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Thread: Take on Okafor or Ariza's contract and get the 10th picK

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I disagree. Amir Johnson is a smart hardworking player who would still be happy if he rarely saw the rock. Ariza is not that. Amir is a better player than Ariza in my opinion.

    The Rockets got sick of him really fast after giving him a lot of money. Now another team wants to be rid of him bad enough to cough up a top ten lotto pick. This isn't raising alarms?
    Precisely. And I think the whole premise of this trade - to get the #10 pick - is off-base. First of all, the #8 may not even be included in a Gay trade. Memphis is trying to dump salary desperately; Toronto is in the driver's seat, they don't need to sweeten the pot. Ed Davis and stuff might even get it done, who knows?

    Even if they DO send the 8 to Memphis, they still don't need another lottery pick. They'll have Gay, and ostensibly an excellent shot at Nash or Dragic/Lowry. Their starting 5 would be set without really hurting their existing roster (whoever goes in the Gay trade). They probably still retain 2-2nd round picks... Why would you want to take on another 7M in salary for a guy who does you absolutely no good? He's a chucker with an over-inflated sense of his game, and any minutes he plays are taking away from developing someone else.
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  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Rookie badbob's Avatar
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    Just do it.......take on Ariza's contract and get the no. 10 pick as well. I think it would be a great deal for the Raptor's and they could take 2 quality players from the draft.

  3. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Here's my 10 cents.


    Name Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
    Trevor Ariza 26 NOH NBA 41 41 1350 4.5 10.7 0.417 0.8 2.3 0.333 2.1 2.7 0.775 1.1 4.6 5.7 3.6 1.8 0.7 2 1.9 11.8
    Nicolas Batum 23 POR NBA 59 34 1791 5.8 12.9 0.451 2.2 5.5 0.391 2.7 3.2 0.836 1.6 3.8 5.4 1.7 1.1 1.2 1.8 2.1 16.4
    James Johnson 24 TOR NBA 62 40 1561 5.4 11.9 0.45 0.4 1.4 0.317 1.9 2.7 0.704 1.7 5 6.7 2.8 1.6 1.9 2.3 4.1 13.1


    Name Age Tm Lg G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
    Trevor Ariza 26 NOH NBA 41 1350 14.2 0.496 0.453 3.7 15.1 9.5 16.8 2.8 1.5 14.5 18.4 100 103 0.5 1.7 2.2 0.078
    Nicolas Batum 23 POR NBA 59 1791 17.3 0.575 0.534 5.2 12.6 8.8 7.9 1.7 2.6 11.2 20.5 112 107 3.3 1.4 4.8 0.127
    James Johnson 24 TOR NBA 62 1561 14.5 0.498 0.468 5.6 16.2 11 13.9 2.4 4.4 15.1 20.2 97 100 0.1 2.5 2.6 0.079






    I think it really depends on what you can get/do with the number 10 pick. The above table compares Batum, Ariza, and JJ, based on per36 and advanced metrics.

    Batum is WAAAAY better offensively and in overall advanced stats (per, and ws/48). JJ and Ariza, are better rebounders and defenders and passers.


    After look at these stats, I'm not sure I still like Batum at 12+ mil/year

    JJ and Ariza are pretty much even in every category, although JJ has a slight edge in almost every category except passing and steals.

    JJ seems to win a heads up battle against Ariza, based on similar production, cheaper contract and younger age. However, we should keep in mind two factors.

    1) Ariza and Batum actually averaged about 36 minutes per game whereas as JJ only averaged about 26. We need to keep this in mind when we look at his per/36 stats. Do we think that he can play 36 minutes a game and be as productive as his current per36 stats imply? Casey seemed to feel the need to yank JJ on a regular basis and even put him in the dog house for a stretch after the all-star break. I'm not sure he has the mental component necessary to deliver consistently if giving more minutes.

    2) JJ will be a free agent at the end of next season with a QO of 3.9mil, what kind of contract do you think he will be offered? JJ at 2.9mil a season is a much better deal than Ariza at 7mil. But does JJ give you better value if he is making 4-5mil?

    if you're looking at JJ vs. Ariza straight up then I probably say stick with JJ, however getting Ariza and the number 10 for me makes it worth it. If Ariza had 3 or 4 years left I'd say no, but he only has 2 years left and the second is a player option which he may or may not exercise, and even if he does he is an expiring which may be used as trade bait.

    If we were to take on Ariza using our TPE we then have a lot of tradeable pieces.

    I do think it is a red flag that NO is trying to trade Ariza, but when you look at their contracts Okafor and Ariza are the only contracts that would still be on the books after next season (except of 2.5 for Jason Smith), and are leftovers from Chris Paul days. Although it does not look good on Ariza it seems to be more of an issue of regarding cleaning house for the new ownership and moving past the Chris Paul era.


