View Poll Results: What is your #1 concern with trading for Rudy Gay?

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  • His fit with the Raptors

    3 8.33%
  • His talent and ability (or lack thereof)

    1 2.78%
  • His contract

    8 22.22%
  • Assets required to get him

    24 66.67%
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Thread: The case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors: Heisley speaks to rumours (277)

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter AJ360's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    It's the same premise. You're talking about giving up 50 cents to the dollar.
    Not really, I'm talking about providing one team with what they need (cap space) and what they want (young players). Just not every good young player on our roster.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote AJ360 wrote: View Post
    If we were trying to get out of Valanciunas' burdensome contract and the fanbase had turned on him AND we performed worse in the playoffs with him AND that was the best offer, I might.
    Okay then, since you put it that way, the equivalency of that is trading Bargnani to Orlando for Earl Clark, Daniel Orton and he #19 pick. Some fans would support it, others would not, but in the end, we'd be getting 2 young players and cap space. But the value doesn't match up.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Okay then, since you put it that way, the equivalency of that is trading Bargnani to Orlando for Earl Clark, Daniel Orton and he #19 pick. Some fans would support it, others would not, but in the end, we'd be getting 2 young players and cap space. But the value doesn't match up.
    Mango: what team could provide Memphis with a return better than what Toronto could offer?

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Starter AJ360's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Okay then, since you put it that way, the equivalency of that is trading Bargnani to Orlando for Earl Clark, Daniel Orton and he #19 pick. Some fans would support it, others would not, but in the end, we'd be getting 2 young players and cap space. But the value doesn't match up.
    The reality is that the team who ends up with the best player GENERALLY wins the deal. More importantly, when a team wants to move said player, especially when the reason for moving the player is strictly financial, that team will invariably lose the trade from a talent perspective; however they would likely see it as a victory by the virtue of fulfilling their needs.

    I won't deny the raptors would win this trade from the talent point of view, but they are surrendering a lot of assets including flexibility, which is why in my opinion, a trade involving the 8th pick and 2 young assets would be a fair deal.

  5. #25
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Mango: what team could provide Memphis with a return better than what Toronto could offer?
    I don't get into the habit of conjuring up trades. You get caught up in it, you convince yourself that it's best for the franchise and when it doen't happen or the player of your affection goes elsewhere, there's either A: a lot of heartache or B: a lot of blaming/flaming the General Manager of your team because they didn't complete the trade you had conjured up.

    I will say this though - the Grizz would be better off trading Randolph than Gay. Solid 4's are easier to find than solid-star swingmen.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter The Coach's Avatar
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    Am I the only one that is underwhelmed with the Gay and Iggy trade scenarios?

    I get that Colangelo needs to save his job and will probably give up some young assets to do so... but I thought we were rebuilding to develop a perennial playoff team that competes for championships. Neither Gay nor Iggy do this!! I like the guys and would selfishly like to see Gay on this team next year, because it brings instant gratification... but both Memphis and Philly are trying to IMPROVE their championship chances by REMOVING the guys we apparently are interested in? On any big market team these type of players would be considered a piece of the puzzle... not by any stretch THE piece. Boston a couple years ago used their young assets to acquire Garnett and Ray Allen... two future hall of famers. We are using our young assets to acquire... Rudy Gay (whose win share % is comparable to guys like Thaddeus Young). Here are his numbers:

    Can't embed table so here is link

    Matt, I totally agree with your argument and believe these are the type of guys that Colangelo is looking at, but I am just disappointed in the results of waiting for these last couple years. Our #8 pick could land the 8th pick in the 2006 draft, a draft in which Andrea went first and a draft that was not considered strong. We are trading for proven young talent that MIGHT be an all-star on our team.


    Signed,

    "small market team" blues
    Last edited by The Coach; Sun Jun 3rd, 2012 at 11:43 AM.

  7. #27
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    In the end, I think this team would be better off just staying the course, building the talent, using that #8 pick. The price tag for Rudy Gay is going to be a lot higher than James Johnson, Ed Davis and the #8 pick.

