View Poll Results: What is your #1 concern with trading for Rudy Gay?

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  • His fit with the Raptors

    3 8.33%
  • His talent and ability (or lack thereof)

    1 2.78%
  • His contract

    8 22.22%
  • Assets required to get him

    24 66.67%
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Thread: The case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors: Heisley speaks to rumours (277)

  1. #221
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Not interested in Iggy at all. He's quite a few notches below Gay (both in terms of current production, and future potential).
    +1
    And Iggy will likely cost you more assets (Memphis is more desperate to move Gay). Also IMO Gay is a much better player now.

  2. #222
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Caldy + Kleiza/Ed + 8th pick + 56th pick= Rudy Gay

    Sign Nash or Dragic

    Nash or Dragic/Bayless
    DeRozan/Forbes
    Gay/JJ
    Bargnani/Amir or Ed
    Valanciunas/Gray/Magloire

  3. #223
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Calderon/Kleiza/8th for Gay and Cunningham

  4. #224
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    If they make a move for Iguodala/Gay then it seems like the Raptors are settling on the NBA's proverbial no man's land again. They'll land somewhere between 5th and 8th in the East and we get to be a punching bag for a powerhouse team in the first round of the playoffs. There is a reason that these two guys are available in the first place and it's because they are paid a ton of money and yet their teams have maxed out as fringe contenders. By packaging a bunch of assets to bring them to Toronto, you're essentially signing up for the same fate.

    If it's the Calderon/Davis/8th overall package that is rumoured then we're going into 2012-13 with Jarred Bayless as the starting point guard. That is a nightmare. Calderon is serviceable as a starting point for the next season and he should help Jonas transition to the league... both on court with his competence in the pick and roll and off the court as well with their European connection. Plus after trudging through 4 years of Calderon's bloated contract, part of me wants the Raptors to be the ones to reap the cap relief when it finally runs out next summer.

    This is classic Colangelo and I will be disappointed if it goes through.

  5. #225
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I don't understand why there wouldn't be more support for these two trades to go through:
    1) Davis & JJ & #8 for Gay (ideally with #25, but lets just say without for now)
    2) TPE for Ariza & #10

    Incoming:
    - Gay (starting SF, becomes #1a/1b option on offense, huge improvement over JJ or any SF available @ #8 in the draft)
    - Ariza (backup SF/SG, great defensively, will only be around for 1 or 2 seasons, depending whether or not he uses his player option for 2nd year)
    - #10 pick (we drop 2 spots from #8)

    Outgoing:
    - Davis (3rd string PF, clears up logjam at PF, clearly establishes Amir as the backup PF)
    - JJ (a backup at best, gets replaced by Gay)
    - #8 pick (replaced by #10 pick)

    Net Impact
    - Gay (26) & Ariza (27) replace Davis (23) & JJ (25/26)
    - pick @ #10 instead of #8 (could conceivably still get the player we want anyway, likely a SG or PG)

    Who cares about total salary? It's not like we pay for it. After these moves, the Raptors would likely wind up being about $7-10M over the cap next season. Calderon ($10.5M) expires after 1 year, Ariza ($7.5M) & Kleiza ($4.5M) expire after 1/2 years (depending on player option for 2nd year), and then Gay ($19.3M), Bargnani ($12M) and Amir ($7M) all expire after 3 years, so it's not like taking on Gay's contract will be cause for any big cap constraints.

    The Raps would be building a core around Bargnani (27), Gay (26), DeRozan (23), Valanciunas (20) and the #10 pick.

    They still have the full MLE, as well as other tradeable assets (#37 pick, #56 pick, Calderon's expiring contract, Forbes, future draft picks), to further improve for next season.

    If they keep their future draft picks, they will be able to add more 1st round picks to the core nucleus of players, while also having loads of young players available as tradeable assets and cap flexibility to pursue free agents in future seasons.

    I can't believe that essentially trading Davis & JJ for Rudy Gay can possibly be a bad thing! Of course, all this is dependent on the two trades listed above. This team would be significantly improved over last year's team (add Gay, Ariza, Valanciunas, #10 pick and a healthy Bargnani), to the point where I foresee it making the playoffs in the East. BC maintains his ability to continue improving the roster both this offseason and beyond next season, via internal player improvement, future drafting, potential trades and pursuing free agents with cap space flexibility. It is still a solid "building" process, just one that is given a boost by swapping Davis & JJ for Rudy Gay!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jun 7th, 2012 at 05:49 PM. Reason: spelling... d'oh

  6. #226
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    If they make a move for Iguodala/Gay then it seems like the Raptors are settling on the NBA's proverbial no man's land again. They'll land somewhere between 5th and 8th in the East and we get to be a punching bag for a powerhouse team in the first round of the playoffs. There is a reason that these two guys are available in the first place and it's because they are paid a ton of money and yet their teams have maxed out as fringe contenders. By packaging a bunch of assets to bring them to Toronto, you're essentially signing up for the same fate.