    I definitely look at taking on Ariza, with the understanding that I could provide more tradeable value down the road.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  4. #44
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Here's my 10 cents.


    Name Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
    Trevor Ariza 26 NOH NBA 41 41 1350 4.5 10.7 0.417 0.8 2.3 0.333 2.1 2.7 0.775 1.1 4.6 5.7 3.6 1.8 0.7 2 1.9 11.8
    Nicolas Batum 23 POR NBA 59 34 1791 5.8 12.9 0.451 2.2 5.5 0.391 2.7 3.2 0.836 1.6 3.8 5.4 1.7 1.1 1.2 1.8 2.1 16.4
    James Johnson 24 TOR NBA 62 40 1561 5.4 11.9 0.45 0.4 1.4 0.317 1.9 2.7 0.704 1.7 5 6.7 2.8 1.6 1.9 2.3 4.1 13.1


    Name Age Tm Lg G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
    Trevor Ariza 26 NOH NBA 41 1350 14.2 0.496 0.453 3.7 15.1 9.5 16.8 2.8 1.5 14.5 18.4 100 103 0.5 1.7 2.2 0.078
    Nicolas Batum 23 POR NBA 59 1791 17.3 0.575 0.534 5.2 12.6 8.8 7.9 1.7 2.6 11.2 20.5 112 107 3.3 1.4 4.8 0.127
    James Johnson 24 TOR NBA 62 1561 14.5 0.498 0.468 5.6 16.2 11 13.9 2.4 4.4 15.1 20.2 97 100 0.1 2.5 2.6 0.079






    I think it really depends on what you can get/do with the number 10 pick. The above table compares Batum, Ariza, and JJ, based on per36 and advanced metrics.

    Batum is WAAAAY better offensively and in overall advanced stats (per, and ws/48). JJ and Ariza, are better rebounders and defenders and passers.


    After look at these stats, I'm not sure I still like Batum at 12+ mil/year

    JJ and Ariza are pretty much even in every category, although JJ has a slight edge in almost every category except passing and steals.

    JJ seems to win a heads up battle against Ariza, based on similar production, cheaper contract and younger age. However, we should keep in mind two factors.

    1) Ariza and Batum actually averaged about 36 minutes per game whereas as JJ only averaged about 26. We need to keep this in mind when we look at his per/36 stats. Do we think that he can play 36 minutes a game and be as productive as his current per36 stats imply? Casey seemed to feel the need to yank JJ on a regular basis and even put him in the dog house for a stretch after the all-star break. I'm not sure he has the mental component necessary to deliver consistently if giving more minutes.

    2) JJ will be a free agent at the end of next season with a QO of 3.9mil, what kind of contract do you think he will be offered? JJ at 2.9mil a season is a much better deal than Ariza at 7mil. But does JJ give you better value if he is making 4-5mil?

    if you're looking at JJ vs. Ariza straight up then I probably say stick with JJ, however getting Ariza and the number 10 for me makes it worth it. If Ariza had 3 or 4 years left I'd say no, but he only has 2 years left and the second is a player option which he may or may not exercise, and even if he does he is an expiring which may be used as trade bait.

    If we were to take on Ariza using our TPE we then have a lot of tradeable pieces.

    I do think it is a red flag that NO is trying to trade Ariza, but when you look at their contracts Okafor and Ariza are the only contracts that would still be on the books after next season (except of 2.5 for Jason Smith), and are leftovers from Chris Paul days. Although it does not look good on Ariza it seems to be more of an issue of regarding cleaning house for the new ownership and moving past the Chris Paul era.


    I definitely look at taking on Ariza, with the understanding that I could provide more tradeable value down the road.
    I am in support of a trade for Ariza/#10, but only as a secondary move after trading for Gay.

    1) Davis & JJ & #8 & #37 --> Gay & #25
    2) TPE & #56 --> Ariza & #10

    - Gay replaces JJ at starting SF
    - Davis is dumped to clear logjam at PF, establishing Amir as backup PF
    - Ariza is added as defensive stopper at backup SF/SG, contract is up after 1 or 2 seasons (player option for 2nd)
    - #8 drops down two spots to #10 (could conceivably get the same player anyway)
    - #37 & #56 are used to acquire #25 pick

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    you could just say screw it to gay all together and package the 8th and 10th together and either try to get one of the top 2 picks or go after derrick williams or something.
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  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I am in support of a trade for Ariza/#10, but only as a secondary move after trading for Gay.

