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What is the best way to build a winner?

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  • #16
    slaw wrote: View Post
    Let's stop with the luck nonsense for OKC and SA. Minnesota got "lucky" and got Kevin Garnett. How did that work out for them? Toronto had Vince Carter but couldn't take advantage. The Cavs got Lebron but they made a series of bad FA decisions that eventually put the team on a downward trajectory despite having the best player in the NBA.

    OKC and SA weren't lucky. They were smart. They surrounded their superstar with great players. Exceptionally good drafting by both teams, smart trades, good coaching hires, and a strong commitment from ownership to winning is what worked. Same thing in Boston and Miami. Very little luck was involved. It was all about planning, good trades, good coaching and a commitment from ownership and management to do whatever it took to win.

    Even now in Toronto the goal isn't to get to the ECF with a chance at the Finals. The goal is to get back in the playoffs, so that Colangelo and Company get their extensions. I don't have the magic formula for building a winner but I know how to get started: Watch what the Toronto Raptors do. Do the opposite.
    The luck was how they acquired the superstar (Duncan and Durant).

    Anyone who says the respective teams didn't do the rest with their own hard work and decision making is not giving the teams the credit they deserve.

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    • #17
      There is no substitute for talent. Hence spotting it even in the lower reaches of the draft system or making trades for players other teams think of as being disposable. A good coach and discipline to stay the course with "the plan" and philosophy. I believe this is the Spurs way. Time tested. Utah was/is the same though not as successful but always in the mix.

      And then it helps being bad when the upcoming draft class is stocked.

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      • #18
        thing to remember with okc and sas though is both teams hit home runs EVERY SINGLE DRAFT. that said, BC is a excellent drafter.
        @sweatpantsjer

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        • #19
          ceez wrote: View Post
          thing to remember with okc and sas though is both teams hit home runs EVERY SINGLE DRAFT. that said, BC is a excellent drafter.
          For every Manu, Parker, and Leonard, there are a million Spurs picks nobody has heard of. The idea that everything SA touches turns to gold, is inaccurate.

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          • #20
            dude look at their first round pick history, nevermind they drafted guys like scola, manu, dragic, and blair in the second. a couple of which got flipped for important role players.
            @sweatpantsjer

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            • #21
              I'm not saying they haven't drafted well. I'm saying that they've drafted a lot of duds too (that nobody ever talks about).

              Have you ever heard of Ryan Richards, Jack McClinton, Nando De Colo, James Gist, or Damir Markota? All Spurs picks within the last 5 years.

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              • #22
                all late second rounders that they had to draft or stashed over seas. Its part of their strategy...ala Tiago Splitter who will have a much larger role next season
                For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                • #23
                  I think you have to build through the draft, but just accumulating draft picks isn't the answer. The key is talent evaluation, nobody is going to hit a home run every time, but if you can pick a player that perform better than the place he was picked you will over time accumulate more talent on average than other teams.

                  BUT you really do need superstar level talent, and unfortunately that is probably going to take more luck than anything else.

                  If you have good management that gets more value out of picks and trades on average than most other teams, hopefully you can make a trade for that superstar, or sign him as a free agent. Otherwise you just have to hope that you get lucky and draft that franchise player.

                  But yeah, if I was a gm I'd be moneyballin' like it was my jay-oh-bee
                  "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                  "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                  "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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                  • #24
                    c_bcm wrote: View Post
                    OKC is a special case and should not necessarily be used as the standard for "building through the draft". They got lucky. Many teams have tried building through the draft and failed: Washington and Sacramento immediately come to mind. As in every case in life, balance is key. Draft the best player available when you can/forced to. Sometimes this means you're adding depth to your team (Davis, Demar), and sometimes it means to hit big (Durant, Westbrook, ...hopefully JV). Then go out and acquire the best players you can with the money you have.

                    You can't hope for anything better than this. If you do, then you're hoping to get lucky and that will just drive you nuts!

                    I would be far more happy to watch a TEAM play than individual talent. This may come from my more purist tendencies, but I enjoy a great pass, or fluid ball movement to isolation after isolation. Build me a team in the model of Indiana or Memphis and I'll be excited about Raptors basketball again.
                    Love this...yes and absolutely. You can't go to the craps table expecting to win even if you have a great system. No question Spurs and OKC seem to have otherworldly talent when it comes to evaluating but there are many ways to build a great and competitive team. And being a realistic fan base will help them do that. That crazier we are...and T. fans are psycho...the crazier it forces our management into being.