    If it's the Calderon/Davis/8th overall package that is rumoured then we're going into 2012-13 with Jarred Bayless as the starting point guard. That is a nightmare. Calderon is serviceable as a starting point for the next season and he should help Jonas transition to the league... both on court with his competence in the pick and roll and off the court as well with their European connection. Plus after trudging through 4 years of Calderon's bloated contract, part of me wants the Raptors to be the ones to reap the cap relief when it finally runs out next summer.

    This is classic Colangelo and I will be disappointed if it goes through.
    If we get Gay, Nash might be more interested or Dragic

  7. #227
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    If we get Gay, Nash might be more interested or Dragic
    I concur. I seriously doubt BC would trade away Calderon, unless he knows something we don't about who will be starting next season. I highly doubt that BC has any intention of going into next season with Bayless as the team's starting PG. If Calderon is traded (especially so early in the offseason), it's either because he knows Nash wants to sign here, is confident he can lure another free agent (ie: Dragic), or has another deal lined up already. Even drafting Lillard, Waiters or Marshall is not likely the answer; for backup PG perhaps, but not starting PG. I'd give BC the benefit of the doubt for making a follow-up move for the starting PG slot, if Calderon is dealt.

  8. #228
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I concur. I seriously doubt BC would trade away Calderon, unless he knows something we don't about who will be starting next season. I highly doubt that BC has any intention of going into next season with Bayless as the team's starting PG. If Calderon is traded (especially so early in the offseason), it's either because he knows Nash wants to sign here, is confident he can lure another free agent (ie: Dragic), or has another deal lined up already. Even drafting Lillard, Waiters or Marshall is not likely the answer; for backup PG perhaps, but not starting PG. I'd give BC the benefit of the doubt for making a follow-up move for the starting PG slot, if Calderon is dealt.
    I wouldn't mind Bayless starting. Plus like you said if he does trade calderon then Nash might be a sure thing. OR maybe he signs nash first then trades for Gay

  9. #229
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    I wouldn't mind Bayless starting. Plus like you said if he does trade calderon then Nash might be a sure thing. OR maybe he signs nash first then trades for Gay
    haha I would mind Bayless starting. The Gay trade would likely need to be done first (especially if done without Calderon), while the Raptors have the $12M cap space. The TPE trade would need to be done prior to July 1st (can be done after only if the Raps are at/above the salary cap level on July 1st). Acquiring Nash would then only be possible if facilitated through a S&T deal with Phoenix, having Calderon heading to Phoenix, possibly with a future draft pick or whatever player is picked at #37 and/or #56 (perhaps the players would be drafted for Phoenix, like was done for Indy ahead of the O'Neal trade).

  10. #230
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    Matt, you swayed me over. I was strongly against R Gay trade, but your analysis persuaded me.
    -I don't see where Memphis can do better (GS maybe talent wise, but getting stuck with either Biedrins or Jefferson would reduce the value.
    -In terms or why would Memphis do it: simple:
    -They have no choice. Heisley indicated -paying tax is not an option; Gay is basically their only reasonable option. I assume Gasol is not going anywhere.
    -Staying put (and paying tax) -what is the point. This team (and current payroll) cannot beat 5th team in the West. What chance do they have against OKC, SA or even Lakers?
    My biggest concern was trading DD, Davis & 8th (possibly more, thus reducing our depth) for a grossly overpriced marginal all star at best. If we can get Gay for 2012 pick, Ed & maybe JJ (or Ed, Calderon & 8th) makes a lot of sense.
    I would still consider giving Batum 12-14 mil first (since no other assets would be involved).
    IMO either deal (getting R Gay or Batum) would justify trying to get Nash (and increase likely-hood of doing so).
    Impressive opening analysis.
    Thank you.

    It is a controversial topic obviously but I'd rather role with a quartet of:

    Nash-Gay-Bargnani-JV than Calderon-DD-Bargnani-JV

    We've seen what Calderon-DD-Bargnani can do together.