    1) Davis & JJ & #8 & #37 --> Gay & #25
    2) TPE & #56 --> Ariza & #10

    - Gay replaces JJ at starting SF
    - Davis is dumped to clear logjam at PF, establishing Amir as backup PF
    - Ariza is added as defensive stopper at backup SF/SG, contract is up after 1 or 2 seasons (player option for 2nd)
    - #8 drops down two spots to #10 (could conceivably get the same player anyway)
    - #37 & #56 are used to acquire #25 pick
    I think the only issue here would be Ariza playing backup.

    He started 72 games he played with Houston, 75 his first year in NO and 41 this season. I doubt he'll be a team player when the Raps, a team who really is not an established team, decides to acquire him only to use him as a backup.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I think Ariza could play backup, and maybe okay with it. I think the bigger issue is the number of minutes, and if he can play both SG and SF, then he'd have a lot of opportunities for big minutes.

    What I'm confused about is why NO would give away their #10 pick just so you could take Ariza off their hands. Ariza does not have an albatross of a contract. $7M per is high but there are much worse contracts out there.

    I believe NO still has their amnesty. I think it would be a better plan for them to use their amnesty on Ariza (if they want his contract gone) and to keep the #10 pick for a serviceable rookie.

    However if they want cap space without using their amnesty I would assume they'd want some kind of asset back and not just a TPE. A realistic trade would be DeMar for Ariza + #10. I might do that if we gave up #8 for Gay, but I'm not sure Bryan would.

  8. #48
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    RE Ariza & redflag possibility.... NO has Aminu who they probably want to start and a couple of young backups. Getting "rid" of the 10th to save 15 mill (Ariza salary for the 2 yrs) possibly factors in including that they are already a very young team. Ariza also has been known to pout ...this maybe an issue with coach Williams.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    you could just say screw it to gay all together and package the 8th and 10th together and either try to get one of the top 2 picks or go after derrick williams or something.
    I think that puts you in the same situation as the issue facing the acquisition of Gay now: too many assets given up to do it.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    I'm still flip flopping on whether I want to go Gay or not.

    Basically, if you think you can increase the overall talent of your roster that doesn't handicap you in the short-medium-or long term than you do it. I think that there is the potential to do that by taking on Ariza. Sure it would be great to already have a plan for what you are going to do with that talent/picks but even if no immediate secondary changes happen, you've still got assets to play with at the trade deadline or the following off season.

    I'm increasingly taking a stock market approach to basketball players... attempt to find out their true value, buy low, sell high, then repeat. It's obviously a little more complicated than that, but getting the right player at the wrong price (Tyson Chandler max money) can be just as bad as getting the wrong player at the right price.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

  11. #51
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    First, I think its really difficult to take a stance on these potential trades with Memphis and NO unless we have more precise details.

    But my main concern is all this Nash talk. The only scenario I could see in which signing Nash would work for me, is if we also drafted a point guard who Nash would presumably mentor. Otherwise I am actually baffled as to how signing him would make any sense. We would be in no way walking our line we set at the beginning of last season. Nash is a couple of years away from retiring and a notoriously poor defender. This is especially concerning to me considering there are names like Lowry and Dragic also floating around.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    I'm still flip flopping on whether I want to go Gay or not....
    I'm assuming you did that on purpose, just to see if someone like me would comment on it.

  13. #53
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    Quote Junior wrote: View Post
    First, I think its really difficult to take a stance on these potential trades with Memphis and NO unless we have more precise details.

    But my main concern is all this Nash talk. The only scenario I could see in which signing Nash would work for me, is if we also drafted a point guard who Nash would presumably mentor. Otherwise I am actually baffled as to how signing him would make any sense. We would be in no way walking our line we set at the beginning of last season. Nash is a couple of years away from retiring and a notoriously poor defender. This is especially concerning to me considering there are names like Lowry and Dragic also floating around.
    I understand your concerns but Nash is someone who actually makes other players better. He will especially aid in the development of JV especially in the PnR area but Jose could do this too. I expect that on the monetary side he will be replacing Jose's salary for one year and yes he would mentor the rook (I am hoping Lillard). Nash also has cachet to not just have effect in the dressing room but possibly attract talent here. Then there is all the ancillary stuff that will happen just having Nash playing in Canada. This is something I am not personally concerned about...just that it is a sound basketball decision.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I think that puts you in the same situation as the issue facing the acquisition of Gay now: too many assets given up to do it.
    It's always either gonna be too much money or too many assets. You just need to figure out what puts you in a better situation in what you receive and post flexibility.

    Personally, I could give less of a fuck about money. It aint mine. All I know is something needs to be done. Majority rules and the Majority of people are losing interest in the raptors.

