The case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors: Heisley speaks to rumours (277)

[Matt52]

Rumours are swirling that Charlotte is offering #2 to get Gay. That sounds great and certainly better than #8.

Unless the deal is made after July 1st, the problem remains money.

Also, Charlotte is going to want to package Diop or Thomas in any trade.

Memphis taking back a bloated contract does not seem to fit with what they are trying to do (keep current free agents and add depth).

[LBF]

Yes, but, if they could get a third team.

[Matt52]

Yes, but, if they could get a third team.

True but then a third team isn't helping out out of the goodness of their heart. What does Charlotte or Memphis have to entice a 3rd team?

Actually, something I just realized, if they wait until after July 1st, DJ Augustin could be sign and traded. It would require his approval.

However the killer, in my opinion, to this deal will be the rumour that Thomas/Diop has to be included.

[Nilanka]

Can we pause to put some things in perspective?

For the life of me, I just can't understand all the warmongering and gnashing of teeth about "scrapping the plan after 1 year." For starters, don't give me this bull about "we've only been rebuilding for 1 year." We have been crap and we have been accumulating the according dividends of crappyness for several years now.

Secondly, what is meant by scrapping the plan?? As Chisholm notes (in a fantastic article btw -- thanks Matt) you HAVE to make a move at some point, you just have to. There is no such thing as a purely sedentary team that just accumulates lottery pick after lottery pick indefinitely until it all of a sudden jumps from the slum of the league to the conference title. There is a middle ground, and unless you are the Miami Heat or the Boston Celtics you MUST traverse it. Hence acquiring a significant upgrade in talent by leveraging something other than, or in addition to, talent (its worth noting, anecdotally, that there is a reason why BC is always so damn smug when he talks about his flexibility this off-season, and the assets he has to work with -- guess what? They're one and the same thing. As nice as it is to think of JJ and Amir as significant assets, they really aren't; it's our ability to eat up salary that is currently most valuable to other teams - read: Memphis.)

Does improving to an average or above average team with the acquisition of Gay (I'll leave it at just Gay for the sake of argument - needless to say though, his acquisition certainly doesn't preclude more moves) mean we are doomed to mediocrity? I certainly don't think so. First, each of our core players has room to improve over the next few years, second, our draft picks aren't going anywhere, so if we are in fact middle of the pack and not superb next year, we still get a reasonable asset - some of you are making it out to sound like we're creating a self-imposed life long ban on drafting by trading ONE draft pick. Third, while we won't have tons of money to sign people next year (not that we'd have tons if we stayed the course either, things get interesting for everyone next year cap-wise) we'll have enough (e.g. MLE), but more importantly, we'll have a team worth coming to. No one wants to sign with a team gunning for their 7th consecutive lottery pick.

Ultimately, right now we have a chance to leverage a temporary asset for something real and significant, partly due to our circumstances and partly due to Memphis'. If we let this pass, I think we'll find ourselves in a much worse position, not just in the short term, but the long term as well.

To those of you wanting to "stay the course": what is the course? Not just in method, but in result. What do you realistically see for this team's future if it doesn't make a move this summer? Personally, I see something like the Kings or Wolves, with a little more discipline and a little less talent, and it doesn't look pretty.

I'm glad I resisted the urge to scroll past this novel. Great post!

[Matt52]

Can we pause to put some things in perspective?

For the life of me, I just can't understand all the warmongering and gnashing of teeth about "scrapping the plan after 1 year." For starters, don't give me this bull about "we've only been rebuilding for 1 year." We have been crap and we have been accumulating the according dividends of crappyness for several years now.

Secondly, what is meant by scrapping the plan?? As Chisholm notes (in a fantastic article btw -- thanks Matt) you HAVE to make a move at some point, you just have to. There is no such thing as a purely sedentary team that just accumulates lottery pick after lottery pick indefinitely until it all of a sudden jumps from the slum of the league to the conference title. There is a middle ground, and unless you are the Miami Heat or the Boston Celtics you MUST traverse it. Hence acquiring a significant upgrade in talent by leveraging something other than, or in addition to, talent (its worth noting, anecdotally, that there is a reason why BC is always so damn smug when he talks about his flexibility this off-season, and the assets he has to work with -- guess what? They're one and the same thing. As nice as it is to think of JJ and Amir as significant assets, they really aren't; it's our ability to eat up salary that is currently most valuable to other teams - read: Memphis.)

Does improving to an average or above average team with the acquisition of Gay (I'll leave it at just Gay for the sake of argument - needless to say though, his acquisition certainly doesn't preclude more moves) mean we are doomed to mediocrity? I certainly don't think so. First, each of our core players has room to improve over the next few years, second, our draft picks aren't going anywhere, so if we are in fact middle of the pack and not superb next year, we still get a reasonable asset - some of you are making it out to sound like we're creating a self-imposed life long ban on drafting by trading ONE draft pick. Third, while we won't have tons of money to sign people next year (not that we'd have tons if we stayed the course either, things get interesting for everyone next year cap-wise) we'll have enough (e.g. MLE), but more importantly, we'll have a team worth coming to. No one wants to sign with a team gunning for their 7th consecutive lottery pick.