    What I really like about Toronto possibly acquiring another lottery pick by picking up Ariza (as an example) is the Raptors will be in a situation where when Gay-Bargnani-Nash come off the books, they could have a franchise centre and another solid young player hitting their prime to build around and Gay-Bargnani could possibly be around for that given they'll both be 29-30.

  11. #231
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    If we get Gay, Nash might be more interested or Dragic
    Nash isn't going to decide on the Raptors because they got Rudy Gay. If he comes to Toronto, it's because he's satisfied with playing his career out in his home country and the opportunity he gets as a Canadian basketball ambassador. If he wants to go somewhere that gives him a chance to win, there's plenty of other cities more suited for that than Toronto.

  12. #232
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Because that along with being a contender cannot be considered together. It has to be one or the other.

    # severe sarcasm

  13. #233
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Nash isn't going to decide on the Raptors because they got Rudy Gay. If he comes to Toronto, it's because he's satisfied with playing his career out in his home country and the opportunity he gets as a Canadian basketball ambassador. If he wants to go somewhere that gives him a chance to win, there's plenty of other cities more suited for that than Toronto.
    but it could also help in his decision if he is also playing for something and gets paid. the proverbial cake and eat it too

  14. #234
    Raptors Republic Starter draftedraptor's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    If they make a move for Iguodala/Gay then it seems like the Raptors are settling on the NBA's proverbial no man's land again. They'll land somewhere between 5th and 8th in the East and we get to be a punching bag for a powerhouse team in the first round of the playoffs. There is a reason that these two guys are available in the first place and it's because they are paid a ton of money and yet their teams have maxed out as fringe contenders. By packaging a bunch of assets to bring them to Toronto, you're essentially signing up for the same fate.

    If it's the Calderon/Davis/8th overall package that is rumoured then we're going into 2012-13 with Jarred Bayless as the starting point guard. That is a nightmare. Calderon is serviceable as a starting point for the next season and he should help Jonas transition to the league... both on court with his competence in the pick and roll and off the court as well with their European connection. Plus after trudging through 4 years of Calderon's bloated contract, part of me wants the Raptors to be the ones to reap the cap relief when it finally runs out next summer.

    This is classic Colangelo and I will be disappointed if it goes through.
    As much as I like the idea of rudy in toronto I have to agree with the above post. I would hate it if we made bad trades now and lose our assets because it is crunch time for BC.

  15. #235
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    As much as I like the idea of rudy in toronto I have to agree with the above post. I would hate it if we made bad trades now and lose our assets because it is crunch time for BC.
    if the only assets we are sending out are picks and ed while we are getting a player who would be the second or 3rd best sf in the east, i think you have to make that trade. if calderon is also moved in the deal i would expect a hard run at nash/dragic/lowry but i disagree with the people who think bayless can't run point and wouldn't be upset with him there as well.

    lebron
    2???gay/granger/melo/iggy(tough last name to spell)/pierce?

    i think i would take gay over any of them not lebron

  16. #236
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I made this post in another thread but feel it is relevant here as well - my apologies for the double post:


    What prospect at #8 is better than Gay right now and what prospect is guaranteed to ever put up 20 points per game?

    What free agent is available that is better than Rudy Gay?

    What free agent is available this year that is a definite to sign with a team that has been one of the jokes of the league the last 4 years?

    What impact free agent is available that the Raptors would not have to grossly over pay for?

    By the Raptors 'wasting' 2 assets to get Gay they save 2 other assets in the TPE and MLE. Those two assets could also yield impact veterans - and maybe another lottery pick if rumours are true.


    I'm talking total crazy here now but here I go:
    What if Toronto acquired Gay/25. Acquired Ariza and #10. Traded DeMar/25/37/56 to Phoenix for #13. What if Toronto traded Ariza/10/13 to Sacramento for Garcia/5? Probably not possible but just an illustration of the flexibility Toronto still has even if trading for Gay.


    Acquiring Gay hardly handcuffs the Raptors. If Gay brought the Raptors to the luxury tax, then yes, I would most definitely be questioning the wisdom. But he doesn't. He takes the Raptors to the soft cap leaving them with $12M in room before hitting the luxury tax.

  17. #237
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Matt, I'm not understanding why Memphis trades their first rounder in a trade where they're also trading arguably their best player.

  18. #238
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Chisholm: Should the Raptors deal for Grizzlies' Gay?

    Dammit... I really tried to take just a few paragraphs but this really is a good piece by Chisholm. It is worth the click to read in its entirety - although I did put a good chunk here.

