I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think I can debate with you if you consider Bargnani a "subpar youngster" and Gay a "scrap from other teams".
Frankly, I think that Bargnani would have been an allstar this season if not for his injury. Gay is a proven commodity that has often at least been in the allstar conversation, who has always been a solid contributor at both ends of the court. Bargnani will be 27 and Gay will be 26 this season, so I would argue they are both just now hitting their prime and I think both still have room for futher improvement. You add Valanciunas and potentially another 1st round pick to this team, that would still include DeRozan (will only be 23 this season), who has lots of room for improvement (and I've been as hard on DD as anyone), and I don't get how you can argue that a "rebuild" or "building" process is being derailed...
We will have to disagree. Bargnani was not making the all-star team. If Josh Smith couldn't make it healthy, Andrea was nowhere near it especially playing for a 23 win squad.
This is not the type of talent that you invest in. Gay is a solid player don't get me wrong but I think he is being propped up by this fanbase because they want something to cheer about and get excited about. A Gay, Bargnani (we know who he is), Derozan (we know who he is), JV (TBD) is getting us where?
Maybe I'm too demanding but I'm not satisifed with being 1st round playoff fodder.
Sleepz, your bias against Colangelo and Bargnani (whether warranted or not) is skewing your view of the Raptors current circumstances. This year and this year alone, they have the opportunity to take on a borderline star player - because of his salary- and still have assets that give them the opportunity to acquire a late lottery pick. As has been mentioned earlier - this is the best of both worlds. We are not likely to get a game changer at 8, as a matter of fact we are probably just as likley at 14-16.
If we do take on salary then we get to use Bird rights, TPE and MLE and bi-annual should we choose. If we don't take on salary and just select at 8 we lose all the aforementioned assets.
If we can get Gay, gain these assets and have a decent chance at getting another mid first pick we'd be stupid not to go that route. If you think we're on our way to a championship by drafting 8th the next 3 years - show me where that has been done before.
No bias. I just tend to let production and past history be the basis of my opinions.
Should I not be wary of acquiring a "borderline all-star" with $54 million left on his deal? What if he is not too excited about the possibility of playing in Toronto? There's no bias in these concerns.
Who's to say that Raps can acquire another lottery pick? You're also not sure that a player cannot be acquired at #8 that will be as good or better than Gay. In fact, in a much weaker draft about 6-7 years ago a player named Rudy Gay went #8, so your assumption that it is not possible doesn't deter my optimism regarding this pick.
I never said that in 3 years you will be at the point of a championship, but within those 3 years you will have enough young assets to start to make proper decisions with this goal in mind without it being a pipedream and without being tied up in salary obligations that are unmanageable. What will be your respons i n 3 years when the team is capped out, have reached their ceiling and will not have much talented youth to move forward with? You will probably say those #7 seed finishes were good while they lasted.
sleepz, all I can say is that sometimes a homerun swing results in a ball actually clearing the fence
Lol, it does. Also depends on who the hitter is. If it's Bautista then you got a shot. If it's Arencibia (no disrespect to him of course) then a strike-out or pop out to 3rd is a more likely option.
I thought Colangelo should have been fired after the Turkoglu debacle but he wasn't. He's still here. So, I say let him put together whatever quick fix, instamatic, one hour dry cleaning, strong abs in just 3 minutes a day roster he wants. When it fails, as it inevitably will, there won't be any more excuses. Then, the organization can actually try and get on track under proper management. Even if you brought in a new GM tomorrow, it would take 2-3 years to clean up this mess. Adding another 1-2 years isn't the end of the world. Heck, I've been watching horrible Raps teams for the better part of 16 years. I still watch. If it means getting rid of Colangelo and Company, I'm more than happy to stick it out for another few years...
I thought Colangelo should have been fired after the Turkoglu debacle but he wasn't. He's still here. So, I say let him put together whatever quick fix, instamatic, one hour dry cleaning, strong abs in just 3 minutes a day roster he wants. When it fails, as it inevitably will, there won't be any more excuses. Then, the organization can actually try and get on track under proper management. Even if you brought in a new GM tomorrow, it would take 2-3 years to clean up this mess. Adding another 1-2 years isn't the end of the world. Heck, I've been watching horrible Raps teams for the better part of 16 years. I still watch. If it means getting rid of Colangelo and Company, I'm more than happy to stick it out for another few years...