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                    • #25
                      planetmars wrote: View Post
                      Cleveland looks like the team currently trying to build like OKC.

                      They had the 1st and 4th pick last year, and 4th pick again this year. They were right with Irving.. TT could end up being good (but I'm not sure he's all-star material). If they get a stud at 4 this year, they will be very good in a few years.
                      So what you're saying is with Stern in our pocket manipulating the odds so that we get the first pick, we should be good to go. Excellent...I like the way you think!!!!

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                      • #26
                        slaw wrote: View Post
                        Let's stop with the luck nonsense for OKC and SA. Minnesota got "lucky" and got Kevin Garnett. How did that work out for them? Toronto had Vince Carter but couldn't take advantage. The Cavs got Lebron but they made a series of bad FA decisions that eventually put the team on a downward trajectory despite having the best player in the NBA.

                        OKC and SA weren't lucky. They were smart. They surrounded their superstar with great players. Exceptionally good drafting by both teams, smart trades, good coaching hires, and a strong commitment from ownership to winning is what worked. Same thing in Boston and Miami. Very little luck was involved. It was all about planning, good trades, good coaching and a commitment from ownership and management to do whatever it took to win.

                        Even now in Toronto the goal isn't to get to the ECF with a chance at the Finals. The goal is to get back in the playoffs, so that Colangelo and Company get their extensions. I don't have the magic formula for building a winner but I know how to get started: Watch what the Toronto Raptors do. Do the opposite.
                        I'm all for giving San Antonio that credit. They have otherworldly insight. Both the Parker and Ginobli picks...other players that have gone on to be great role players...

                        I don't think it's just the drafting though, I think the Spurs also have incredible player development. I don't think Pops' role in those players becoming special can be understated.

                        The OKC thing is no where near the same for me. There's a ton of luck and ease there. There's solid talent evaluation as well, but having the 2nd,3rd, and 4th pick that tight on each other...and one of them being one of the top five players of the last decade...just imagine the genius of Colangelo if the NBA hadn't changed the rules just before we got the first player in 2006 and we could have cherry picked Durant out of High School...very similar to the rule change that had us picking fourth as a new team in 1996...which they have since revoked...interesting!!!!!! Not really...meds please!

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                        • #27
                          Gman wrote: View Post
                          I'm all for giving San Antonio that credit. They have otherworldly insight. Both the Parker and Ginobli picks...other players that have gone on to be great role players...

                          I don't think it's just the drafting though, I think the Spurs also have incredible player development. I don't think Pops' role in those players becoming special can be understated.
                          So very true. As well, bringing player's into a winning culture is essential. "Buy in" is something that most teams are constantly having to deal with, but when you join the Spurs, you immediately "Buy in" and you can spend the rest of the time improving your game and understanding team strategy and philosophy. If I am sitting in training camp and constantly wondering if what is being taught is a winning formula... or after a losing streak, start to doubt the team, then it becomes a lot tougher to turn the ship.

                          I think I may have just convinced myself that we need to bring in some serious talent THIS year or we will be bringing JV into a culture of continued losing... still want to keep the pick though. Conflicted!
                          “Be more concerned with your character than your reputation, because your character is what you really are, while your reputation is merely what others think you are.”
                          ― John Wooden

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                          • #28
                            To have a winner you must have a capable bench really we should sign Jason Terry and Gerald Green and maybe AK47
                            Your bench now looks like this

                            PG: terry
                            Sg: green
                            Sf: kleiza
                            Pf: kirilenko
                            C: davis

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                            • #29
                              After that who the hell cares who your starters are the opposite team just feels intimadated by your sheer depth

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                              • #30
                                Mindlessness wrote: View Post
                                To have a winner you must have a capable bench really we should sign Jason Terry and Gerald Green and maybe AK47
                                Your bench now looks like this

                                PG: terry
                                Sg: green
                                Sf: kleiza
                                Pf: kirilenko
                                C: davis
                                How do you sign Terry, Green, and maybe AK47?

                                There is a salary cap plus they have to want to come here.

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