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Thread: Do u ever watch IND wistfully? Does IND success change Raps prospects for you? (23)

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    The player I fret about most is Paul George who was picked a couple before ED. That was the type of wing we all hope we could draft...and I do believe BC had his eyes on him...but...sigh.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    I still think Ed is going to be solid. Never claimed he'd be a star but i think a great bench player borderline starter is what he'll be. We'll see what an actual offseason/training camp/same system will do for him. He showed some real game at the end of the season when he was getting burn.

    As for Demar my thing with him is how he seems to think he's exponentially better than he actually is. His "all i need to work on is defense" comments REALLY irked me. There's half a dozen things on offense you still need to work on, butthead. Sigh.

    Bayless is functionally retarded so the best we can hope for is he lives to about 30
    Agreed. I think next season will be telling for Davis and his future with the team, assuming he isn't traded first!

    Bayless is just shite that should be allowed to walk for nothing.

    DeRozan is decent, but a 3rd year SG who is ineffective/inconsistent penetrating off the dribble, shoots 20-25% from 3pt range, is below average on defense and completely disappears for long stretches of games, is hardly a pillar of the foundation for a playoff team to build upon. I like him, but would be happy to see him traded for any of Gay, Batum or Mayo (S&T for the last two).

    As for Granger and AI, I just pretend they don't exist. Otherwise Hoffa's ghost would haunt my dreams. One of the reasons I don't want Weems to re-sign for next season is because of how much he looks like the Graham's long-lost triplet! *shudders*

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    The player I fret about most is Paul George who was picked a couple before ED. That was the type of wing we all hope we could draft...and I do believe BC had his eyes on him...but...sigh.
    That raises an interesting thought (at least to me):

    Many, myself included, have talked about the dreaded purgatory of not good enough to draft a superstar but not bad enough to make the playoffs or, if they do, go deep. In a nutshell that was the Pacers for years. Looking at their roster we see (age in parenthesis):

    Granger (29) picked 17
    Barbosa (29) picked 28
    Collison (24) picked 21
    Hibbert (25) picked 17
    Hill (26) picked 26
    George (22) picked 10
    Hansbrough (26) picked 13
    West (31) picked 18th (by NOH) and signed as a free agent this year.



    Does this change anyone's feelings about the current situation with Toronto? I know there was a lot animosity recently about the Raptors dropping to the 8th overall pick versus the top 5 that so many, myself included, thought was a given.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this before, but the Pacers coach looks like Adnan Virke (that dude from the Score). Whatever happened to him ?
    “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

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  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    yeah i was bummed originally, but the fact is there's great players everywhere to be had.
    @jerboat

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote torch19 wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this before, but the Pacers coach looks like Adnan Virke (that dude from the Score). Whatever happened to him ?
    Oh I dont know if I agree with the comp. AV was also a bit of a shrimp...always looked funny moderating at the side of Leo & Sherman. He went off to ESPN. Havent seen him since.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That raises an interesting thought (at least to me):

    Many, myself included, have talked about the dreaded purgatory of not good enough to draft a superstar but not bad enough to make the playoffs or, if they do, go deep. In a nutshell that was the Pacers for years. Looking at their roster we see (age in parenthesis):

    Granger (29) picked 17
    Barbosa (29) picked 28
    Collison (24) picked 21
    Hibbert (25) picked 17
    Hill (26) picked 26
    George (22) picked 10
    Hansbrough (26) picked 13
    West (31) picked 18th (by NOH) and signed as a free agent this year.



    Does this change anyone's feelings about the current situation with Toronto? I know there was a lot animosity recently about the Raptors dropping to the 8th overall pick versus the top 5 that so many, myself included, thought was a given.
    It would if Indy had drafted all those players, but most of them were acquired in trades. You might get lucky once or twice drafting mid-1st round, but I seriously doubt a legitimate contending team can be built by drafting in that mid range year after year. I don't think anybody ever claimed that there are never good players (especially 2nd unit rotation/role players) to be had, it's just unlikely for the same team to consistenty acquire playoff caliber talent without picking high in the lottery (or using free agency and/or trades - which is what Indy has done).

