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The case for Rudy Gay to the Raptors: Heisley speaks to rumours (277)

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  • I dunno I think we could get Rudy without giving up our lotto pick
    @sweatpantsjer

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    • sleepz wrote: View Post
      This is an exceptional analysis.

      I thought that they could let Mayo walk which might solve some of the financial troubles but as you've said the number that they are looking at is calculated before qualifying offer for Mayo is factored in.

      Tough call. If I could move Randolph instead of Gay I would do it. I love Z-Bo but I think as long as they have GAsol they are in good shape underneath the boards and maybe you let Arthur, Speights and Cunningham show you if the have game. As much angst as Gay might create in the Memphis fan base he's still the player the coach is looking to in crunch time which says something.

      As for the Raps, I don't like it. Not because I don't think Gay is a solid player, but it would be indicating that they feel there is no need to further rebuilding and Gay will only make this team a mid-level team and your financial "flexibility" is now gone. If Andrea is part of the deal I would be more inclined to do it because you would have a real primary scoring option, but Memphis would not want to take back the salary.

      Are we looking for a few years of 7 or 8th seed playoff runs or are we trynig to build something meaningful and long lasting? Colangelo has NO plan. Never did and never will It changes year to year depending on his mood and even if they do make a trade for Gay we will never see a consistent winner in this city until a GM has the patience to try and build a proper foundation and work on acquiring young talent that can grow together.

      Colangelo is not the man for that job. His ego and job status won't allow him to think this way.
      Thanks for the compliment.

      Regarding Memphis, with Randolph the issue becomes who will take him on with his personal and injury trouble in addition to his large contract. And if a team was willing to take him on, what would they give up? Gay returns more assets, in my opinion. The other issue is who with financial flexibility takes on Randolph? I think Toronto and Sacramento can be ruled out. After July 1st I'm sure things open up but I'm struggling to think of a team. Then there is the issue of the fan base - Randolph seems to be beloved in Memphis.

      Regarding Toronto, I am struggling to think of a better player possibly available than Gay and he is just turning 26 in August. People talk about Batum but he is restricted. I broke the numbers down in another thread but the jist of it is after this summer, the Raptors have no financial flexibility moving forward without significant deals. Even if Jose walks, they have $3M in cap space next summer for free agents. Building through the draft is certainly an option but it is not a guarantee. This is the 4th lottery pick in 4 years and where are the Raptors?

      As for Colangelo, I think he has a plan. Yes it might change but better to be dynamic than static. The circumstances with the new CBA has changed. 2 wins separated the Raptors from an 8 pick and a possible top 4-5 pick. JV appears to be a franchise centre - time will tell. Bargnani - well Bargnani is Bargnani but he certainly offers more promise than a year ago. Throw Gay in the mix. DeMar struggles as the focal point but appears to be a solid 3rd option. There are role players in place at PF, SF, and C (if Gay is resigned). There are exceptions in play that could yield solid contributors - especially considering the Raptors needs and the players available this year. I do not view acquiring Gay as a singular move.

      I do respect your view on Colangelo. The homerun swings that have been strikeouts over the years certainly add credibility to your doubt and lack of faith. Personally, I do have faith in Colangelo but I have more faith in Casey. I think Colangelo hit a homerun hiring Casey. I think better days are dead set ahead namely because for the first time in a long time the right head coach is in place. This is all just my opinion though and it shouldn't be taken as anything more - hopefully no one does. Time will certainly tell!

      Comment


      • Would you guys prefer we draft PJ3 or trade for Rudy?

        I don't know if this has been discussed here or not and I can't be arsed to read all 6 pages on this thread

        PJ3 has a higher ceiling but it's still potential anyways, no guarantee that he'll be a star or a bust. So the process of rebuilding is slower and is riskier.

        Rudy Gay commands a hefty amount of money for contract and doesn't look like he'll improve significantly anymore, or even worse, maybe he's bumped into his ceiling. And we have to give up more for him, probably including our draft pick. But he is undoubtedly a major upgrade from anything we have at 3 right now.

        I'm leaning towards PJ3. Would love to hear out some of your thoughts
        Last edited by flamingtimbits; Wed Jun 6, 2012, 03:24 AM.

        Comment


        • flamingtimbits wrote: View Post
          Would you guys prefer we draft PJ3 or trade for Rudy?

          I don't know if this has been discussed here or not and I can't be arsed to read all 6 pages on this thread

          PJ3 has a higher ceiling but it's still potential anyways, no guarantee that he'll be a star or a bust. So the process of rebuilding is slower and is riskier.

          Rudy Gay commands a hefty amount of money for contract and doesn't look like he'll improve significantly anymore, or even worse, maybe he's bumped into his ceiling. And we have to give up more for him, probably including our draft pick. But he is undoubtedly a major upgrade from anything we have at 3 right now.

