Everything Wince

[Matt52]

I'm not a huge Carter fan (like any Raptors fan is), but some of those reasons are just terrible.
6) Injuries. I'm supposed to hate the guy because he got hurt? He didn't Paul Pierce it. He legitimately got injured and it sucked for him as much as it did for anyone else.
5) The Mo Pete slap. clearly Carter meant nothing bad by it and it was more about a ref that looked their way at the wrong time than it was about any real mallice. Carter even tried to smooth things over with the ref right after it happened.
4) Going to his graduation. Carter went to celebrate a huge accomplishment. When my kids look up to pro athletes, I hope they look up to one like Vince that took their education seriously and fully appreciated the opportunity that they were given in College. He was proud to have graduated and he had every right to be. Somehow jaunting down to NC and back made him miss that last shot of the game? BS. I still remember Oakley turning the ball over in the first half on one of his patented behind the back passes with a 100% turnover rate. The sixers got an easy basket on the resulting break-away. At the time, I told my friends "if they lose this game by a single point, I'm blaming Oakley because he should damn well know better by now than to pull that shit (even though he did it at least once a game). So if you want to blame somebody for the one-point loss, blame Charles Oakley. Or better yet, don't blame anybody. Oakley was great otherwise, and that team was generally solid, and they lost by a single point in game seven to another really good team. Boo hoo.
3) Making fun of Raptors fans for chanting MVP about CB. He was damn right. Chris Bosh was great, still is very good. But we knew then as we know now that there are a good number of players in the league that are way better.
2) The trade. Two things here: not Carter's fault that we got squat on the trade, though the fact that he publically wanted out surely didn't help leverage a good deal. But the video includes him mentioning the issues with team management in Toronto at the time, and he's right. It was a mess for a few years there and I'd be frustrated too if I were him.

The other items are all pretty fair (though I don't really care about the Vince's mom one either).

Your opinion, and I respect that, above but here is my take:

6) Injuries - he milked them. Look at the miracle 'recovery' in NJ. Was it the 'fresh' New Jersey air? Was it the water? He played half-assed and used injuries as an excuse. He couldn't handle pain or discomfort. He had a poor work ethic and dedication to his craft as is evidenced by physical progression (or lack thereof) throughout his career. This is only my opinion from watching the numerous times he hit the floor like shrapnel from a grenade hit him. He is a joke around the league as well - plenty of commentators and players have poked at his antics over the years.

5) To slap him in the face to begin with is an extreme d!ck move - EXTREME. You don't slap someone in the face who you respect under any circumstances. I was at a party in my younger days (mid-20's) and a guy was being funny and hit me with a spatula very gently on the cheek. I'm not sure if you are a wrestling fan but back in the day I was. I picked the guy up and dropped him on his back (picture Diesel/Kevin Nash sidewalk slam but without the throw off the ropes). Was it cool on my part? Looking back, no, but I was absolutely livid at the time. No one else at the party really had a problem with my reaction either because it was a d!ck move on his part. He left a short time after and I heard threw the grapevine he had a monster bruise on his side from his lat through his hip down to his quad. Proper thing I say. I'd probably have a different reaction today - age, kids, less booze certainly tames a fellow.

4) Did Carter graduate with his class? No. He left for the NBA early. Does UNC offer graduations at other times during the year? The 2 universities I attended had a spring and fall convocation - not just spring. Could a superstar like him who donates obscene amounts make arrangements to graduate with another class in the fall? I don't see why not unless I am missing something. Again, it is not like he went to school for 4 years with the people he graduated with and had numerous memories and experiences with. Again just my opinion but there were ways around this situation whereby he did not alienate his coaches, teammates, and Raptor fans (both paying and not). Those ways would have required patience and a delay of gratification on his part but at $12M per year I think that is a reasonable request.

3) Fans always chant M-V-P for a team's top player - especially through the end of the season. I agree Bosh is not an MVP calibre player.

2) The lack of return on the trade is without question Carter's fault. It is through his actions - and other players - that the league brought in a policy to fine players, and even their agents, who use the media to demand a trade.

Trade demands only became actionable offenses after the 2004-'05 season. Discomfited by the high-profile ultimatums of Vince Carter, Baron Davis, Shaquille O'Neal, Tracy McGrady and Shareef Abdur-Rahim, NBA officials told the players union during talks for the 2005 Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) that such demands would henceforth fall under Rule 35, a player misconduct provision in the league constitution. Public trade demands are now considered "statements detrimental to the NBA" and fines of $50,000 or less for off-court behavior cannot be appealed through a grievance arbitrator.

