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Bryan Coangelo's Performance Review

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  • #16
    The Raptors have not been tanking. Tanking is all about trying to lose to increase draft odds.

    planetmars wrote: View Post
    For those that are interested, here is a list of all transactions made by Bryan (including his tenure in Phoenix):
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...olanbr99x.html

    He did make some questionable moves in Phoenix as well (for example giving Gortat to Orlando for a bag of balls)... but his draft history consistently appears to be stellar.
    Gortat was the third last pick of the second round. He never played a game in Phoenix prior to signing as a free agent a couple years ago. Maybe your expectations on that move aren't fair?

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    • #17
      "Losing with a purpose", "tanking".....same difference.

      When management makes the decision that wins are not important, that's tanking in my books.

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      • #18
        Apollo wrote: View Post
        Gortat was the third last pick of the second round. He never played a game in Phoenix prior to signing as a free agent a couple years ago. Maybe your expectations on that move aren't fair?
        I wasn't paying attention to Phoenix at that time, so you are correct. It could have been a move to just add a roster spot for a future trade or something.

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        • #19
          Nilanka wrote: View Post
          "Losing with a purpose", "tanking".....same difference.

          When management makes the decision that wins are not important, that's tanking in my books.
          You don't know that. I don't think winning every game this season was the top priority but there is a big difference between blowing your cap asset when you're not ready and intentionally trying to lose. If Colangelo went out and signed free agents prior to this season it would have made no sense. You don't sign big deals prior to filling out your core. He was missing two key pieces to his core, one of which remains a complete unknown until draft night. I did not watch one game this season where I sat back and thought "these guys look like they're trying to lose". The Raptors finished eight last but one could argue that had Bargnani not gotten hurt they would have been competing for 8th seed for most of the season. Doesn't sound like a team that set itself up to intentionally throw the season to me.

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          • #20
            Tanking has been discussed many times here, and it appears that each person has a different definition.

            I completely agree with you that blowing cap space would've been pointless last year. So if Colangelo wasn't assembling a team capable of competing for a playoff berth, what was he doing instead? Hoping for internal development, and a high draft pick, while maintaining financial flexibility. I have no problem referring to this as tanking.

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            • #21
              The Raptors were competitive enough to contend for 8th seed had Bargnani stayed healthy.

              This was not tanking. Tanking means intentionally losing games. I do have a problem with calling it tanking because tanking means a lack of integrity and I feel Colangelo's integrity is intact.

              A team cap dumping it's talent to try in win the lottery(Bobcats, ie: tanking) is as bad as a boxer taking a dive in a championship title bout in my opinion.

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              • #22
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                The Raptors were competitive enough to contend for 8th seed had Bargnani stayed healthy.

                This was not tanking. Tanking means intentionally losing games. I do have a problem with calling it tanking because tanking means a lack of integrity and I feel Colangelo's integrity is intact.
                Like I eluded to in my previous post, your definition differs from mine.

                As for contending for the 8th seed, I don't think any of us (including Colangelo) predicted Bargnani's level of play pre-injury. In other words, I highly doubt Colangelo had visions of the 8th seed before the season started (i.e. when he was assembling a roster consisting of Butler, Magloire, Forbes, Gray and Carter).

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                • #23
                  I disagree with you. There is no way you can know that. Countering that idea, there was no way for Colangelo to know DeRozan would struggle like he did. Teams that tank cut talent, the Raptors did no such thing.

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                  • #24
                    Colangelo essentially warned the fan base that the season would be a long one. You don't need to read between the lines to understand that his expectations weren't very high.

                    And I don't think of tanking as being dishonest, or lacking integrity. Maintaining financial flexibility, allowing your young players to grow, and banking on another lotto pick (while your previous lotto picks readies himself) is what we all hoped Colangelo would do. The 2012 lotto pick is a very big part of Colangelo's plans for this season. When a GM doesn't make any moves to improve his non-playoff roster, that meets my definition of tanking.

                    Also, don't forget the three 10-day contracts Colangelo brought on. Yes, injuries played a huge part, but every team battled injuries....but not every team had their D-League call ups playing significant minutes (especially towards the end of the season).

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                    • #25
                      I'm against calling it tanking as well. Not blowing all your cap space on mediocre veteran talent who don't get you much further in two or three years is far from tanking. I'm with Apollo that there was no way to know that DeRozan and even Ed Davis (and maybe a bit of Amir) wouldn't develop better and produce more than they did. Even though most people on here didn't expect us to win 23 games, in hindsight it's pretty clear that with a healthy Bargnani and more development by our young players (which they could and should have expected) we would have been more competitive (how much more is up for debate). That's not tanking in any definition.

                      About the ten day contracts: instead of signing those, Colangelo/Casey could have given the minutes to players like Carter, Butler and Forbes. Would that have been putting better talent on the court, I don't think so.

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                      • #26
                        Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                        About the ten day contracts: instead of signing those, Colangelo/Casey could have given the minutes to players like Carter, Butler and Forbes. Would that have been putting better talent on the court, I don't think so.
                        If we weren't tanking, I'm sure Colangelo would've made a better effort (via trades) to improve the roster when injuries occurred, rather than relying on Alan Anderson.

                        You can call it whatever you like. But either way, Colangelo wasn't trying his best to win as many games as possible. This has been evident ever since the botched Calderon/Chandler/Diaw trade.

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                        • #27
                          remember when we almost had Boris Diaw and Tyson Chandler for Jose Calderon....le sigh
                          For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                          • #28
                            The problem I find is that some people seem to want to make it such a black & white argument: either you're competing for the NBA championship or you're tanking. The truth is, a majority of teams have no legitimate shot at the championship from year to year, so they must work to develop their young players and set themselves up for continuous improvement over the short and long term future. I'm more of a realist and understand this approach and don't believe it's tanking. I view it as organic growth, within the confines of the current CBA... however, over the course of the season, I was often accused of being a "tanking" advocate... and I was fine with that.

                            To me, "tanking" is when the team (management, coaching staff and players) collude to purposely and deliberately lose games. I don't think the Raptors did that and don't really think any team did that. Yes, some teams were deliberately bad, in an effort to get rid of old and overpriced players, while putting the future ahead of the present, but to me that's just sound franchise management.

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                            • #29
                              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              The problem I find is that some people seem to want to make it such a black & white argument: either you're competing for the NBA championship or you're tanking. The truth is, a majority of teams have no legitimate shot at the championship from year to year, so they must work to develop their young players and set themselves up for continuous improvement over the short and long term future. I'm more of a realist and understand this approach and don't believe it's tanking. I view it as organic growth, within the confines of the current CBA... however, over the course of the season, I was often accused of being a "tanking" advocate... and I was fine with that.

                              To me, "tanking" is when the team (management, coaching staff and players) collude to purposely and deliberately lose games. I don't think the Raptors did that and don't really think any team did that. Yes, some teams were deliberately bad, in an effort to get rid of old and overpriced players, while putting the future ahead of the present, but to me that's just sound franchise management.
                              Exactly. Not siging mediocre or slightly above veterans with no upside left who only get you a little bit further in this year and not in the longterm isn't tanking, it's just not being stupid. (In fact, you can make a case that signing veterans who only help you a little in the short term and not in the longterm is longterm tanking - and for no reason whatsoever).

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                              • #30
                                The reason there's this much debate is because there isn't a single agreed upon definition of "tanking". We're all describing the exact same scenario, yet calling it something different

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