecond. Once guys like Oak and YYD exited Carter was not the same player. Not even playing with J-Kidd in his prime was he able to recapture his peak.

It would seem Toronto GM's only get recognition when things go wrong.

[ReubenJRD]

One could argue that had the draft day trade not occurred the Raptors would have had a duo of McGrady and Jamison. Jamison, being the complimentary player he is, would not have threatened T-Mac for the spotlight and so T-Mac might have stayed long term; I'm not saying that's good or bad now in hindsight. Carter gets credit for being the first real recognized star to wear a Raptors jersey but if he never came along someone else would have. Carter did not put the Raptors on the map. The management, who put out strong rosters, put the Raptors on the map. Carter gets too much credit. Somebody had to draft him and somebody had top put the right guys around him to push him to be great at the time. It's not a coincidence that he reached his pinnacle at a young age. It correlates directly with the entrance of Charles Oakley, aka. the true leader of the playoff squad the wowed the league for a millisecond. Once guys like Oak and YYD exited Carter was not the same player. Not even playing with J-Kidd in his prime was he able to recapture his peak. It would seem Toronto GM's only get recognition when things go wrong.

Doesn't take away the fact that Vince Carter was a great player in that time, and was the one being watched to perform for this team.

The GMs created the team, but they don't play the games.

[Apollo]

I never took away anything. I gave something to you. That something was the idea that there was a lot more attributing to Carter's success in Toronto than his slam dunks and successful off balanced jumpers.

Remembering his success doesn't reduce the impact of how poorly he conducted himself and it doesn't right wrongs which he doesn't even recognize. Being good at basketball doesn't negate what is right.

[IROR]

I despised VC as much as anybody when he left, and loved him as much as anybody when he was here. Lately, with the OTR interview with T Mac (still hate T Mac) and this one here...I gotta say he has come along way from being the kid who scorned the whole country. He seems to realize that he made some bad choices. So if he would embrace a return to Toronto, and take on whatever role Casey gave him, the fans should embrace that too--he's the greatest Raptor ever and his jersey should hang in the rafters for what he did to put the Raps on the map, the franchise may have gone the way of the Grizzlies if we took Antawn Jameson instead...

Still love to hate him, but respect the man for his comments lately...would love to see #15 again in T.O.