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter AJ360's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I will say this though - the Grizz would be better off trading Randolph than Gay. Solid 4's are easier to find than solid-star swingmen.
    I'll agree with you on that, the problem is that Randolph is Memphis' darling. The fans in Memphis LOVE Randolph. Around the league though, its a different story, he's seen more as the player he was, disruptive to team chemistry, lazy, etc.

    Rudy is the whipping boy in Memphis which matt mentioned in his original post. Add the fact that in the 2011 playoffs without Rudy they were in game 7 of the west semis and this year they didn't make it through the first round with Rudy and he's overpaid by an owner known to be frugal... It becomes obvious why - rightly or wrongly - Rudy would be the player on the block.

    Which brings us back to BC wanting to make big moves, the Grizz looking for cap relief from Rudy and matt's trade idea.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I don't get into the habit of conjuring up trades. You get caught up in it, you convince yourself that it's best for the franchise and when it doen't happen or the player of your affection goes elsewhere, there's either A: a lot of heartache or B: a lot of blaming/flaming the General Manager of your team because they didn't complete the trade you had conjured up.

    I will say this though - the Grizz would be better off trading Randolph than Gay. Solid 4's are easier to find than solid-star swingmen.
    I don't agree with A or B. The ideas are a point of discussion related to rumours swirling around the league. If the discussion was trading for Kevin Durant, I would most likely agree with you.

    A lot of Memphis fans will disagree with your statement on trading Randolph. The other issue with Randolph is what can he bring back in a trade? The idea of a solid 4 being easier to find than a solid swingman, if true, is something other teams will also be aware of. In trading Randolph the Grizzlies need to find a team that can live with his personal and injury history, his contract, and his age.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote The Coach wrote: View Post
    Am I the only one that is underwhelmed with the Gay and Iggy trade scenarios?

    I get that Colangelo needs to save his job and will probably give up some young assets to do so... but I thought we were rebuilding to develop a perennial playoff team that competes for championships. Neither Gay nor Iggy do this!! I like the guys and would selfishly like to see Gay on this team next year, because it brings instant gratification... but both Memphis and Philly are trying to IMPROVE their championship chances by REMOVING the guys we apparently are interested in? On any big market team these type of players would be considered a piece of the puzzle... not by any stretch THE piece. Boston a couple years ago used their young assets to acquire Garnett and Ray Allen... two future hall of famers. We are using our young assets to acquire... Rudy Gay (whose win share % is comparable to guys like Thaddeus Young). Here are his numbers:

    Can't embed table so here is link

    Matt, I totally agree with your argument and believe these are the type of guys that Colangelo is looking at, but I am just disappointed in the results of waiting for these last couple years. Our #8 pick could land the 8th pick in the 2006 draft, a draft in which Andrea went first and a draft that was not considered strong. We are trading for proven young talent that MIGHT be an all-star on our team.


    Signed,

    "small market team" blues
    Really good post.

    I agree with everything you said on Iguodala.

    As for Gay, the issue with Memphis is too many eggs in one basket (Gay-Conley-Randolph-Gasol) and an owner who refuses to go in to the luxury tax. If Memphis went in to the tax, a trade would be a non-issue because they could resign the free agents they have while using their exceptions to address the backup PG and C.

    When looking at what Boston did with Garnett and Allen, the Celtics acquired those guys when they were both 32 years of age. Gay is just 26 in August and I do think (and was a big part of the case for Gay) that he can still get better - especially on the defensive end - with a coach/teacher/motivator like Casey. In 6 years time, people might have a different view on Gay... they might not too as it is an unknown.

    As for trading the #8 pick, it is not an easy decision by any means but nothing is guaranteed on the career potential of a draft pick. Just as he could become an all-star, he could be a total bust.

  11. #31
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I don't agree with A or B. The ideas are a point of discussion related to rumours swirling around the league. If the discussion was trading for Kevin Durant, I would most likely agree with you.

