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Thread: What is the best way to build a winner?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I'm not saying they haven't drafted well. I'm saying that they've drafted a lot of duds too (that nobody ever talks about).

    Have you ever heard of Ryan Richards, Jack McClinton, Nando De Colo, James Gist, or Damir Markota? All Spurs picks within the last 5 years.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #22
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    all late second rounders that they had to draft or stashed over seas. Its part of their strategy...ala Tiago Splitter who will have a much larger role next season

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    I think you have to build through the draft, but just accumulating draft picks isn't the answer. The key is talent evaluation, nobody is going to hit a home run every time, but if you can pick a player that perform better than the place he was picked you will over time accumulate more talent on average than other teams.

    BUT you really do need superstar level talent, and unfortunately that is probably going to take more luck than anything else.

    If you have good management that gets more value out of picks and trades on average than most other teams, hopefully you can make a trade for that superstar, or sign him as a free agent. Otherwise you just have to hope that you get lucky and draft that franchise player.

    But yeah, if I was a gm I'd be moneyballin' like it was my jay-oh-bee
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

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  4. #24
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    Quote c_bcm wrote: View Post
    OKC is a special case and should not necessarily be used as the standard for "building through the draft". They got lucky. Many teams have tried building through the draft and failed: Washington and Sacramento immediately come to mind. As in every case in life, balance is key. Draft the best player available when you can/forced to. Sometimes this means you're adding depth to your team (Davis, Demar), and sometimes it means to hit big (Durant, Westbrook, ...hopefully JV). Then go out and acquire the best players you can with the money you have.

    You can't hope for anything better than this. If you do, then you're hoping to get lucky and that will just drive you nuts!

    I would be far more happy to watch a TEAM play than individual talent. This may come from my more purist tendencies, but I enjoy a great pass, or fluid ball movement to isolation after isolation. Build me a team in the model of Indiana or Memphis and I'll be excited about Raptors basketball again.
    Love this...yes and absolutely. You can't go to the craps table expecting to win even if you have a great system. No question Spurs and OKC seem to have otherworldly talent when it comes to evaluating but there are many ways to build a great and competitive team. And being a realistic fan base will help them do that. That crazier we are...and T. fans are psycho...the crazier it forces our management into being.

  5. #25
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Cleveland looks like the team currently trying to build like OKC.

    They had the 1st and 4th pick last year, and 4th pick again this year. They were right with Irving.. TT could end up being good (but I'm not sure he's all-star material). If they get a stud at 4 this year, they will be very good in a few years.
    So what you're saying is with Stern in our pocket manipulating the odds so that we get the first pick, we should be good to go. Excellent...I like the way you think!!!!

  6. #26
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Let's stop with the luck nonsense for OKC and SA. Minnesota got "lucky" and got Kevin Garnett. How did that work out for them? Toronto had Vince Carter but couldn't take advantage. The Cavs got Lebron but they made a series of bad FA decisions that eventually put the team on a downward trajectory despite having the best player in the NBA.

    OKC and SA weren't lucky. They were smart. They surrounded their superstar with great players. Exceptionally good drafting by both teams, smart trades, good coaching hires, and a strong commitment from ownership to winning is what worked. Same thing in Boston and Miami. Very little luck was involved. It was all about planning, good trades, good coaching and a commitment from ownership and management to do whatever it took to win.

    Even now in Toronto the goal isn't to get to the ECF with a chance at the Finals. The goal is to get back in the playoffs, so that Colangelo and Company get their extensions. I don't have the magic formula for building a winner but I know how to get started: Watch what the Toronto Raptors do. Do the opposite.
    I'm all for giving San Antonio that credit. They have otherworldly insight. Both the Parker and Ginobli picks...other players that have gone on to be great role players...

    I don't think it's just the drafting though, I think the Spurs also have incredible player development. I don't think Pops' role in those players becoming special can be understated.

