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The case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors: Heisley speaks to rumours (277)

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  • #91
    jimmie wrote: View Post
    I'd still prefer Batum over Gay, personally. I'm not -against- Gay, per se, but I think NB is better value. He's a better defensive player right now, and has shown comparable ability offensively in bursts, and would come cheaper -- if Portland is willing to let him go. I'd rather (over)pay Batum $33M/3 years than I would Gay $54M/3 years.

    I also like Batum better from a chemistry standpoint. He's not a star player already, so he won't come in thinking he's the franchise, the way Gay would simply based on his salary and his role in Memphis.

    I'm not sure how likely Portland is to let Batum go, though -- if they want a player, they've proven they'll overpay to keep them.
    I also really like Batum. I would love to find a way to add both Gay and Batum, but that's probably being too greedy.

    For me, one of my thoughts on acquiring Gay via trade, was that it also gives the Raptors an opportunity to unload some contracts and clear up some positional logjams at the same time. If the trade includes JJ and either Amir/Davis (regardless what else is included), it would make the cap hit more manageable and define both the PF (Bargnani, Amir/Davis) and SF (Gay, Kleiza) rotations.

    If Batum is acquired via free agency, the Raptors would be left with a lot of salary being paid to 3rd string players. Of course they could find other trades to rid themselves of the salary hit, but I'm not sure how they'd do it without taking on salary in return. One obvious option would be to use JJ and Amir/Davis to move up in the draft - either from #8 or possibly from #37 - which might then make a Batum signing more advantageous than a trade for Gay.

    All the Batum talk could very well be moot, as I expect Portland to match just about any offer. I'd be worried about trading away assets in the hopes of signing Batum, just to have Portland match, then being out the assets you would've used to trade for Gay.

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    • #92
      jimmie wrote: View Post
      I'd still prefer Batum over Gay, personally. I'm not -against- Gay, per se, but I think NB is better value. He's a better defensive player right now, and has shown comparable ability offensively in bursts, and would come cheaper -- if Portland is willing to let him go. I'd rather (over)pay Batum $33M/3 years than I would Gay $54M/3 years.

      I also like Batum better from a chemistry standpoint. He's not a star player already, so he won't come in thinking he's the franchise, the way Gay would simply based on his salary and his role in Memphis.

      I'm not sure how likely Portland is to let Batum go, though -- if they want a player, they've proven they'll overpay to keep them.
      I would agree with paying Batum 3/33 versus Gay but no one knows what Portland will or will not do in terms of matching. Personally, I think they match anything. No team will offer a max deal.

      Also going after Batum means all the exceptions would be renounced along with Bayless and Gray.

      Acquiring Gay gives the Raptors many more options - although it does result in losing #8.

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      • #93
        Does it though? Does it?
        @sweatpantsjer

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        • #94
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          I would agree with paying Batum 3/33 versus Gay but no one knows what Portland will or will not do in terms of matching. Personally, I think they match anything. No team will offer a max deal.

          Also going after Batum means all the exceptions would be renounced along with Bayless and Gray.

          Acquiring Gay gives the Raptors many more options - although it does result in losing #8.
          One really intriguing part about making a deal with Memphis ahead of (or during) the draft, is that it could enable the Raps to maintain the $7M TPE (from Barbosa trade) beyond July 1st. Who knows, maybe they trade for Gay and could still make an additional move for a player like Chandler... as you said, so many options by going the trade route and adding salary.

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          • #95
            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            One really intriguing part about making a deal with Memphis ahead of (or during) the draft, is that it could enable the Raps to maintain the $7M TPE (from Barbosa trade) beyond July 1st. Who knows, maybe they trade for Gay and could still make an additional move for a player like Chandler... as you said, so many options by going the trade route and adding salary.
            That $7.6M TPE can also be used in a sign and trade.

            Comment


            • #96
              One thing I find interesting about these sorts of deals is the fluidity of the value of the lottery pick depending on the team it's being traded to. Thinking back to the Jermaine O'neal trade, I don't actually recall whether Indiana coveted the 17th pick as "the rights to Roy Hibbert, who they'd been scouting" or if it was just a placeholder to sweeten the pot. Or as another example, the 15th pick of last years draft had much more value to the spurs when they realised they could get Kawhi Leonard with it -- the 15th pick itself probably wasn't something they particularly cared about.