  8. #28
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I have to say, Indiana is my favorite team in the playoffs. I'm rooting for them. What they're doing is very impressive and further illustrates the power of TEAM over stars. Last year the Mavs illustrated in the finals. I'm very glad this year the Heat are getting another taste of that, this time almost right out of the gate.

  9. #29
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I have to say, Indiana is my favorite team in the playoffs. I'm rooting for them. What they're doing is very impressive and further illustrates the power of TEAM over stars. Last year the Mavs illustrated in the finals. I'm very glad this year the Heat are getting another taste of that, this time almost right out of the gate.
    Good point. The Indy-Miami series is going a long way to show that a well balanced team with talent/contribution from top-to-bottom of the 9/10 man rotation can have success, even without a superstar. Whereas Miami (and LBJ previously in Cleveland) are illustrating that surrounding a superstar or two with average/below-average players might very well have a ceiling to limit the success to the regular season. Even Jordan was surrounded by above average teammates (Pippen) and very effective rotation/role players (Grant/Rodman for rebounding, Paxson/Kerr for 3pt shooting, Kukoc for 6th man sparkplug scoring off the bench).

    I would be happy to watch the Raptors follow Indy's recipe for success. If they happen to land a star, via the draft, free agency or trade, so be it... just don't lose site of the goal to build a solid, well rounded team full of players who know & embrace their job/role.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That raises an interesting thought (at least to me):

    Many, myself included, have talked about the dreaded purgatory of not good enough to draft a superstar but not bad enough to make the playoffs or, if they do, go deep. In a nutshell that was the Pacers for years. Looking at their roster we see (age in parenthesis):

    Granger (29) picked 17
    Barbosa (29) picked 28
    Collison (24) picked 21
    Hibbert (25) picked 17
    Hill (26) picked 26
    George (22) picked 10
    Hansbrough (26) picked 13
    West (31) picked 18th (by NOH) and signed as a free agent this year.



    Does this change anyone's feelings about the current situation with Toronto? I know there was a lot animosity recently about the Raptors dropping to the 8th overall pick versus the top 5 that so many, myself included, thought was a given.
    The angst arises more so I think out of frustration that it was a terrible year endured and to come out 8th when we could have been 4th with a couple of more losses...and in such a good draft. We now have to hope for someone to make a mistake or to make an equivalent type choice as you noted at 8th. I guess it can be done and paradoxically there is less pressure choosing there than at 3-4-5 eg. You expect a starter there than lower. I am hoping for the balls to come thru. George though came out firing day 1 it seems. You just knew he would be a stud. And defensive minded too as well as from a lesser school. I dont see anyone close to him at 8 right now. Pfffttt.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    I think it's the ONLY choice that Toronto has really. With out the ability to attract star players the best we can do is go the route of Indiana and put together a team of good players in the hopes that sum are greater than the parts).

    The problem with this as can be seen in the Dallas example (though Dirk is a star) is that it's hard to keep championsip teams made up of good players together for long periods. When their contracts come up they generally can get more money elsewhere.

    Whereas if you pay the super stars and keep surrounding them with decent parts ala San Antonio, Los Angeles, Boston, they you have a shot at longevity.

    The best think that can happen to Indiana is that they don't win a championship or Hibbert's going to be looking for more money than he's worth. Ditto for David West who is on a one year contract I think.

    I'll be really impressed if OKC can sign Harden & Ibaka and keep that core in tact.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    My point is that teams like Indiana and Toronto have no choice but to go the route of assembling a bunch of good to decent players. The life span of a good team assembled in such a fashion is relatively short so you can expect Indiana to be a bottom dweller in a couple of years and possibly Toronto as well once we reach their level.

    Which is why the OKC blue print of drafting high picks in hopes that one or two are stars is imo the best method for success and longevity for a team that struggles to attract star power.

  13. #33
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    My point is that teams like Indiana and Toronto have no choice but to go the route of assembling a bunch of good to decent players. The life span of a good team assembled in such a fashion is relatively short so you can expect Indiana to be a bottom dweller in a couple of years and possibly Toronto as well once we reach their level.