    The OKC thing is no where near the same for me. There's a ton of luck and ease there. There's solid talent evaluation as well, but having the 2nd,3rd, and 4th pick that tight on each other...and one of them being one of the top five players of the last decade...just imagine the genius of Colangelo if the NBA hadn't changed the rules just before we got the first player in 2006 and we could have cherry picked Durant out of High School...very similar to the rule change that had us picking fourth as a new team in 1996...which they have since revoked...interesting!!!!!! Not really...meds please!

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Starter The Coach's Avatar
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    Quote Gman wrote: View Post
    I'm all for giving San Antonio that credit. They have otherworldly insight. Both the Parker and Ginobli picks...other players that have gone on to be great role players...

    I don't think it's just the drafting though, I think the Spurs also have incredible player development. I don't think Pops' role in those players becoming special can be understated.
    So very true. As well, bringing player's into a winning culture is essential. "Buy in" is something that most teams are constantly having to deal with, but when you join the Spurs, you immediately "Buy in" and you can spend the rest of the time improving your game and understanding team strategy and philosophy. If I am sitting in training camp and constantly wondering if what is being taught is a winning formula... or after a losing streak, start to doubt the team, then it becomes a lot tougher to turn the ship.

    I think I may have just convinced myself that we need to bring in some serious talent THIS year or we will be bringing JV into a culture of continued losing... still want to keep the pick though. Conflicted!

  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    To have a winner you must have a capable bench really we should sign Jason Terry and Gerald Green and maybe AK47
    Your bench now looks like this

    PG: terry
    Sg: green
    Sf: kleiza
    Pf: kirilenko
    C: davis

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    After that who the hell cares who your starters are the opposite team just feels intimadated by your sheer depth

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    To have a winner you must have a capable bench really we should sign Jason Terry and Gerald Green and maybe AK47
    Your bench now looks like this

    PG: terry
    Sg: green
    Sf: kleiza
    Pf: kirilenko
    C: davis
    How do you sign Terry, Green, and maybe AK47?

    There is a salary cap plus they have to want to come here.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    To build a winner you start with good management, it all starts with leadership and that is coaching and good general management. You build around fundamentals that are proven to be successful in the playoffs, which means "defense wins championships". For pretty much the first time since I've been a raptors fan I think we have the proper leadership in place, and our team's identity is one that hangs its hat on the defensive side of the ball which is key.

    Second, you grow internally, you develop what you have, build around youth until you get to the point where you feel that your team has what it takes to play .500 basketball.

    Third, you look at bringing in a big time free agent(s) or trades to get your team over the hump and hopefully get them to the next level.

    I think that the argument can be made that with a healthy Andrea bargnani the raptors are arguably in the 8th seed as is, given the improvement that we have seen under Casey, and more familiarity with his system from the get go, I don't think this is too much of a stretch. The fact that Casey and Colangelo are in contract years leads me to believe that we are jumping the gun slightly from steps 2 to 3, but I want to see us win next year so I am all for it.

    Raptors Are Stacked.

  12. #32
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    Quote SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    To build a winner you start with good management, it all starts with leadership and that is coaching and good general management. You build around fundamentals that are proven to be successful in the playoffs, which means "defense wins championships". For pretty much the first time since I've been a raptors fan I think we have the proper leadership in place, and our team's identity is one that hangs its hat on the defensive side of the ball which is key.

    Second, you grow internally, you develop what you have, build around youth until you get to the point where you feel that your team has what it takes to play .500 basketball.

    Third, you look at bringing in a big time free agent(s) or trades to get your team over the hump and hopefully get them to the next level.

    I think that the argument can be made that with a healthy Andrea bargnani the raptors are arguably in the 8th seed as is, given the improvement that we have seen under Casey, and more familiarity with his system from the get go, I don't think this is too much of a stretch. The fact that Casey and Colangelo are in contract years leads me to believe that we are jumping the gun slightly from steps 2 to 3, but I want to see us win next year so I am all for it.