The first player to get slapped with a trade-demand fine was Ron Artest, who was then an Indiana Pacer. Artest's request came early in the 2005-'06 campaign, and cost him $25,000. For the next four years, the ban was not invoked. Evidently, the public trade demands of at least five players were deemed "less than detrimental":

"I would like to be traded, yeah. Tough as it is to come to that conclusion there's no other alternative, you know... At this point I'll go play on Pluto." - Kobe Bryant, March 2007

"I'm tired of hearing my name in trades. I love my fans in Phoenix, but I think it's time for me to move on." - Shawn Marion, September, 2007

"We tried to make this work. We've found out it doesn't. It's time or us all to move on." - Jason Kidd, January, 2008

"I want to be moved. I want to be moved. I want to be moved. I want to be traded." -- Mickael Pietrus, February, 2008

"I didn't want to play for (Golden State Warriors executive Chris) Mullin. I told him that this summer. I reiterated that again to Mully. I've told him twice since training camp has started that I don't want to be here." - Al Harrington, October, 2008

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arn-te..._b_442385.html

Not only did Carter lower his trade value through words but also through actions. Check his stats from that 2004-2005 season:

20 games
30.4 minutes per game
15.8 points
.411 fg
.322 3pt
.694 ft (3.6 attempts)
3.3 rebounds
3.0 assists
0.8 blocks
1.3 steals

Now look at New Jersey:

57 games
38.9 minutes
27.5 points
.462 fg
.425 3pt
.817 ft (6.8 attemtps)
5.9 rebounds
4.7 assists
0.6 block
1.5 steal

One could make arguments that he was playing on a better team and he had Jason Kidd setting him up and that is fine - personally I say bullsh!t but whatever. The one area I do not think anyone could argue is the free throw. Both the attempts and the percentage from Toronto to New Jersey is absolutely ridiculous.

[akashsingh]

Your opinion, and I respect that, above but here is my take:

6) Injuries - he milked them. Look at the miracle 'recovery' in NJ. Was it the 'fresh' New Jersey air? Was it the water? He played half-assed and used injuries as an excuse. He couldn't handle pain or discomfort. He had a poor work ethic and dedication to his craft as is evidenced by physical progression (or lack thereof) throughout his career. This is only my opinion from watching the numerous times he hit the floor like shrapnel from a grenade hit him. He is a joke around the league as well - plenty of commentators and players have poked at his antics over the years.

5) To slap him in the face to begin with is an extreme d!ck move - EXTREME. You don't slap someone in the face who you respect under any circumstances. I was at a party in my younger days (mid-20's) and a guy was being funny and hit me with a spatula very gently on the cheek. I'm not sure if you are a wrestling fan but back in the day I was. I picked the guy up and dropped him on his back (picture Diesel/Kevin Nash sidewalk slam but without the throw off the ropes). Was it cool on my part? Looking back, no, but I was absolutely livid at the time. No one else at the party really had a problem with my reaction either because it was a d!ck move on his part. He left a short time after and I heard threw the grapevine he had a monster bruise on his side from his lat through his hip down to his quad. Proper thing I say. I'd probably have a different reaction today - age, kids, less booze certainly tames a fellow.

4) Did Carter graduate with his class? No. He left for the NBA early. Does UNC offer graduations at other times during the year? The 2 universities I attended had a spring and fall convocation - not just spring. Could a superstar like him who donates obscene amounts make arrangements to graduate with another class in the fall? I don't see why not unless I am missing something. Again, it is not like he went to school for 4 years with the people he graduated with and had numerous memories and experiences with. Again just my opinion but there were ways around this situation whereby he did not alienate his coaches, teammates, and Raptor fans (both paying and not). Those ways would have required patience and a delay of gratification on his part but at $12M per year I think that is a reasonable request.

3) Fans always chant M-V-P for a team's top player - especially through the end of the season. I agree Bosh is not an MVP calibre player.

2) The lack of return on the trade is without question Carter's fault. It is through his actions - and other players - that the league brought in a policy to fine players, and even their agents, who use the media to demand a trade.