    And make no mistake, both sides would want this done before the draft.
    So, let's break it down. Gay definitely fits this Raptors squad, and would yield immediate results if he were brought on board. He's averaged nearly 20 points per game over the last four years, he can create his own shot off of the dribble, he can hit shots from anywhere on the floor and he is an underrated defender on the wing. The Raptors desperately need a player that can pull defenses off of Andrea Bargnani, that can hit the three and can operate with the ball in his hands at the end of games - all of which Gay can do. He'd also allow DeMar DeRozan to slide into the third scorer's role and would make Toronto's wing position as athletic as it's been since the late 90's.

    That salary, though, is gruesome. $16.5-million next year, $17.9-million in 2013-14 and $19.3-million in 2014-15. He would be making 50 per cent more than the next richest Raptor going forward (Bargnani), and that disparity only increases over the life of the deal. Understand, there is a reason such a talented player is on the trading block, and this is it.

    Here's what I'll offer as a counterpoint, though. Bargnani, relative to his production, is a bargain. Well, actually he's probably paid exactly what he should be paid, but on the open market he'd be paid more. Put it this way, if Danilo Galliari is making the same money as Bargnani, then Bargnani is a bargain. Him, combined with the rookie-scale deal of Jonas Valanciunas, help balance-out the cap debt of Toronto's frontcourt with Rudy Gay on board. It doesn't totally account for Gay's astronomical contract, but it makes it (a little) easier to swallow.

    Basically, acquiring talent that you didn't draft is expensive. That's always the hard choice for a team in Toronto's position. You want to take the next step as a franchise, but to do that you need an injection of talent, and that usually means signing or trading for an expensive asset. There are thresholds that make such expenditures prohibitive, and one could make a compelling argument that Gay crosses that threshold, but in my eyes his fit is so ideal (and not everyone will agree with that sentiment) that I can see the logic behind Toronto's pursuit of him in a trade.

    Which brings us around the eighth pick -- the one asset that would almost assuredly need to be in any deal involving Gay and the Raptors. This becomes a philosophical debate, one that revolves around the seductiveness of building through the draft -- of having those highly-valued rookie-scale contracts on the books and hoping that each pick pans out -- set against the reality that the draft offers no guarantees and that every serious franchise needs a healthy mix of young talent and veterans. People will argue until they're blue in the face that one way or the other is the only way to go, but the truth is that both are gambles and neither one is guaranteed to pay off. As an organization you have to make certain choices, certain sacrifices, and make sure that those decisions are part of a logical, well-established plan of attack that has subsequent steps in place to justify them. I know that there is no one at the eighth pick that I'm in love with, but I would have said the same thing in 2006 when Rudy Gay was selected there. So take that for what you will.

    Until we know more specifics about what's actually on the table for this potential deal, there's no point in breaking it down any further. There are potential parts of this deal that make tons of sense for the Raptors and there are potential parts that make a lot less sense, and it's in the minutia that those distinctions will be revealed if such a trade is ever consummated. Colangelo, though, has a history in Toronto of forcing deals through when he becomes fixated on them (and some wound up being very poor pursuits in the end), and if he's fixated on bringing Gay to Toronto, you can expect him to fight tooth-and-nail to make that happen.

    If he wildly overpays for Gay, or any asset, then these last two years of patience and development may wind up having been for naught. If he can manufacture a mutually-beneficial trade, though, then the Raptors could take a serious step forward next season. We'll find out which way this all plays out in 21 days. Stay tuned.


    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=397869

  19. #239
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Matt, I'm not understanding why Memphis trades their first rounder in a trade where they're also trading arguably their best player.
    I can think of $53million reasons spread over the next 3 seasons. But if we are down to debating #25, then that is a start.

    I probably shouldn't have put that bit in about trading DD - already a lot of thoughts going on here - but I keep thinking about this:

    Perhaps the greatest sign comes from a letter, addressed to season seat holders by Colangelo, in which he thanks seat holders and welcomes them to follow along for “what should be an exciting and active offseason.”

    http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog...ve-off-season/

  20. #240
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Nash isn't going to decide on the Raptors because they got Rudy Gay. If he comes to Toronto, it's because he's satisfied with playing his career out in his home country and the opportunity he gets as a Canadian basketball ambassador. If he wants to go somewhere that gives him a chance to win, there's plenty of other cities more suited for that than Toronto.
    I can understand that he may want to win a ring but he has a couple of years left imo to be a top shelf (or somewhat) PG. He can go any of the top teams but at a deep discount (vet min. or at best the exception). I dont know if he has expressed total willingness to do that though.

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