              So to tie this to the current deal: I wonder if (hope that) there are any players that Memphis might actually be interested in that could be available at 8 that might make this deal more enticing, and more likely to go down on draft night. I think that the value they see (financials notwithstanding -- despite their importance) in the package JJ + Davis + 8th will be largely dependent on who they think they can get with #8.

              Remember, there's a reason we're not in an uproar about giving it up -- it's a pretty faceless pick atm.

              Comment


              • #97
                themasao wrote: View Post
                One thing I find interesting about these sorts of deals is the fluidity of the value of the lottery pick depending on the team it's being traded to. Thinking back to the Jermaine O'neal trade, I don't actually recall whether Indiana coveted the 17th pick as "the rights to Roy Hibbert, who they'd been scouting" or if it was just a placeholder to sweeten the pot. Or as another example, the 15th pick of last years draft had much more value to the spurs when they realised they could get Kawhi Leonard with it -- the 15th pick itself probably wasn't something they particularly cared about.

                So to tie this to the current deal: I wonder if (hope that) there are any players that Memphis might actually be interested in that could be available at 8 that might make this deal more enticing, and more likely to go down on draft night. I think that the value they see (financials notwithstanding -- despite their importance) in the package JJ + Davis + 8th will be largely dependent on who they think they can get with #8.

                Remember, there's a reason we're not in an uproar about giving it up -- it's a pretty faceless pick atm.
                Great points.

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                • #98
                  As a follow up. I knew Memphis had backup point guard issues, but I didn't realise how serious they were. My first thought is that if Lillard is on the board at 8, Memphis would eat this pick up. My second thought is that they have such a hole at point guard that they might not want a rookie being the number 2 option.

                  Lol @ Gilbert Arenas + Josh Selby -- that's reminiscent of Ukic + Solomon (okay, maybe not that bad....maybe nothing will ever be THAT bad...)

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    themasao wrote: View Post
                    One thing I find interesting about these sorts of deals is the fluidity of the value of the lottery pick depending on the team it's being traded to. Thinking back to the Jermaine O'neal trade, I don't actually recall whether Indiana coveted the 17th pick as "the rights to Roy Hibbert, who they'd been scouting" or if it was just a placeholder to sweeten the pot. Or as another example, the 15th pick of last years draft had much more value to the spurs when they realised they could get Kawhi Leonard with it -- the 15th pick itself probably wasn't something they particularly cared about.

                    So to tie this to the current deal: I wonder if (hope that) there are any players that Memphis might actually be interested in that could be available at 8 that might make this deal more enticing, and more likely to go down on draft night. I think that the value they see (financials notwithstanding -- despite their importance) in the package JJ + Davis + 8th will be largely dependent on who they think they can get with #8.

                    Remember, there's a reason we're not in an uproar about giving it up -- it's a pretty faceless pick atm.
                    Valid points. The prospect of adding Rudy Gay and getting back the #25 pick, while freeing up logjams at PF & SF, are also pretty good reasons for Raptors fans to accept trading away the #8 pick.

                    Lillard was exactly who I was thinking Memphis might covet in the #8 slot.

                    Comment


                    • themasao wrote: View Post
                      As a follow up. I knew Memphis had backup point guard issues, but I didn't realise how serious they were. My first thought is that if Lillard is on the board at 8, Memphis would eat this pick up. My second thought is that they have such a hole at point guard that they might not want a rookie being the number 2 option.

                      Lol @ Gilbert Arenas + Josh Selby -- that's reminiscent of Ukic + Solomon (okay, maybe not that bad....maybe nothing will ever be THAT bad...)
                      Selby is going to be good, he's just really green. I wouldn't be surprised if he's the #2 next year and challenging for starter in a couple years.
                      @sweatpantsjer

                      Comment


                      • I have to be honest, I didn't really read the list of reasons why this was a good idea...I just read the title. I think Rudy Gay is a great player and if DC got to him to become more of a defensive specialist, he would be fantastic.