Not only did Carter lower his trade value through words but also through actions. Check his stats from that 2004-2005 season:

20 games
30.4 minutes per game
15.8 points
.411 fg
.322 3pt
.694 ft (3.6 attempts)
3.3 rebounds
3.0 assists
0.8 blocks
1.3 steals

Now look at New Jersey:

57 games
38.9 minutes
27.5 points
.462 fg
.425 3pt
.817 ft (6.8 attemtps)
5.9 rebounds
4.7 assists
0.6 block
1.5 steal

One could make arguments that he was playing on a better team and he had Jason Kidd setting him up and that is fine - personally I say bullsh!t but whatever. The one area I do not think anyone could argue is the free throw. Both the attempts and the percentage from Toronto to New Jersey is absolutely ridiculous.

carter did more for toronto and the raptors organization than you ever will talking smack from your keyboard. Did he tarnish his reputation by giving up at the end? Of course he did, and the hate would've been understandable if it lasted for a year or two.

But it takes a certain type of maturity (that you clearly do not have), to respect what he did for the community and the franchise and in the end forgive him. He doubled the value of the franchise for goodness sakes. What the hell have you done matt?

[NoPropsneeded]

Funny thing is if he stayed, him and bosh would have been a monstrous duo with Jose at the point. Well now both of their reputations are down the drain, Carter is an old man playing for a dallas team that got swept and Bosh is a 3rd wheel on a championship contender

[Matt52]

carter did more for toronto and the raptors organization than you ever will talking smack from your keyboard. Did he tarnish his reputation by giving up at the end? Of course he did, and the hate would've been understandable if it lasted for a year or two.

But it takes a certain type of maturity (that you clearly do not have), to respect what he did for the community and the franchise and in the end forgive him. He doubled the value of the franchise for goodness sakes. What the hell have you done matt?

I'm not sure if you are aware but this is a FAN site where people share OPINIONS on the Toronto Raptors. big red gave his opinion and I totally respect where he came from. I gave my opinion. This is called DISCUSSION. At no point did I make any reference to big red in a derogatory manner. I did not personally attack him. I did not intend to imply his opinion was any less valid than my own. My intention was to give the opposite side, from my perspective, of the points he raised. That is what we do here.

As to your post it is not worth the time or effort. If you had attacked another poster with that message I (or another admin/mod) would have certainly sent you a private message to chill out. If you have an issue with any particular opinion, fact, or stat I raised, please feel free to bring it to my attention. The above reply might be better suited to one of the many unmoderated Raptor forums found online.

[Apollo]

If the poster presents a clear, respectful, well thought out post accompanied by examples and you take offense to it because it's counter to your opinion then that my friends is YOUR problem. Matt made good points.

You know you're on the losing end when all you have left is to resort to attacking the person instead of the points the person made.

[KingRaptors]

Eff Vince Carter... worst feeling as a Raptor fan was seeing this douche comeback every year teasing us with his buzzer beaters and stuff, well screw him... I don't ever want to see his jersey in the ACC.

If I could burn a VC jersey... I'd do it again.

[Apollo]

Carter didn't do enough to have his jersey retired. I believe inferior teams shouldn't have inferior criteria for such great honors as that. If Carter played that time as a Knick or a Celtic would they look to retire his jersey when he retires? If you answer no then you have your answer on should his jersey ever be retired in Toronto. In 30 years it would look silly hanging there in my opinion because odds alone pretty much guarantee the Raptors find a true franchise guy who makes a long term positive impact worthy of having a such an honor. Then at that point, having Carter's jersey next to that player devalues the honor for that player. Jersey retirement is the biggest honor a player can get outside a place in the hall and that just happens to be an honor Carter will never see as well. Had Carter not bailed on the team I would be all for him getting such an honor but he didn't play here long enough and the way he left was horrible.

[joey_hesketh]

Jersey retirement is the biggest honor a player can get outside a place in the hall and that just happens to be an honor Carter will never see as well.

I remember talking about Vince in the Hall of Fame not too long ago, and finding this article from Slam:

According to ArizonaCentral.com, of the 36 previous players who have reached the 20,000-point milestone, only 10 are not in the Hall of Fame and eight of those are either active or not eligible for induction yet. Only Mitch Richmond (20,497) and Tom Chambers (20,049), the next two ahead of Carter (20,020), are eligible and have not been inducted. Personally, I think Carter will end his career as a Hall-of-Famer. If he plays a couple of more years, he could surpass guys like Larry Bird, Elgin Baylor and Charle Barkley on the all-time scoring list. Couple that with the fact that he is generally considered to be the most prolific dunker in the history of the game, and I think that puts him over the top even if he never wins a championship. And also remember that the Basketball Hall of Fame takes into consideration a player’s entire body of work — pro and college. Even though Carter never won a national title in college, he did lead North Carolina to two Final Fours and was one of the most notable college basketball players of his era. For this reason, I would vote Vince Carter into the Hall of Fame.
Source

Just some food for thought.