          I'm leaning towards PJ3. Would to hear out some of your thoughts
          gay because he is a known commodity that is ready to contribute right now and makes our team instantly better.

          Comment


          • LBF wrote: View Post
            I can see where you are coming from. But, here are somethings that you would be so kind as to consider;

            -it depends on how long you think this rebuilding process should be and where you belive we are in the rebuilding process.

            - Think about the pressure Colangelo is under. Now, he's heading into year three of a popularly believed 5 year rebuilding process. With optimism probably the best thing going for the team.

            - Rudy Gay, okay, lets say he only brings us to mediocrity; 1. Is that not something better than what we have now?
            2. Is that not moving forward in the rebuilding procees?
            3. Is Gay going to be the only piece added through trade or free agency? 4. Is there not a whole lot of potential improvement from the guys already on this roster including Val?

            - if the flexibility is gone financially. Does that not leave trade and draft?

            -What is the right roster to grow together and how de we get that roster?

            -aren't we passed rebuilding and into building?

            - name me a player we could acquire better than gay possibly on the open market that would make us better than mediocre and less to give up than for gay?

            It seems to me you are thinking were just gonna run into another bosh era. I dont think that is the case. I'm not quite sure what you are looking for, it seems like you are just expecting for the raps to magically fall into a gold mine.
            I understand your argument. The only way I believe we can build a solid team is through the draft.
            Talent is essential but you better have at least one exceptional player to compete.
            Gay is a good player don't get me wrong however Gay and JV (we'll have to see how good he becomes) and the
            rest of the other current roster is not rebuilding as your ability to add more talent will be hampered.

            I don't mind the losing over the next 3 years to try and accumulate more assets and eventually spend the money
            under the cap when you actually have a core with good to great potential. I don't feel this team would be there,
            or could get there with Gay on this team. Gay helps but he should be a solid number 2 on a contending team.
            All of this talk regarding him could be irrelevant anyway s we do not know if he is available regardless.

            I'd rather take my chances going the route of the draft. The OKC's(Durrant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Harden), Minnesota's(Love, Rubio, Williams) Sacramento's (Cousins, Evans, Thomas), Memphis(Gay, Conley, Gasol, Mayo), Portland(Aldridge, Batum, 2 lottery picks in this draft) are examples of the approach and route I believe we should take. Yes not all those teams are winners but they have young talent that with solid veterans could compete season after season

            Comment


            • ceez wrote: View Post
              I dunno I think we could get Rudy without giving up our lotto pick
              how? by trading all of our promising players? whats the point of that, then we'll be stuck with rudy gay with no one around him but scrubs

              Comment


              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                Thanks for the compliment.

                Regarding Memphis, with Randolph the issue becomes who will take him on with his personal and injury trouble in addition to his large contract. And if a team was willing to take him on, what would they give up? Gay returns more assets, in my opinion. The other issue is who with financial flexibility takes on Randolph? I think Toronto and Sacramento can be ruled out. After July 1st I'm sure things open up but I'm struggling to think of a team. Then there is the issue of the fan base - Randolph seems to be beloved in Memphis.

                Regarding Toronto, I am struggling to think of a better player possibly available than Gay and he is just turning 26 in August. People talk about Batum but he is restricted. I broke the numbers down in another thread but the jist of it is after this summer, the Raptors have no financial flexibility moving forward without significant deals. Even if Jose walks, they have $3M in cap space next summer for free agents. Building through the draft is certainly an option but it is not a guarantee. This is the 4th lottery pick in 4 years and where are the Raptors?

                As for Colangelo, I think he has a plan. Yes it might change but better to be dynamic than static. The circumstances with the new CBA has changed. 2 wins separated the Raptors from an 8 pick and a possible top 4-5 pick. JV appears to be a franchise centre - time will tell. Bargnani - well Bargnani is Bargnani but he certainly offers more promise than a year ago. Throw Gay in the mix. DeMar struggles as the focal point but appears to be a solid 3rd option. There are role players in place at PF, SF, and C (if Gay is resigned). There are exceptions in play that could yield solid contributors - especially considering the Raptors needs and the players available this year. I do not view acquiring Gay as a singular move.

                I do respect your view on Colangelo. The homerun swings that have been strikeouts over the years certainly add credibility to your doubt and lack of faith. Personally, I do have faith in Colangelo but I have more faith in Casey. I think Colangelo hit a homerun hiring Casey. I think better days are dead set ahead namely because for the first time in a long time the right head coach is in place. This is all just my opinion though and it shouldn't be taken as anything more - hopefully no one does. Time will certainly tell!
                I agree with your assessment on Casey. Start drafting players that fit his system.