    Which is why the OKC blue print of drafting high picks in hopes that one or two are stars is imo the best method for success and longevity for a team that struggles to attract star power.
    And you just have to hope that the #1 homegrown (via high draft pick) star decides to stay long-term, instead of bolting for greener pastures!

    It seems that Charlotte is following this path, per the news that their GM (Cho, formerly of Portland) asked ownership during his interview whether or not they were willing to take a further step back, in order to take two meaningful steps forward.... the result was a record setting bad year, but top-3 pick (25% chance at #1 pick) as a result. Bad this year and anti-tankers would claim its bad for the sport/league, but definitely in Carlotte's long-term best interest.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    This is the first time the Pacers have been over 500 since 2004-05. I guess they've been slightly better than the atrocious Raptors over that period (maybe) but let's calm down about how great the Pacers are.

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    that's how good rising teams work, usually.
    @jerboat

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    that's how good rising teams work, usually.
    Yeah, but what's the point here? Whatever route you go to respectability takes years. The Thunder approach takes years and same with the Pacers. Is the point that this is how Toronto should look to build? I don't see how it's any safer or predictable than the Thunder route, plus, isn't this basically what Colangelo already did from 2006-2010? So, we want him to do it again? I don't get it.

    Good for Indiana. They found lightning in a bottle and played a Howard-less Magic and are up early in a series against a Bosh-less Heat squad. Hands up whoever thinks this team is a long-term contender in the East?

  17. #37
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Yeah, but what's the point here? Whatever route you go to respectability takes years. The Thunder approach takes years and same with the Pacers. Is the point that this is how Toronto should look to build? I don't see how it's any safer or predictable than the Thunder route, plus, isn't this basically what Colangelo already did from 2006-2010? So, we want him to do it again? I don't get it.

    Good for Indiana. They found lightning in a bottle and played a Howard-less Magic and are up early in a series against a Bosh-less Heat squad. Hands up whoever thinks this team is a long-term contender in the East?
    I don't think anybody said Indy was the perfect team, but rather they are building the same way the champion pistons were built in the early 2000s, as a solid team without that single superstar type player. The Raptors tried marketing Bosh as a superstar to build around and look where that took us? The difference between BC during the Bosh years and the current BC, is that the current BC is truly building a good team, adding the best pieces he can. Obviously drafting/signing/trading for a superstar would help, but he's not going to market a false-supestar (ie: you don't hear him referring to Bargnani or DeRozan or even Valanciunas the way he used to talk about Bosh) and not going to try for a quick all-or-nothing fix. He is building a solid team, constrantly improving and adding assets, either to develop or use in trade. I like the building process.

  18. #38
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    Yeah I wouldn't say this is what BC did in the last 4 years, more like two.

    Indiana is in a really good spot financially too. Barbosa is coming off the books next year and Granger is totally expendable because of George. And West's deal is only two years. They'll be good for a while.
    Last edited by Employee; Fri May 18th, 2012 at 05:13 PM. Reason: typio
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  19. #39
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That raises an interesting thought (at least to me):

    Many, myself included, have talked about the dreaded purgatory of not good enough to draft a superstar but not bad enough to make the playoffs or, if they do, go deep. In a nutshell that was the Pacers for years. Looking at their roster we see (age in parenthesis):

    Granger (29) picked 17
    Barbosa (29) picked 28
    Collison (24) picked 21
    Hibbert (25) picked 17
    Hill (26) picked 26
    George (22) picked 10
    Hansbrough (26) picked 13
    West (31) picked 18th (by NOH) and signed as a free agent this year.



    Does this change anyone's feelings about the current situation with Toronto? I know there was a lot animosity recently about the Raptors dropping to the 8th overall pick versus the top 5 that so many, myself included, thought was a given.
    Just before reading this I posted in the "What do you think of BC's drafting" thread a list of guys coming out of the second round who had notable (or all-star appearance) careers. Ginobli is a great example.

  20. #40
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    I strongly dislike teams that stunk right along with the raptors, and are now having mediocre success. Why should they be good while we still suck?LOL. So that would include those damn pacers (along with the bulls,knicks,etc..) I hope miami wins.

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