    Raptors Are Stacked
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    +1

    What people don't realize is that the owners of these teams usually invest because its a fun idea for them, and they do not necessarily look at it as a business, which needs strong management and good culture which permeates throughout the organization and down to the team. Too often there are people who think that they can make "band-aid" decisions by bringing in one player or the next and that will cover up the mistakes for the past few years (i.e. Carmelo). But even if that player comes over, if there is not good management in place to set the tone, the organization will not do well.

    As far as longevity? You have no chance unless you develop this type of culture. The Spurs are probably the best example, they have such a strong culture and dynamic, that you can put a player like Stephen Jackson on the team, in a spot reserve role, and he accepts it without a peep to the media. Look at the Celtics over the past 5 years, who can insert guys like Brandon Bass and Ryan Hollins and have them be effective. Having roles and a professional attitude towards the team is a very powerful thing.

    With Casey, we now have a brand of basketball which we play, and have started to build a culture around the team. As long as we continue to build on this, we can bring in new effective players, and discard the ones that don't fit...even if they are talented, rather than holding on to them "waiting for them to hit their potential."

    And yes, we do need a little luck as well...

  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    I've been thinkin' 'bout the draft and I think Toronto's getting Beal. The reason why is if you think logically the top 8 picks in the draft should go like this.

    1. Hornets, Davis, duh
    2. Bobcats, T-Rob, they dont need a 3 or 2 so whats the point of picking one
    3. Wizards, Kidd-Gilchrist, but they need a 3 or 2
    4. Cavs, Barnes, I'll explain this later
    5. Kings, Probably Drummond, because it would be stupid to pick another guard.
    6. Blazers, Lilliard, it's a reach but hey they dont need a shooting guard right now because of Matthews and Batum, and if you think Batum will leave, think again, do you really think it'd be smart for Portland?
    7. Warriors, Sullinger? it will be a 4 or 5 for sure though, because they have no need for any 1 or 2, because if they did, then why'd they trade away Ellis?
    8. Raps, Beal, They're left with the guy all the fans want

    Why would the Cavs pick Barnes you ask? Just look at their trade and free agent options at the 3. There is no free agent 3 that would sign with cleveland, and what do the Cavs have to trade for a 3, nothing. But at the 2 you have a million options that you could sign, e.g. Allen, Young, Barbosa amongst others.

    And if you're askin' why wouldn't Batum leave? Portland wouldn't allow him to and now with a actual pg they can move on and also pick maybe Tyler Zeller to fill in the 5. The franchise moves forward and easily becomes a playoff contender as well. Something that certainly will be a plus for Batum if he re-signs

    Now if you still think this won't happen, well, Lamb's still a great pick for Toronto anyways, but this still is a possibility to keep in mind and hope for.

  14. #34
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    I've been thinkin' 'bout the draft and I think Toronto's getting Beal. The reason why is if you think logically the top 8 picks in the draft should go like this....
    Not saying you're wrong, but picking for need is a little simplistic, maybe. If you pick for the best player available, you might be able to trade that player for a vet that better fills your need. And you might find a team that is well out of the draft lottery that would be ecstatic to take a higher pick off your hands. Think of a team like the Raps (I'm just using them as an example and realize they are not a good one since they are in the lottery). They happen to have a glut at the 4 spot for several reasons. Wouldn't they love to trade a 4 for a 3 from higher in the draft than they would be picking. They might be willing to take on a bad contract in a multi-player deal. so if you were higher up, why pick for need, when you can swing a deal that maybe helps you out a couple of ways?

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    There's always a team in the top 5 that makes a total wtf pick and screws up the rest of the lottery. Last year was Cleveland. My money's on the kings this year.

  16. #36
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    There's always a team in the top 5 that makes a total wtf pick and screws up the rest of the lottery. Last year was Cleveland. My money's on the kings this year.
    LOL

    Yeah, there's not way Beal drops to 8 unless we have New Orleans type of "luck"

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