View Poll Results: Would you trade #8 and Jose, for Luol Deng and #29?

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Thread: Chad Ford speaks of Deng to Raptors

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    People here massively over value picks. Deng may not be a top 5 small forward but he is a good fit for this team and he comes from a team that is among the best in the league so he may bring that winning mentality. He has ridiculous size and length, plays great D, and actually shoots pretty well from 3. People here seem to like Gay but he is a pretty awful distance shooter, which is one of the things Casey said we need. Igi is better but he doesn't have much size and a line up of him an Derozen may have some trouble dealing with the big 3's around the league. I think Deng is the perfect fit here and I really like the deal, assuming we can find a good replacement for Calderon. I do think it's tipped a little bit in the Bulls favor (Calderon is pretty good) but if they threw in a protected future first I'd probably do the deal.
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  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I think people are over-valuing Deng simply because he plays for the Bulls. How integral was Deng prior to Rose and Thibodeau arriving? Was anybody raving about him while playing alongside Kirk Hinrich? Deng's a good player on a great team, but not somebody who's going to make a substantial difference on a lottery team by himself...he's not that kind of player. He's a role player.

    We just witnessed 4 months of excruciatingly painful basketball. Do we really want to give it up for Deng, especially considering that someone like Terrence Jones could be Deng-like in 2 years?
    Last edited by Nilanka; Thu Jun 14th, 2012 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Kurt = Kirk
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  3. #43
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    could be Deng-like in 2 years?
    I think we are more or less done with "coulds" we want "are already"

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Did people actually read Ford's comments? He's just saying if the bulls were going to get into the lottery how they'd most likely he able to do it. It's not a rumor at all.

  5. #45
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    Luol Deng is a nice player, but not the right player for the Raps at this time. He's basically a 3rd or 4th guy on a playoff team.. we don't need that since we already kind of have that guy in Bargnani.

    If we traded Bargnani straight up for Deng, I'd probably think hard about it.. but to trade our 8th pick is not smart.

    Deng is still semi-young at 27, but he's owed $27M in two years.. where as Iggy is owed about $30M in two years (and his second year is a player option). I think Iggy is more valuable and I don't want him either. I think trading for Deng is a move towards mediocrity, IMO.

    Bryan I believe drafted him in Phoenix.. I hope that's not a sign that says he's interested.
    -Deng is not as "flashy" as Iggy, but (IMHO) better scorer, much better mid range shooter & will cost us a lot less.
    Personally I'd take Deng straight up over Iggy, but that is just me.
    Why are we so "infatuated" with Gay & Iggy? Trying to get players we should have gotten in draft?
    If we "have to" trade for a SF, Deng is by far the best option (remember, Deng to To is just Ford shootin' breeze) -As good a defender as Iggy, not as good (but improvement over JJ & Iggy) on offence as Gay -either as shooter or more importantly in creating his own shoot.
    Last, but not least -Deng would likely cost less to acquire & has a cheaper contract.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    -Deng is not as "flashy" as Iggy, but (IMHO) better scorer, much better mid range shooter & will cost us a lot less.
    Personally I'd take Deng straight up over Iggy, but that is just me.
    Why are we so "infatuated" with Gay & Iggy? Trying to get players we should have gotten in draft?
    If we "have to" trade for a SF, Deng is by far the best option (remember, Deng to To is just Ford shootin' breeze) -As good a defender as Iggy, not as good (but improvement over JJ & Iggy) on offence as Gay -either as shooter or more importantly in creating his own shoot.
    Last, but not least -Deng would likely cost less to acquire & has a cheaper contract.
    The distinction between Gay, and any of the others is simple. He's a "closer" capable of creating his own shot. The only other player this franchise has ever had, was Carter.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    The distinction between Gay, and any of the others is simple. He's a "closer" capable of creating his own shot. The only other player this franchise has ever had, was Carter.
    Keep in mind, "closer" was one of the major selling points when we signed Turkoglu...
    As for Deng, I'm more concerned about his contract and injury than I am about his relative skill level compared to Gay or Igoudala. If he was perfectly healthy and wouldn't eat up so much cap space, I'd think hard about doing the deal. Then again, if he was healthy and cheaper, the bulls probably wouldn't.

  8. #48
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    Luol Deng is a good player still. He can score, and he comes from a defensive team. He is still young. His scoring has dipped because of Rose. I think he can help the team.

    The reality is I don't think Toronto can ever get a fair trade value for any legit talent. We get ripped off regardless

  9. #49
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I seriously doubt the Raptors are really in the market for Deng.
    - Deng has proven to be injury prone
    - Deng makes $13.3M next season and $14.3M the following season
    - Deng has always been a role player, never a focal point (certainly not the way Gay or AI have been)

    I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the Raps trying to acquire Deng, but there's absolutely no way I would trade the #8 pick for him.

  10. #50
    Raptors Republic Starter Papa Burgundy's Avatar
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    Wow ... people put a lot of value in the #8 pick ...

    There are no all-star SF's there ... $13 and $14M isn't a high tag for a young veteran all-star, and trading for a big ticket may be the only way to get one in town - based on a relatively rough track record of attracting FA's.

    Anyhow, players at 8 like Lillard, Marshall, Rivers, PJ3, Sullinger ... all are a step below Deng in 2012/13, and that's being kind.
    The only way to bag a classy lady is to give her two tickets to the gun show... and see if she likes the goods.