    A lot of Memphis fans will disagree with your statement on trading Randolph. The other issue with Randolph is what can he bring back in a trade? The idea of a solid 4 being easier to find than a solid swingman, if true, is something other teams will also be aware of. In trading Randolph the Grizzlies need to find a team that can live with his personal and injury history, his contract, and his age.
    Wait for the free agent smoke to clear and you'll have a better idea of who needs what. Randolph, although has had personal demons, could bring just as much in terms of talent and cap space back. Some team is going to fall in love with the fact that he's not far removed from being an all-star and a member of the 3rd all nba team.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter AJ360's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I don't get into the habit of conjuring up trades. You get caught up in it, you convince yourself that it's best for the franchise and when it doen't happen or the player of your affection goes elsewhere, there's either A: a lot of heartache or B: a lot of blaming/flaming the General Manager of your team because they didn't complete the trade you had conjured up.
    Sorry but during the off season (hell, even during the regular season) speculating and sharing ideas is all we've got.

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Wait for the free agent smoke to clear and you'll have a better idea of who needs what. Randolph, although has had personal demons, could bring just as much in terms of talent and cap space back. Some team is going to fall in love with the fact that he's not far removed from being an all-star and a member of the 3rd all nba team.
    Waiting for the free agent smoke to clear is extremely disadvantageous to both Toronto and Memphis.

    Toronto will not be able to use cap space via a trade without renouncing exceptions.

    Memphis will have been a tax payer and lost out on revenue sharing plus the possible opportunity to add salary via trade in the same situation as Toronto currently finds itself (space to acquire via a trade prior to July 1st).

    You could be right on Randolph but a team also might have a hard time forgetting his micro-fracture surgery a few years ago and torn MCL this year.

    Even hypothetically speaking that Memphis could get better trade value for Randolph (which I do not believe), the Memphis fan base would lose their collective sh!t if Randolph was traded. Gay is already Memphis-Bargnani and Randolph is hands down fan favourite.

  14. #34
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote AJ360 wrote: View Post
    Sorry but during the off season (hell, even during the regular season) speculating and sharing ideas is all we've got.
    I never said you shouldn't do it. I just said I don't get into that habit. You can make up trades all you like, go nuts. Just please make sure that they're in the trade section/thread. That's all I ask.

  15. #35
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Waiting for the free agent smoke to clear is extremely disadvantageous to both Toronto and Memphis.

    Toronto will not be able to use cap space via a trade without renouncing exceptions.

    Memphis will have been a tax payer and lost out on revenue sharing plus the possible opportunity to add salary via trade in the same situation as Toronto currently finds itself (space to acquire via a trade prior to July 1st).

    You could be right on Randolph but a team also might have a hard time forgetting his micro-fracture surgery a few years ago and torn MCL this year.

    Even hypothetically speaking that Memphis could get better trade value for Randolph (which I do not believe), the Memphis fan base would lose their collective sh!t if Randolph was traded. Gay is already Memphis-Bargnani and Randolph is hands down fan favourite.
    Very well could be. However, I don't believe that Memphis will run to the fax machines to complete the paperwork for a James Johnson-Ed Davis-#8 pick for Rudy Gay.
    Johnson had a run in with his coach and was benched, Davis somewhat regressed and the #8 pick, well, the Raptors already made it known that they would seriously entertain offers for it if it weren't in the top-3. Seems somewhat, well, odd weird that the Grizzlies would actually accept that - and I don't think they would. Mind you, as a Raptors fan, I wouldn't complain if that were the price because it's amazing from our standpoint, but it's crappy from Memphis' standpoint.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Very well could be. However, I don't believe that Memphis will run to the fax machines to complete the paperwork for a James Johnson-Ed Davis-#8 pick for Rudy Gay.
    Johnson had a run in with his coach and was benched, Davis somewhat regressed and the #8 pick, well, the Raptors already made it known that they would seriously entertain offers for it if it weren't in the top-3. Seems somewhat, well, odd weird that the Grizzlies would actually accept that - and I don't think they would. Mind you, as a Raptors fan, I wouldn't complain if that were the price because it's amazing from our standpoint, but it's crappy from Memphis' standpoint.
    That is a fair assessment.

    What if Toronto included a protected 2014 pick? What if a third team was brought in? What if Toronto does a little manoeuvring prior to a proposed trade and gets some other players to include?

    Also what do the Grizzlies do with the financial savings? They re-sign one of Arthur/Speights and Mayo. They sign a good backup PG. Keeping Gay causes them to be unable to do these things.

    The logic might be flawed on my end but accepting the trade Toronto could offer might be better thought of as:

    Gay for JJ, ED, #8, Mayo, Speights, back up PG, player added prior to July 1st with cap space.