Ultimately, right now we have a chance to leverage a temporary asset for something real and significant, partly due to our circumstances and partly due to Memphis'. If we let this pass, I think we'll find ourselves in a much worse position, not just in the short term, but the long term as well.

To those of you wanting to "stay the course": what is the course? Not just in method, but in result. What do you realistically see for this team's future if it doesn't make a move this summer? Personally, I see something like the Kings or Wolves, with a little more discipline and a little less talent, and it doesn't look pretty.

That last paragraph is gold.

[planetmars]

A Memphis fan-site perspective on trading Gay:
http://www.3sob.com/2012/june-2012/w...rudy-gay/3641/

Some fans seem to be on board with trading Gay to Toronto for some of our pieces. This could end up being a win-win for both clubs and fans. Of course not all fans are in agreement.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

A Memphis fan-site perspective on trading Gay:
http://www.3sob.com/2012/june-2012/w...rudy-gay/3641/

Some fans seem to be on board with trading Gay to Toronto for some of our pieces. This could end up being a win-win for both clubs and fans. Of course not all fans are in agreement.

Thanks for the link. I posted a trade idea message under the name "Realist", to hopefully drum up some conversation/feedback about the idea that we've been discussing here on RR.

[themasao]

this novel.

Yeeeea, that's a bad habit of mine. Let's put it this way, the paucity of my post count belies the number of words (and time) I've spent on this site.

[themasao]

A Memphis fan-site perspective on trading Gay:
http://www.3sob.com/2012/june-2012/w...rudy-gay/3641/

Some fans seem to be on board with trading Gay to Toronto for some of our pieces. This could end up being a win-win for both clubs and fans. Of course not all fans are in agreement.

How awesome would it be if team management was a democracy. Two representative (quality, of course -- hence RR) fansites barter for a trade, hammer out the details, and message the head office for confirmation. Then again, we'd be at risk of tyrannising the minority...but isn't that what most GM's already do?

[LBF]

True but then a third team isn't helping out out of the goodness of their heart. What does Charlotte or Memphis have to entice a 3rd team?

Actually, something I just realized, if they wait until after July 1st, DJ Augustin could be sign and traded. It would require his approval.

However the killer, in my opinion, to this deal will be the rumour that Thomas/Diop has to be included.

it's like the you scratch my back, i scratch yours. Everybody wants something.

it's like that one trade in money ball. Where billy beane asks the guy to fill his pop machine for a year.

I do this for you know if you take diop and the big payoff comes later.

[ceez]

A Memphis fan-site perspective on trading Gay:
http://www.3sob.com/2012/june-2012/w...rudy-gay/3641/

Some fans seem to be on board with trading Gay to Toronto for some of our pieces. This could end up being a win-win for both clubs and fans. Of course not all fans are in agreement.

Yeah its a interesting viewpoint. I especially agree with this point:

Third, I’m not a big fan of the small forward. To me, the small forward is the easiest position in the NBA to skimp on. Championship teams are traditionally built around a low post/scoring guard combination and most teams just fill the small forward position with a glue guy (Bruce Bowen/Shane Battier/etc.) and move on. You can find a 3-point shooter/defender and plug them in pretty easily. The only time a small forward is worth investing in is if you have a top 10 player (LeBron/Carmelo/Paul Pierce/etc.). The second tier small forwards are Fools’ Gold (Rudy Gay, Tayshaun Prince, Rashard Lewis). Teams see enough potential that they end up overpaying at the one position that can be sacrificed. What the Grizzlies truly need is a defense first small forward and a shooting guard that can spread the floor/create his own shot if needed. The Grizz have neither. Rudy Gay is a shoot first small forward and Tony Allen is, well, Tony Allen.

I think a upper tier scoring guard is more important than a elite wing player.

[octothorp]

Take it with a grain of salt, but Heisley denies the Grizzlies are shopping Gay.

http://tracking.si.com/2012/06/08/ru...ies-nba-trade/

It is an important distinction that he's not saying they won't trade him, only that they aren't shopping him. This could be
a) an attempt to drive up the market
b) an attempt to cool the rumours for a while
c) the truth

[planetmars]

I think a upper tier scoring guard is more important than a elite wing player.

I do as well.. but where are we going to find an upper tier scoring guard? This draft class most likely doesn't have one (Beal although might be a good player, won't be an elite guard IMO).

Harden is a possibility but to get Harden away from OKC it would take max money, IMO. Is Harden a better investment than Gay, knowing that Gay is a realistic possibility now, and Harden could be a pipe dream?

I'm not sure I'd even take a healthy Eric Gordon over Gay. Gordon still isn't a proven commodity for me especially since he hasn't played enough games in his career yet.

Outside of Harden and Gordon I don't realistically see any other possibilities unless we get the #1 or #2 pick next year and draft a guy like Shabazz Muhammad. But that's assuming he declares and is not a dud in college, and would also mean we try and tank in another year (under Colangelo's final year, that's not happening), or we make a trade now for a potential #1 pick next year (and who's not going to protect their pick?)