                Sometimes there must be extended dark before the dawn. lol

                Colangelo has a subpar track record in hitting homerun's so take it slow even though his job might be on the line.
                Draft, let the cap space roll over. I'd have 2 rookies (JV and draft pick) in the starting 5 next year. The problem I've had with
                BC's lottery picks is I don't think they deserved or earned their minutes consistently. Even taking that into consideration the draft is a better option going forward imho.

                Comment


                • sleepz wrote: View Post

                  I don't mind the losing over the next 3 years to try and accumulate more assets and eventually spend the money
                  under the cap when you actually have a core with good to great potential. I don't feel this team would be there,
                  or could get there with Gay on this team. Gay helps but he should be a solid number 2 on a contending team.
                  All of this talk regarding him could be irrelevant anyway s we do not know if he is available regardless.

                  I'd rather take my chances going the route of the draft. The OKC's(Durrant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Harden), Minnesota's(Love, Rubio, Williams) Sacramento's (Cousins, Evans, Thomas), Memphis(Gay, Conley, Gasol, Mayo), Portland(Aldridge, Batum, 2 lottery picks in this draft) are examples of the approach and route I believe we should take. Yes not all those teams are winners but they have young talent that with solid veterans could compete season after season
                  i do mind losing for another 3 years. okc got so shit lucky it's not funny. you can add chicago to your list as they jumped from 9 to 1 to get rose, so built through the draft. sacremento is a mess. memphis got picks in the gasol trade and didn't draft randolf who brought about the biggest change to the team. portland is funny as they drafted oden and roy and got lucky with batum being a late pick who has proven as much as derozan in this league. even minnesota took shit for their draft history.

                  the time to make a move is now. i don't understand the whole #1 on the team has to be the best scorer or even the best at everything. only a select few teams get a kobe or duncan. and in that aspect we had a #1 in carter years ago and that brought about the dark times for this franchise. what we need are solid players who play a system and believe in each other. rudy gay along with bargnani and derozan have the scoring for this team done. around them they need shooters, rebounders and hustlers to move forward. you give it a try and if it doesn't work you start again.

                  to continuously put off going for it is ridiculous. you waste years of these players careers and years of the fans time.

                  Comment


                  • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                    how? by trading all of our promising players? whats the point of that, then we'll be stuck with rudy gay with no one around him but scrubs
                    Promising players eh
                    @sweatpantsjer

                    Comment


                    • sleepz wrote: View Post
                      I understand your argument. The only way I believe we can build a solid team is through the draft.
                      Talent is essential but you better have at least one exceptional player to compete.
                      Gay is a good player don't get me wrong however Gay and JV (we'll have to see how good he becomes) and the
                      rest of the other current roster is not rebuilding as your ability to add more talent will be hampered.

                      I don't mind the losing over the next 3 years to try and accumulate more assets and eventually spend the money
                      under the cap when you actually have a core with good to great potential. I don't feel this team would be there,
                      or could get there with Gay on this team. Gay helps but he should be a solid number 2 on a contending team.
                      All of this talk regarding him could be irrelevant anyway s we do not know if he is available regardless.

                      I'd rather take my chances going the route of the draft. The OKC's(Durrant, Westbrook, Ibaka, Harden), Minnesota's(Love, Rubio, Williams) Sacramento's (Cousins, Evans, Thomas), Memphis(Gay, Conley, Gasol, Mayo), Portland(Aldridge, Batum, 2 lottery picks in this draft) are examples of the approach and route I believe we should take. Yes not all those teams are winners but they have young talent that with solid veterans could compete season after season
                      Ok, but, I don't think we are going to be any worse than we are now.

                      How many guys potentially better than Gay are we drafting with the 8th overall pick.

                      You typed that not all Are winners. But, have good young talent.

                      Valanciunas, Derozan, Davis.

                      19,22,24 or something around those ages.

                      You have to take some risks before you get anywhere. All those teams have.
                      If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                      Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                      Comment


                      • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                        gay because he is a known commodity that is ready to contribute right now and makes our team instantly better.
                        I'm not jumping on the Rudy Gay bandwagon just yet. But if they decide to pull it off, I hope they have other plans in mind to supplement this. Cus I think just him alone won't do us no good. We'll be stuck in the #6-#10 seeding, leaving us with a bad pick and no shot at being the champs. If they can somehow snatch a good long term PG and some good pieces off the bench, then I'm in.

                        Kyle Lowry/Jerryd Bayless
                        DeMar Derozan/Ray Allen
                        Rudy Gay/Jeff Green
                        Andrea Bargnani/Ed Davis
                        Jonas Valanciunas/Omer Asik

                        Damn that looks good! Well one can only dream..