So do you consider rumored moves of acquiring Gay, still having Bargnani's deal on the books and possibly acquiring Nash as Colangelo "It took 5 years but I finally get it"?
Any apporach needs luck draft or not but youth is currency and rookie contracts are the best and easily manageable asset for a GM in the NBA. The Raps have 4 lottery picks in the last 4 years and where has it got them? Good question, considering Colangelo has been saying he wants to build around these same players for the last how long? JV is a lottery pick that everyone is trumpeting as their 5 for the forseeable future. Add a 6th, 7th and 8th pick as far as I'm concerned. However long it takes until you actually have a collection of talented young players to build around and then give out the money based on their abilities and production moving into the future. Is Gay that type of player? Perhaps, but considering a team that is a playoff contender is prepared to move him, there is obviously room for debate. Is Gay an elite wing? I say he could be but others say he's not and there is a legit argument to be made for both sides. This is not like acquiring Durrant or Lebron. This is not a guaranteed winner no matter what anyone wants to say about it, especially when the players he will be playing with now are going to be considerably worse than any players he has balled with recently.
How do you know if he even wants to come here? lol. I wouldn't if I was in his shoes.
This is another homerun swing. Blatant attempt to try and put the Raps in the playoff picture and to save a lame GM's job and garner an extension. We knew this was coming. How quickly would Colangelo forgo patience when he wants a new deal?
There is no guarantee Gay is an elite wing and this is coming from someone who likes his game. There is no guarantee that there is an option to still get a lottery pick. The only thing I know for sure is we will be speaking about rebuilding again in the near future. Colangelo's track record as Gm of the Raps has given me enuff precedent to make this type of statement and be more than justified for saying it.
Clearly we'll have to disagree on a number of fronts.
The biggest one appears to be the notion that there is only one way to build. Looking around the league, there are a number of teams in present and historically who have failed at the method you propose.
I don't know what deals are out there but you did not acknowledge the possibility of getting Gay AND a lottery pick. That would seem to address concerns on both fronts.
Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Jun 7, 2012, 03:13 PM.
No bias. I just tend to let production and past history be the basis of my opinions.
Should I not be wary of acquiring a "borderline all-star" with $54 million left on his deal? What if he is not too excited about the possibility of playing in Toronto? There's no bias in these concerns.
Who's to say that Raps can acquire another lottery pick? You're also not sure that a player cannot be acquired at #8 that will be as good or better than Gay. In fact, in a much weaker draft about 6-7 years ago a player named Rudy Gay went #8, so your assumption that it is not possible doesn't deter my optimism regarding this pick.
I never said that in 3 years you will be at the point of a championship, but within those 3 years you will have enough young assets to start to make proper decisions with this goal in mind without it being a pipedream and without being tied up in salary obligations that are unmanageable. What will be your respons i n 3 years when the team is capped out, have reached their ceiling and will not have much talented youth to move forward with? You will probably say those #7 seed finishes were good while they lasted.
How would the team be capped out in 3 seasons? If the Raps trade for Gay and do a deal with NO, they'd likely be about $10M over the cap.
- Calderon's $10M expires after one season
- Ariza's $7M and Kleiza's $4.5M expire after one or two (player options for 2nd season)
- Amir's $7M, Bargnani's $12M and Gay's $19M expire after three seasons
In fact, those 3 players (Bargnani, Gay and Amir) would be the only players even under contract for year #3 (2014/15), other than DeRozan (if re-signed), Valanciunas and any rookies drafted this year (or in the next two drafts).
In 3 years, Bargnani is 30, Gay is 29, DeRozan is 26, Valanciunas is 23, they would have 1 or 2 2012 1st round rookies, 1 2013 first round rookie and 1 2014 first round rookie. That is 8 good young players to form a core nucleous in 3 years from now (only 2 of the 8 would be over 26 years old!).
It would be a good young team with improved talent and really good salary cap flexibility, despite the big contracts currently owed to Bargnani and Gay. The team could acquire the #10 pick from NO to make up for trading away the #8 pick AND might get the #25 pick too!!!
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jun 7, 2012, 03:23 PM.
Mango: what team could provide Memphis with a return better than what Toronto could offer?
Matt, you swayed me over. I was strongly against R Gay trade, but your analysis persuaded me.
-I don't see where Memphis can do better (GS maybe talent wise, but getting stuck with either Biedrins or Jefferson would reduce the value.
-In terms or why would Memphis do it: simple:
-They have no choice. Heisley indicated -paying tax is not an option; Gay is basically their only reasonable option. I assume Gasol is not going anywhere.