Bottom line for me is that ideally an elite guard is better than an elite wing, but beggars can't be choosers.

[Matt52]

Take it with a grain of salt, but Heisley denies the Grizzlies are shopping Gay.

http://tracking.si.com/2012/06/08/ru...ies-nba-trade/

It is an important distinction that he's not saying they won't trade him, only that they aren't shopping him. This could be
a) an attempt to drive up the market
b) an attempt to cool the rumours for a while
c) the truth

He also said the Grizzlies weren't moving

[Matt52]

I do as well.. but where are we going to find an upper tier scoring guard? This draft class most likely doesn't have one (Beal although might be a good player, won't be an elite guard IMO).

Harden is a possibility but to get Harden away from OKC it would take max money, IMO. Is Harden a better investment than Gay, knowing that Gay is a realistic possibility now, and Harden could be a pipe dream?

I'm not sure I'd even take a healthy Eric Gordon over Gay. Gordon still isn't a proven commodity for me especially since he hasn't played enough games in his career yet.

Outside of Harden and Gordon I don't realistically see any other possibilities unless we get the #1 or #2 pick next year and draft a guy like Shabazz Muhammad. But that's assuming he declares and is not a dud in college, and would also mean we try and tank in another year (under Colangelo's final year, that's not happening), or we make a trade now for a potential #1 pick next year (and who's not going to protect their pick?)

Bottom line for me is that ideally an elite guard is better than an elite wing, but beggars can't be choosers.

Toronto will not have max money to offer unless they renounce Calderon, DeRozan, and Johnson. Even then, would he come? And would OKC not match?

[Matt52]

it's like the you scratch my back, i scratch yours. Everybody wants something.

it's like that one trade in money ball. Where billy beane asks the guy to fill his pop machine for a year.

I do this for you know if you take diop and the big payoff comes later.

Nobody in their right mind would take Jordan at his word. He is the king of pull out - and I'm not talking birth control.

[Matt52]

Reportedly, Toronto, Golden State, Brooklyn, Orlando and Charlotte are among the teams that contacted the Griz about acquiring Gay. Heisley acknowledged that no player on the roster can be deemed “untouchable.” But he insisted that it would take an extraordinary offer, which includes a star player clearly better than Gay, to pique the Grizzlies’ interest.

Heisley said he’s communicated that sentiment to general manager Chris Wallace.

“Yes, people have called us to ask about Rudy,” Heisley said. “Obviously, we need to seriously look at strengthening the team. But Rudy is the only player we have who can get his shot any time and any place on the floor. You can’t afford to get rid of him and not bring in somebody who can do more. I think Chris has to be open-minded about everybody on the roster. But I don’t know how else I can say this: There is no plan to trade Rudy Gay.”

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...D=happeningnow

I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth.

But if he is telling the truth, kiss Gay to the Raptors good bye.

*EDIT*

A little more thinking and here is why I don't buy it:

He says in the above article the goal is to win a championship:

“Our plan was always to protect the core. I’ve the core for four years,” Heisley said. “If we ever decide to do something it won’t be because of salary. We’re going to build a team around this core group. We understand Rudy’s salary. We understood it when we gave it to him. We’re not looking to cut salary. We’re looking to try and win a championship.”

But he also said they weren't in the business of luxury tax:

"I remember I went nine years without winning a playoff game. I'd like to have more, but I feel pretty good about this team. I'm looking at the big picture."

Heisley said it's too soon to predict what moves, if any, that the team will make to improve the roster.

He did emphasize, though, that the franchise isn't in position to add much salary.

The Griz have big contracts committed to Rudy Gay, Zach Randolph and Marc Gasol. They have Mike Conley on a modest long-term deal, and will have to make similar tough decisions on several free agents this summer.

"We can't be in the luxury tax business," Heisley said. "We've got to make some financial decisions. That's without question.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news...y/?partner=RSS

One of these quotes is bullsh!t.

Keeping the same team they have now with no true backup C or proven backup PG makes them a luxury tax team (qualifying offers to Mayo, Arthur, Speights). Maybe Selby is the backup PG but he is still just 21 and barely played his rookie year. That still leaves them without a backup C and a luxury tax team.

I think he made the comments to increase the offers.

[Bendit]

Nobody in their right mind would take Jordan at his word. He is the king of pull out - and I'm not talking birth control.

Haha...for a guy who hits the tables frequently and doesn't play a round of golf unless there is pretty hefty bet going he certainly seems to get cold feet with moving players/decision making issues requiring onions.

[Bendit]

I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth.

But if he is telling the truth, kiss Gay to the Raptors good bye.

This has to be one of the more assinine quotes from an owner...."includes a star player clearly better than Gay". Now. why would another team do that? Is it because Gay has such a cap friendly contract?

[Matt52]

This has to be one of the more assinine quotes from an owner...."includes a star player clearly better than Gay". Now. why would another team do that? Is it because Gay has such a cap friendly contract?

Good point. This comment can also be added to my *EDIT* in 277.