    Time will tell what actually happens.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic Starter connected's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The logic might be flawed on my end
    I remember last year there was a lot of talk of Rudy Gay to Raps, Cavs, Philly but Heisley was insistent that Gay wasn't going anywhere.

    The Grizzlies early exit from the playoffs, Gay's increasing pay cheque and RFA's needed to be signed may have changed the situation but I haven't seen any rumours of Gay being on the trading block.

    I'm with Mango on this ... I think you may have just convinced yourself that this is a real possibility. I think it would make more sense for Memphis to let Mayo walk, see how the draft plays out and wait till next year where they could easily trade Gay for a young proven talent, a six man [mayo-type] player + expiring contracts

    Our financial flexibility gives us incentive to make a deal before July 1 but not necessarily the Grizzlies

    We would be better off debating the benefits of trying to pry Mayo away at a reasonable contract without giving up assets rather than in-depth trade scenarios for Gay. Mayo 24mil 4 year contract?

    Kudos to you if it actually happens though

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote connected wrote: View Post
    I remember last year there was a lot of talk of Rudy Gay to Raps, Cavs, Philly but Heisley was insistent that Gay wasn't going anywhere.

    The Grizzlies early exit from the playoffs, Gay's increasing pay cheque and RFA's needed to be signed may have changed the situation but I haven't seen any rumours of Gay being on the trading block.

    I'm with Mango on this ... I think you may have just convinced yourself that this is a real possibility. I think it would make more sense for Memphis to let Mayo walk, see how the draft plays out and wait till next year where they could easily trade Gay for a young proven talent, a six man [mayo-type] player + expiring contracts

    Our financial flexibility gives us incentive to make a deal before July 1 but not necessarily the Grizzlies

    We would be better off debating the benefits of trying to pry Mayo away at a reasonable contract without giving up assets rather than in-depth trade scenarios for Gay. Mayo 24mil 4 year contract?

    Kudos to you if it actually happens though
    The title of the thread is the case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors. I have no idea if it is a possibility or not. Without being a GM, I have no idea what is likely or possible.

    What I did (or what I intended to do) was provide a reason why Toronto and its fans would want to trade for him.

    There has been speculation based on Heisley's comments that financial decisions are coming for the Grizzlies.

    If Memphis had another deal lined up (or a 3rd team was included in the trade) Memphis could have reason to make a trade prior to July 1st. If HoopsHype.com payroll figures are correct, they also have to shed $130K in salary prior to July 1st to not be a tax team.

    There is a free agency 2012 thread to discuss signing Mayo.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Starter connected's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    What I did (or what I intended to do) was provide a reason why Toronto and its fans would want to trade for him.
    I understood that for your original post but wanted to be the devils advocate. You have made some good points and I would like Gay in Toronto but there a quite a few players under contract that cases could be made for (sticking to SFs - JSmith [for financial flexibility - semi-rebuild], WChandler [playing behind gallo], WMathews, DWilliams [if beasley is resigned])

    A lot of these points could be duplicated in a "The case for Loul Deng to Raps" with Rose contract kicking in, boozer and noah already getting big pay cheques and an early exit this year. Omer needs to be signed and they are now targeting kidd/nash http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap...In_Free_Agency

    BC has always been interested in Deng and he has a more reasonable contract - since they are looking for pg help Calderon may fit that need

    It gets complicated trying to create potential trade scenarios and whether the other team would need/want our assets without a rumour of those players being on the trading block or assumed value

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Rookie JalenRose5's Avatar
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    Great in depth analysis. I am 100% on board for acquiring Rudy Gay via Trade. He is already better than EVERY player on the Raptors. I don't think people realize how good Rudy Gay is. He is arguably the 3rd best small forward in the league, at 6'8-6'9, he can jump through the gym and he can shoot the ball. If you put him on the Raptors Team next season we are instantly top 5 in the Eastern Conference in my opinion. He will be at his peak for the next 5-6 seasons and we can definitely lure more free agents to Toronto with his presence.

    Calderon (Lowry)
    Derozan
    Gay
    Bargnani
    Valanciunas

    Salami and Cheese All Day!

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