[BallaBalla]

Honestly...all we need is one other guy who does something for this franchise besides win a dunk contest and VC will be hated forever. The only reason why we still entertain these discussions about him is because we have no one else who we can compare him to, and have had no success in our short history.

Maybe JV, our draft pick this year, maybe we sign Nash and win a playoff series (however unlikely), and we will move on. It will only take one good stretch for Vince to be forever considered a villain with no discussion needed.

[Nilanka]

I'm indifferent about Carter. I don't react either way when he's in town. I was a huge fan at the height of his career, and I hated his guts shortly after the trade. But it's been so long now, that I'm totally numb to anything Carter-related.

But to answer the OP, there's no way in hell Carter ever receives a standing ovation in Toronto. None whatsoever. Feel free to print this post and paste it on the fridge to refer back to during Carter's swan song. No chance that Carter is ever forgiven by the masses.

[torch19]

Those two buzzer beaters at ACC really hurt. I think those shots, coupled with the Raptors losing to the Nets in the playoffs (when we finally won the Atlantic Division banner), solidifies Vince Carter as Toronto's public enemy #1.

Bosh, I can live with. T-Mac as well. But Vince ..... no

It's like having the sexiest girlfriend in the world, perfect in every way for the first few years of the relationship, only to witness the disinterest build-up. Soon enough, you are forced to let her go. And when you seemingly had the "onions" to face reality and move on, she sends you a tape of her screwing another man in your bed ... 3 times.

And you were never the same again.

[RPT23]

I'm a big Carter fan, turned hater since he left. He was a rarity with the gift to become a great player had he applied himself properly while he was here. But, I don't like holding grudges, especially since he hasn't really affected me in any way other than being a fan of his. The Raptors still lived albeit sucking and playing below average until 2006 (but even that year will never be as hyped as beating the hated Knicks in a 5 game playoff series). I respect all opinions as to why he would/should never receive a standing ovation but I'd be giving him a golf clap. LOL. For the very fact that he did say he loved Toronto and wanted the very best for this city (at that time) despite his questionable actions leading to his departure. Whether he meant it or not, I guess we'll never really know but the fact that he's putting it out there in print means something to me. Show Toronto some love!

[your mom]

I really do hope that Toronto can get over the bullshit from a DECADE ago and appreciate Vince for what he was: a franchise player and game changer that put this city on the map and repped hard from day one.

I'm a firm believer that if not for Vince's heroics in the early 2k's, this team would be the San Jose/Seattle/OKC Raptors by now. Please just respect what the man did and give him the standing ovation that is deserved.

[Matt52]

I really do hope that Toronto can get over the bullshit from a DECADE ago and appreciate Vince for what he was: a franchise player and game changer that put this city on the map and repped hard from day one.

I'm a firm believer that if not for Vince's heroics in the early 2k's, this team would be the San Jose/Seattle/OKC Raptors by now. Please just respect what the man did and give him the standing ovation that is deserved.

A team that has consistently been above average in attendance, franchise value, and revenue is not getting moved.

A team that has consistently been above average in attendance, franchise, value, and revenue in the 8 years since Carter left is not getting moved and made the playoffs just twice in that time frame is not getting moved.

Saying that Carter kept the franchise in Toronto is akin to saying the world would be over had the Soviet Union not collapsed. Both are unknowns and could be considered ludicrous.

[RPT23]

A team that has consistently been above average in attendance, franchise value, and revenue is not getting moved.

A team that has consistently been above average in attendance, franchise, value, and revenue in the 8 years since Carter left is not getting moved and made the playoffs just twice in that time frame is not getting moved.

Saying that Carter kept the franchise in Toronto is akin to saying the world would be over had the Soviet Union not collapsed. Both are unknowns and could be considered ludicrous.

I agree with what you said, but in saying that, "What if" Vince Carter played for the Vancouver Grizzlies instead? "What if" he brought his airial game to Van-city with all the flashy dunks, swagger dunks, and Tomahawk jams? Personally, I would think that the interest would certainly have brought up the investors into thinking, "Hey, we got something good here, let's try to market the #$%& out of this guy!" Of course, this is a "what if" scenario and there is certianly an unknown that will forever be unanswered. But my point (and perhaps some of the general thought that the people here who may agree) is that Vince Carter is/was an impact player and certainly would have improved the Grizzlies future and in some form or another should be appreciated for 'putting Vancouver on the map'.