                        Comment


                        • im sure casey can squeeze some more D out of him but i dunno if he'd ever be Lebron or Kobe good. any above average wing defender would be a upgrade, really.
                          @sweatpantsjer

                          Comment


                          • Prime wrote:
                            Sorry, I didn't recognize you there, Mr.Colangelo.
                            Until he proves that he can, this is just baseless banter.

                            Hey let's throw some more ad hominems out there, shall we? Here's one: I heard your mom is just as flexible!
                            Agree on all points. But it seems "clearly you are giving opinions which you have nothing to back with - and that is fine. I thought that originally but at least now it is confirmed."

                            I think your optimistic disposition has clouded your judgement. The state of the roster is irrelevant to this discussion until Casey proves he can make do with actual talent.
                            Regardless what happens before or after, trades should somewhat be considered in a vacuum. If any of DeRozan, JJ, Amir, Ed and #8 pick are traded for Gay, he would be the most talented player in the trade, who is vastly more talented than any player likely to be available @ #8 or is realistically gettable on the free agent market. Who cares what other domino-effect deals need to be made, whether it be via trade, draft or free agency? Toronto still gets the best available player in that deal. Gay is a very good offensive player and, from everything I've ever heard, a pretty good defender too. Does he solve all the Raptors woes? No, he's one player. But he'd immediately become one of (if not THE) best all around players on the roster. I don't understand the rationale for all the venom being spewed over an idea being proposed.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Similar to the thread for the case for Steve Nash to the Raptors, I offer the case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors.

                              Before I talk about the Raptors acquiring Gay, it is important to talk about why he is a likely trade target. Memphis is a very good NBA team. Unfortunately if they have not already done so, they are about to hit a wall. Here are reasons why:

                              1) Finances. The Grizzlies have $54M tied up in Gay, Randolph, Gasol, and Conley. They have $62.4M tied up in 9 players for next year - and that does not include a proven backup PG, back up PF or C, bench scoring, or players capable of shooting from 3. The $62.4M also does not include the qualifying offers to Mayo, Speights, or Arthur nor the guaranteed contract of the 25th pick in the draft. 4 of these players makes the team an automatic luxury tax team if those offers are made and pick is kept.

                              Straight from Michael Heisley's Canadian anthem butchering mouth:



                              2) Piggy-backing on the finances, the Grizzlies need depth - specifically a backup PG, back up C, three point shooting, and bench scoring. Watching the Grizzlies play in the playoffs the last 2 seasons depth was the difference. If the Grizzlies hope to push beyond the 2nd round of the playoffs, these needs have to be addressed. The problem is since Heisley is not going to be a taxpayer (and miss out on the revenue sharing as a result) they need to address these areas with just $7.9M of salary.

                              3) The argument of Gay-Randolph needing more time together is a false one.



                              Gay and Randolph can co-exist. There are three problems with the pairing though:

                              a) they are always going to be one injury to or one bad game from Gay-Gasol-Conley-Randolph away from not being their best,
                              b) without paying luxury tax, they will have little depht to balance the attack, and
                              c) to get the most out of one of Gay or Randolph, the other will have to take a back seat - and at $16M-plus per season, that is an expensive seat.

                              4) Of their four large contracts, Gay is going to return the most value because: Gasol fills the toughest position in basketball (i.e. he is untouchable), Randolph is oldest with a sketchy past and owed $50M over the next 3 years, and Conley is a reasonable contract. Being a small market, non-luxury tax team the Grizzlies need depth over star power. They are going to be a better team with a strong back up PG and C and role players who can space the floor.

                              5) Gay is the Andrea Bargnani of the Memphis fan base. For many fans the guy can do no right. If he has a good game and loses, they should have gone to Randolph more. If they go to Randolph, he is a bum because he is getting paid max money to put up less than max production. With Memphis taking Randolph on as their adopted son, Gay (and as a result Memphis) is in a lose-lose situation.


                              So Memphis might trade Gay but why should Toronto be the trade partner with Memphis?