                        Imagine if the Raps win the finals, millions of people in the states will be like, "what in the world is going on, a canadian team lifting the trophy?"

                        Comment


                        • flamingtimbits wrote: View Post
                          Kyle Lowry/Jerryd Bayless
                          DeMar Derozan/Ray Allen
                          Rudy Gay/Jeff Green
                          Andrea Bargnani/Ed Davis
                          Jonas Valanciunas/Omer Asik

                          Damn that looks good! Well one can only dream..
                          Yeah, unfortunately, it's only dream. Somehow you managed to trade:

                          Jose, Kleiza, JJ, Amir, Ed, Forbes, #8, #37, #54 picks

                          to

                          Gay, Lowry, Jeff Green, Ray Allen and Asik

                          Congratulations! I announce you as GM of the year!
                          (Sorry for poor English )

                          Comment


                          • sleepz wrote: View Post
                            ...I don't mind the losing over the next 3 years to try and accumulate more assets and eventually spend the money under the cap when you actually have a core with good to great potential. ..
                            If the Raps lose enough for the next three years to get significant draft picks:

                            1. Colangelo is gone
                            2. Attendance at the games will be worse
                            3. Even TV fans like yourself won't bother watching, so ad revenue will be down
                            4. There is no guarantee that the picks will be worthwhile. See how many franchise altering picks happen every year.
                            5. You will embed a losing mentality into the team and it's reputation. What good free agents will you be able to attract?
                            6. Casey will leave in disgust.
                            7. The leagues penalty luxury tax will be far worse, precluding the ability to spend money.

                            The time is now. If not Gay, then someone else of similar or better calibre. And there aren't a lot available that would give the Raps the same options and flexibility.

                            Comment


                            • Miekenstien wrote: View Post
                              i do mind losing for another 3 years. okc got so shit lucky it's not funny. you can add chicago to your list as they jumped from 9 to 1 to get rose, so built through the draft. sacremento is a mess. memphis got picks in the gasol trade and didn't draft randolf who brought about the biggest change to the team. portland is funny as they drafted oden and roy and got lucky with batum being a late pick who has proven as much as derozan in this league. even minnesota took shit for their draft history.

                              the time to make a move is now. i don't understand the whole #1 on the team has to be the best scorer or even the best at everything. only a select few teams get a kobe or duncan. and in that aspect we had a #1 in carter years ago and that brought about the dark times for this franchise. what we need are solid players who play a system and believe in each other. rudy gay along with bargnani and derozan have the scoring for this team done. around them they need shooters, rebounders and hustlers to move forward. you give it a try and if it doesn't work you start again.

                              to continuously put off going for it is ridiculous. you waste years of these players careers and years of the fans time.
                              Carter brought about a dark time becuase he stopped playing hard. No one was saying that the years previous to that. In fact, many throughout the league thought we were going to be a consistently good team. The Raps team that had Carter and McGrady, even Kobe said he thought it was going to be Lakers vs. Raptors for years to come.

                              You can ache for the team that plays together mantra, but unless that team is talented there is a low ceiling of success and I'm not the type of fan that is happy with being the best of the bottom feeders. A core of Gay, Bargnani and DeRozan is a team I am not enthusiastic about. It's not a team going anywhere, longterm.

                              I'm not concerned with wasting the years of players who aren't all-star type talents or game changers that will help you win consistently. Maybe Gay has some ability in this regard, but so far Bargnani and Derozan have only shown they can put up average offensive numbers, below average defensive skill on a lottery team. There's nothing to get excited about with that.

                              Comment


                              • sleepz wrote: View Post
                                Carter brought about a dark time becuase he stopped playing hard. No one was saying that the years previous to that. In fact, many throughout the league thought we were going to be a consistently good team. The Raps team that had Carter and McGrady, even Kobe said he thought it was going to be Lakers vs. Raptors for years to come.

                                You can ache for the team that plays together mantra, but unless that team is talented there is a low ceiling of success and I'm not the type of fan that is happy with being the best of the bottom feeders. A core of Gay, Bargnani and DeRozan is a team I am not enthusiastic about. It's not a team going anywhere, longterm.

                                I'm not concerned with wasting the years of players who aren't all-star type talents or game changers that will help you win consistently. Maybe Gay has some ability in this regard, but so far Bargnani and Derozan have only shown they can put up average offensive numbers, below average defensive skill on a lottery team. There's nothing to get excited about with that.
                                that's right. no one was saying anything bad about carter but then the wheels fell off. i don't want to be dependent on anyone player like that again. i think that bargs has elite offensive abilities.

                                i also don't care about wasting players careers, but they do. no one is going to want to stay here or try hard when they are here if it is always "we just need to wait for a player who can play". i would much rather take a shot with what we have and then blow it up again later. you don't know until you try.

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