Again, you might think that Seattle had a superstar in the making, impact type of player in Durant (as a rookie) but he was never in the same "vince"inty as Carter himself (at least that's what I think) in the first 3 years.

[Matt52]

I agree with what you said, but in saying that, "What if" Vince Carter played for the Vancouver Grizzlies instead? "What if" he brought his airial game to Van-city with all the flashy dunks, swagger dunks, and Tomahawk jams? Personally, I would think that the interest would certainly have brought up the investors into thinking, "Hey, we got something good here, let's try to market the #$%& out of this guy!" Of course, this is a "what if" scenario and there is certianly an unknown that will forever be unanswered. But my point (and perhaps some of the general thought that the people here who may agree) is that Vince Carter is/was an impact player and certainly would have improved the Grizzlies future and in some form or another should be appreciated for 'putting Vancouver on the map'.

Again, you might think that Seattle had a superstar in the making, impact type of player in Durant (as a rookie) but he was never in the same "vince"inty as Carter himself (at least that's what I think) in the first 3 years.

It is a possibility.

I think the bigger what ifs in Vancouver would have been: 1) what if Stu Jackson was never hired, and 2) what if Big Country was never drafted.

But again, these are things we will never know.

I respect the opinions on Carter and his influence on Toronto, I just don't agree. Unfortunately, I"m not aware of anyway for one side to disprove the other without going Back to the Future.

[joey_hesketh]

Unfortunately, I"m not aware of anyway for one side to disprove the other without going Back to the Future.

Then its settled ... Marty, Get to the DeLorean!

[Bendit]

I really do hope that Toronto can get over the bullshit from a DECADE ago and appreciate Vince for what he was: a franchise player and game changer that put this city on the map and repped hard from day one.

I'm a firm believer that if not for Vince's heroics in the early 2k's, this team would be the San Jose/Seattle/OKC Raptors by now. Please just respect what the man did and give him the standing ovation that is deserved.

Sorry...you seem to be basing your plea on just half the professional athlete. I suppose a large majority of such are pretty narcissistic animals but VC was in an another gear. No doubt he was talented but what does that have to do with being a jerk to the franchise and setting it back thru his actions and forced departure by at least 5 years if not still being felt. It's the jerk thing you seem to not consider relevant at all.

Another poster above made the case about his hall of fame credentials...a question then...how should we feel about him going in with a Raptors jersey? And would he choose it ?.

I say "No" to both. Might reconsider if he apologizes and recognizes his douche ways at the time.

[your mom]

Sorry...you seem to be basing your plea on just half the professional athlete. I suppose a large majority of such are pretty narcissistic animals but VC was in an another gear. No doubt he was talented but what does that have to do with being a jerk to the franchise and setting it back thru his actions and forced departure by at least 5 years if not still being felt. It's the jerk thing you seem to not consider relevant at all.

Another poster above made the case about his hall of fame credentials...a question then...how should we feel about him going in with a Raptors jersey? And would he choose it ?.

I say "No" to both. Might reconsider if he apologizes and recognizes his douche ways at the time.

If the raptors had done what they should have done (find out what Vince wanted, realize it wasnt going to happen, then quietly find a suitor) instead of getting rid of him for pennies on the dollar, this franchise wouldnt have been put back the 5+ years that it has.

If we drafted who we should have and not guys like Rafael Arujao, we'd be in a better spot.

Don't blame Carter for the mistakes of a poorly managed franchise. He still should get the ovation for what he has done.

[your mom]

A team that has consistently been above average in attendance, franchise value, and revenue is not getting moved.

A team that has consistently been above average in attendance, franchise, value, and revenue in the 8 years since Carter left is not getting moved and made the playoffs just twice in that time frame is not getting moved.

Saying that Carter kept the franchise in Toronto is akin to saying the world would be over had the Soviet Union not collapsed. Both are unknowns and could be considered ludicrous.

I think this whole thread is an unknown, but during our darkest ages after VC left there's no question somebody had thoughts of moving the franchise, and killing the International team idea with the Raps and Grizz.

Regardless of the what ifs, Carter needs to be appreciated and we need to get over what happened. He's done more for the Raps than any player in history, and that deserves a standing O.