                              1) Toronto can provide what Memphis needs: role players, high draft pick, and financial relief.

                              Looking around the league there are rumours of Golden State wanting a star SF. GSW could provide the 7th pick, Klay Thompson, and Dorrell Wright. Unfortunately the numbers would not work and another contract would have to be added to make it work: the options would be Andris Biedrins ($18M, 2 years) or Richard Jefferson ($21.2M, 2 years). Jefferson creates a backlog at SF (and an expensive one at that) with still no backup PG or C. Biendris provides a backup C but one who averages 1.7 points and 3.7 rebounds in 16 minutes but shoots 11.1% (no mistype) from the FT line.

                              Stephen A. Smith is adamant that Philly is going to look to trade Igoudala and mentioned a swap of Gay and AI as a possibility. Personally, I don't see that trade helping Memphis. It still leaves them with numerous holes in their lineup and gives them just an extra $1.7M to fill out their roster. AI's production and health has been in decline the last few seasons.

                              Sacramento is the team - other than Toronto that makes the most sense - to trade for Rudy Gay. They have cap space to take on his contract, a high draft pick (#5), and a young player (Tyreke Evans) to send back. I do see problems for both sides though. For Memphis, Tyreke Evans is going to be looking to get PAID next year. That puts them back in a similar situation they are already in - especially if he has a return to rookie season production. For Sacramento, ownership is in a bitter battle that will likely end in relocation of the franchise and ownership is also suffering financially. Could Sacramento take on Gay and his $54M contract over the next 3 years?

                              As for Toronto, a package of James Johnson, Ed Davis, and #8 pick provides depth to the roster, a possible starting replacement in JJ and/or the pick. This trade would also provide them with $7M in cap space prior to July 1st. If the trade was made with enough time before July 1st, they might be able to use that space prior to July 1st to get another player that fits a need (or 3rd team could be brought in on the trade). The Grizzlies could then look at keeping their own free agents after July 1st and/or using the MLE to round out their roster.

                              To wrap up #1, I'm not sure the Grizzlies want what Toronto would be offering but, outside of Sacramento, I am having difficulty finding another trade partner that would offer as many benefits as the Raptors.

                              2) Toronto needs a dynamic scoring wing. I do not consider DeRozan a dynamic scorer because he has difficulty creating for himself and is inconsistent from deep. Gay would provide Toronto with something they have not had since Wince left. He did shoot a career low of 32% from three last year but considering the abnormal schedule and return from shoulder injury, I think there is reason to believe he would return closer to his career average (and if lucky the 39.6% prior to his shoulder injury).

                              3) Gay is only turning 26 in August. He is entering his prime. His biggest knock has been inconsistency on defense. He has all the tools, it comes down to motivation and teaching. Dwane Casey is a great teacher and motivator. I think Gay could take the next step as a near all-star to a legit all-star in Toronto.

                              4) Rudy Gay is overpaid but the Raptors are not getting a player of his calibre without overpaying to begin with via free agency. Getting a talent such as him through the draft is hardly a guarantee and would take time to develop. With the current salary cap situation, Toronto would be able to take on Gay's contract with minimal short term or long term ill-effects. The highest paid players currently on Toronto are Calderon ($10.5M expiring after 12-13) and Bargnani ($10M, $11M, and $12M over next three years). Given Gay is only 26 and the remarkable influence Casey was able to have on Bargnani, after a few months of working with Casey, Gay might not be considered overpaid.

                              5) Colangelo's comment suggest big things to happen this summer. Trading for Rudy Gay would be B-I-G in my opinion. TheScore.ca RaptorsBlog sums it up nicely:



                              6) Toronto would have a young, dynamic and exciting front court for at least the next 3 years of Gay, Bargs, and JV with solid possible reserves in Kleiza, Amir, and Gray (assuming ED and JJ were dealt).

                              7) Giving up a top 10 draft pick is never easy but it appears the Raptors might be able to get another draft pick fairly easily if they wish to:



                              It is also important to remember that many feel Valanciunas would be the consensus #2 pick if he were in this draft. Plus the Raptors have an early 2nd round pick that might yield a promising player given the depth of the draft.