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Here's my 10 cents.


    Name Age Tm Lg G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
    Trevor Ariza 26 NOH NBA 41 41 1350 4.5 10.7 0.417 0.8 2.3 0.333 2.1 2.7 0.775 1.1 4.6 5.7 3.6 1.8 0.7 2 1.9 11.8
    Nicolas Batum 23 POR NBA 59 34 1791 5.8 12.9 0.451 2.2 5.5 0.391 2.7 3.2 0.836 1.6 3.8 5.4 1.7 1.1 1.2 1.8 2.1 16.4
    James Johnson 24 TOR NBA 62 40 1561 5.4 11.9 0.45 0.4 1.4 0.317 1.9 2.7 0.704 1.7 5 6.7 2.8 1.6 1.9 2.3 4.1 13.1


    Name Age Tm Lg G MP PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
    Trevor Ariza 26 NOH NBA 41 1350 14.2 0.496 0.453 3.7 15.1 9.5 16.8 2.8 1.5 14.5 18.4 100 103 0.5 1.7 2.2 0.078
    Nicolas Batum 23 POR NBA 59 1791 17.3 0.575 0.534 5.2 12.6 8.8 7.9 1.7 2.6 11.2 20.5 112 107 3.3 1.4 4.8 0.127
    James Johnson 24 TOR NBA 62 1561 14.5 0.498 0.468 5.6 16.2 11 13.9 2.4 4.4 15.1 20.2 97 100 0.1 2.5 2.6 0.079






    I think it really depends on what you can get/do with the number 10 pick. The above table compares Batum, Ariza, and JJ, based on per36 and advanced metrics.

    Batum is WAAAAY better offensively and in overall advanced stats (per, and ws/48). JJ and Ariza, are better rebounders and defenders and passers.


    After look at these stats, I'm not sure I still like Batum at 12+ mil/year

    JJ and Ariza are pretty much even in every category, although JJ has a slight edge in almost every category except passing and steals.

    JJ seems to win a heads up battle against Ariza, based on similar production, cheaper contract and younger age. However, we should keep in mind two factors.

    1) Ariza and Batum actually averaged about 36 minutes per game whereas as JJ only averaged about 26. We need to keep this in mind when we look at his per/36 stats. Do we think that he can play 36 minutes a game and be as productive as his current per36 stats imply? Casey seemed to feel the need to yank JJ on a regular basis and even put him in the dog house for a stretch after the all-star break. I'm not sure he has the mental component necessary to deliver consistently if giving more minutes.

    2) JJ will be a free agent at the end of next season with a QO of 3.9mil, what kind of contract do you think he will be offered? JJ at 2.9mil a season is a much better deal than Ariza at 7mil. But does JJ give you better value if he is making 4-5mil?

    if you're looking at JJ vs. Ariza straight up then I probably say stick with JJ, however getting Ariza and the number 10 for me makes it worth it. If Ariza had 3 or 4 years left I'd say no, but he only has 2 years left and the second is a player option which he may or may not exercise, and even if he does he is an expiring which may be used as trade bait.

    If we were to take on Ariza using our TPE we then have a lot of tradeable pieces.

    I do think it is a red flag that NO is trying to trade Ariza, but when you look at their contracts Okafor and Ariza are the only contracts that would still be on the books after next season (except of 2.5 for Jason Smith), and are leftovers from Chris Paul days. Although it does not look good on Ariza it seems to be more of an issue of regarding cleaning house for the new ownership and moving past the Chris Paul era.


    I definitely look at taking on Ariza, with the understanding that I could provide more tradeable value down the road.
    This is an interesting prospect. I don't think it is true that they would want to give up their 10th pick for Ariza, maybe for Okafor.

    I agree that JJ is underrated he could easily keep playing for us next year and I would be happy. I'm not at all interested in Batum at 12 mill+ per year (maybe 7).

    However if we can make the trade for NO's #10 pick in return for Okafor. We can then look to trade Amir Johnson, and have Ed Davis be back up PF. We end up solidifying the C position, and having two picks in the draft. This is how our depth chart would look:

    PG: Calderon/bayless/Uzoh
    SG: Derozan/#8 Pick/Forbes
    SF: Johnson/#10 pick/Kleiza
    PF: Bargnani/Davis/2nd rounder
    C: Valanciunas/Okafor/Gray

    We improve our team from the previous year, but we don't sacrifice the future, calderon's contract comes off the books at the end of this year, and then Okafor's the following year. This might be the smart move, if the rumour is true and NO is serious about doing this, and we can pull it off
    Last edited by SuperRaptor; Sat Jun 9th, 2012 at 01:25 PM.

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