-Staying put (and paying tax) -what is the point. This team (and current payroll) cannot beat 5th team in the West. What chance do they have against OKC, SA or even Lakers?
My biggest concern was trading DD, Davis & 8th (possibly more, thus reducing our depth) for a grossly overpriced marginal all star at best. If we can get Gay for 2012 pick, Ed & maybe JJ (or Ed, Calderon & 8th) makes a lot of sense.
I would still consider giving Batum 12-14 mil first (since no other assets would be involved).
IMO either deal (getting R Gay or Batum) would justify trying to get Nash (and increase likely-hood of doing so).
Impressive opening analysis.
Lol, it does. Also depends on who the hitter is. If it's Bautista then you got a shot. If it's Arencibia (no disrespect to him of course) then a strike-out or pop out to 3rd is a more likely option.
Colangelo is the Arencibia of GM's
At the risk of getting too far off topic, I say this:
If they make a move for Iguodala/Gay then it seems like the Raptors are settling on the NBA's proverbial no man's land again. They'll land somewhere between 5th and 8th in the East and we get to be a punching bag for a powerhouse team in the first round of the playoffs. There is a reason that these two guys are available in the first place and it's because they are paid a ton of money and yet their teams have maxed out as fringe contenders. By packaging a bunch of assets to bring them to Toronto, you're essentially signing up for the same fate.
If it's the Calderon/Davis/8th overall package that is rumoured then we're going into 2012-13 with Jarred Bayless as the starting point guard. That is a nightmare. Calderon is serviceable as a starting point for the next season and he should help Jonas transition to the league... both on court with his competence in the pick and roll and off the court as well with their European connection. Plus after trudging through 4 years of Calderon's bloated contract, part of me wants the Raptors to be the ones to reap the cap relief when it finally runs out next summer.
This is classic Colangelo and I will be disappointed if it goes through.
I don't understand why there wouldn't be more support for these two trades to go through:
1) Davis & JJ & #8 for Gay (ideally with #25, but lets just say without for now)
2) TPE for Ariza & #10
Incoming:
- Gay (starting SF, becomes #1a/1b option on offense, huge improvement over JJ or any SF available @ #8 in the draft)
- Ariza (backup SF/SG, great defensively, will only be around for 1 or 2 seasons, depending whether or not he uses his player option for 2nd year)
- #10 pick (we drop 2 spots from #8)
Outgoing:
- Davis (3rd string PF, clears up logjam at PF, clearly establishes Amir as the backup PF)
- JJ (a backup at best, gets replaced by Gay)
- #8 pick (replaced by #10 pick)
Net Impact
- Gay (26) & Ariza (27) replace Davis (23) & JJ (25/26)
- pick @ #10 instead of #8 (could conceivably still get the player we want anyway, likely a SG or PG)
Who cares about total salary? It's not like we pay for it. After these moves, the Raptors would likely wind up being about $7-10M over the cap next season. Calderon ($10.5M) expires after 1 year, Ariza ($7.5M) & Kleiza ($4.5M) expire after 1/2 years (depending on player option for 2nd year), and then Gay ($19.3M), Bargnani ($12M) and Amir ($7M) all expire after 3 years, so it's not like taking on Gay's contract will be cause for any big cap constraints.
The Raps would be building a core around Bargnani (27), Gay (26), DeRozan (23), Valanciunas (20) and the #10 pick.
They still have the full MLE, as well as other tradeable assets (#37 pick, #56 pick, Calderon's expiring contract, Forbes, future draft picks), to further improve for next season.
If they keep their future draft picks, they will be able to add more 1st round picks to the core nucleus of players, while also having loads of young players available as tradeable assets and cap flexibility to pursue free agents in future seasons.
I can't believe that essentially trading Davis & JJ for Rudy Gay can possibly be a bad thing! Of course, all this is dependent on the two trades listed above. This team would be significantly improved over last year's team (add Gay, Ariza, Valanciunas, #10 pick and a healthy Bargnani), to the point where I foresee it making the playoffs in the East. BC maintains his ability to continue improving the roster both this offseason and beyond next season, via internal player improvement, future drafting, potential trades and pursuing free agents with cap space flexibility. It is still a solid "building" process, just one that is given a boost by swapping Davis & JJ for Rudy Gay!
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jun 7, 2012, 05:49 PM.
Reason: spelling... d'oh
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