                              8) Colangelo was very high on Gay in the 2006 draft. It was him or Bargnani from what I recall.



                              If I left anything out on the case for Rudy Gay to Toronto add a post.

                              I can think of arguments against Gay coming to Toronto but I figure I'll leave that to others because I think the positives far outweigh the negatives.
                              This is an exceptional analysis.

                              I thought that they could let Mayo walk which might solve some of the financial troubles but as you've said the number that they are looking at is calculated before qualifying offer for Mayo is factored in.

                              Tough call. If I could move Randolph instead of Gay I would do it. I love Z-Bo but I think as long as they have GAsol they are in good shape underneath the boards and maybe you let Arthur, Speights and Cunningham show you if the have game. As much angst as Gay might create in the Memphis fan base he's still the player the coach is looking to in crunch time which says something.

                              As for the Raps, I don't like it. Not because I don't think Gay is a solid player, but it would be indicating that they feel there is no need to further rebuilding and Gay will only make this team a mid-level team and your financial "flexibility" is now gone. If Andrea is part of the deal I would be more inclined to do it because you would have a real primary scoring option, but Memphis would not want to take back the salary.

                              Are we looking for a few years of 7 or 8th seed playoff runs or are we trynig to build something meaningful and long lasting? Colangelo has NO plan. Never did and never will It changes year to year depending on his mood and even if they do make a trade for Gay we will never see a consistent winner in this city until a GM has the patience to try and build a proper foundation and work on acquiring young talent that can grow together.

                              Colangelo is not the man for that job. His ego and job status won't allow him to think this way.

                              Comment


                              • sleepz wrote: View Post
                                This is an exceptional analysis.

                                I thought that they could let Mayo walk which might solve some of the financial troubles but as you've said the number that they are looking at is calculated before qualifying offer for Mayo is factored in.

                                Tough call. If I could move Randolph instead of Gay I would do it. I love Z-Bo but I think as long as they have GAsol they are in good shape underneath the boards and maybe you let Arthur, Speights and Cunningham show you if the have game. As much angst as Gay might create in the Memphis fan base he's still the player the coach is looking to in crunch time which says something.

                                As for the Raps, I don't like it. Not because I don't think Gay is a solid player, but it would be indicating that they feel there is no need to further rebuilding and Gay will only make this team a mid-level team and your financial "flexibility" is now gone. If Andrea is part of the deal I would be more inclined to do it because you would have a real primary scoring option, but Memphis would not want to take back the salary.

                                Are we looking for a few years of 7 or 8th seed playoff runs or are we trynig to build something meaningful and long lasting? Colangelo has NO plan. Never did and never will It changes year to year depending on his mood and even if they do make a trade for Gay we will never see a consistent winner in this city until a GM has the patience to try and build a proper foundation and work on acquiring young talent that can grow together.

                                Colangelo is not the man for that job. His ego and job status won't allow him to think this way.
                                I can see where you are coming from. But, here are somethings that you would be so kind as to consider;

                                -it depends on how long you think this rebuilding process should be and where you belive we are in the rebuilding process.

                                - Think about the pressure Colangelo is under. Now, he's heading into year three of a popularly believed 5 year rebuilding process. With optimism probably the best thing going for the team.

                                - Rudy Gay, okay, lets say he only brings us to mediocrity; 1. Is that not something better than what we have now?
                                2. Is that not moving forward in the rebuilding procees?
                                3. Is Gay going to be the only piece added through trade or free agency? 4. Is there not a whole lot of potential improvement from the guys already on this roster including Val?

                                - if the flexibility is gone financially. Does that not leave trade and draft?

                                -What is the right roster to grow together and how de we get that roster?

                                -aren't we passed rebuilding and into building?

                                - name me a player we could acquire better than gay possibly on the open market that would make us better than mediocre and less to give up than for gay?

                                It seems to me you are thinking were just gonna run into another bosh era. I dont think that is the case. I'm not quite sure what you are looking for, it seems like you are just expecting for the raps to magically fall into a gold mine.
                                If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                                Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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