  11. #51
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    People here massively over value picks. Deng may not be a top 5 small forward but he is a good fit for this team and he comes from a team that is among the best in the league so he may bring that winning mentality. He has ridiculous size and length, plays great D, and actually shoots pretty well from 3. People here seem to like Gay but he is a pretty awful distance shooter, which is one of the things Casey said we need. Igi is better but he doesn't have much size and a line up of him an Derozen may have some trouble dealing with the big 3's around the league. I think Deng is the perfect fit here and I really like the deal, assuming we can find a good replacement for Calderon. I do think it's tipped a little bit in the Bulls favor (Calderon is pretty good) but if they threw in a protected future first I'd probably do the deal.
    If you were to look at the Raptors in a kind of out of context way, i.e. "the raptors need a small forward who can defend", then yes I agree.

    The reality is though, neither player (Deng or Iggy) would be useful for us. Deng is injured in like 20 different ways, and only plays hurt because they can win. We should never underestimate how much playing for a winning team, or a team on which the players believe can win any game, impacts the effort that guys like Deng will put in on defense.

    Rudy Gay is better offensively than both of those guys and can easily provide what either of them can given the right mix of players. If we are going to trade our pick, I would at least like to see it for someone who can create off the dribble like Gay can. otherwise, pick Lilard or waiters, and let's move on to the next opportunity.

  12. #52
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    Wow ... people put a lot of value in the #8 pick ...

    There are no all-star SF's there ... $13 and $14M isn't a high tag for a young veteran all-star, and trading for a big ticket may be the only way to get one in town - based on a relatively rough track record of attracting FA's.

    Anyhow, players at 8 like Lillard, Marshall, Rivers, PJ3, Sullinger ... all are a step below Deng in 2012/13, and that's being kind.
    I agree with both statements: -We need to "break the ice" & attract a solid player (hopefully others may follow); Last several years there has not been a player at 8 even close to Deng (who for all we know is not even been traded). This deal would also rid us of Jose (whom everybody thinks should be traded or amnestied).
    Last issue: Gay is likely off the table (I am pretty sure the last thing a new owner wants to do is trade its best player to save $$).
    As for Iggy (no offence) -I would not trade JJ straight up for him. Iggy is marginally better shooter NOW, much older & what 4-5 times more expensive.
    W Chandler seems to have disappeared off our radar. Any thought there?

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    Last several years there has not been a player at 8 even close to Deng
    2011 - 15th pick: Kawhi Leonard (some mocks had him in the lottery)
    2010 - 10th pick: Paul George
    2009 - 10th pick: Brandon Jennings
    2008 - 10th pick: Brook Lopez
    2007 - 9th pick: Joakim Noah

    I would take all of these players over Deng right now. Although none of them were actually picked 8th, they were all available at the 8th pick. And this year shouldn't be any different. But I guess it all depends on how much you trust Colangelo and his scouting staff.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #54
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Papa Burgundy wrote: View Post
    In case you missed Chad Ford's latest chat, he answers a questions about the Bulls getting into the top 10:


    http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/44193

    It was a surprising choice of words to see Ford say if the Raps "settled" for Deng ... must be in reference to their alleged pursuit of Gay, Iguodala, etc.

    There is definitely some sense to what he suggested in that Jose deal. The Bulls are looking for an upgrade for this season, which Jose could offer ... and also provides a big expiring deal for Rose to slide back into his lead role, and the Bulls to maybe have some money for shopping - or at least avoid luxury tax.

    Maybe #8 for them would be someone like Austin Rivers, to score alongside Rose - who knows.
    That trade sucks.

  15. #55
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    That trade sucks.
    No it doesn't

  16. #56
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Yeah it does. To give up an 8th overall pick and an $10.5M get out of jail free card in a CBA that is going to practically crucify over spenders and for what? Deng and a toss away pick no better than a second round says probability. Are the Raptors ready to make something happen? I don't think so. Their potential franchise center will need a good two to three seasons before he's up to speed if he takes the most common path of big men. Deng will be 29 then. If they instead chose to use the pick their guy would be developing with JV and they could grow together and form long term chemistry. Real teams develop long term chemistry. It's how they consistently win. They're better off using the pick on a guard like Rivers or someone of that level of talent and have him grow with JV.

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I think we are more or less done with "coulds" we want "are already"
    Ding ding ding, you've just won today's daily double.

    And really think about it from A GM perspective. Don't necessarily pretend you are Bryan, but, pretend you've basically got this summer and upcoming season to "wooh" the brass or you are unemployed.

  18. #58
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    I just don't see the benefit for Chicago in moving up in the lottery. Forget about Toronto transitioning to a win-now mode, Chicago is unquestionably in win-now mode. Deng for Calderon + #8 doesn't really help them out... gives them a little more depth at PG, but doesn't give them enough cap flexibility to fill their hole at SF. Whoever they draft at #8 isn't going to step in and be an immediate contributor, and they likely won't get the best part of Calderon (his expiring contract) until 2014. They'd be stupid to try to overhaul their team simply because they got an injury bug this year. They should make some good depth moves, keep Boozer, Deng, Noah, and Rose together, and see what happens if they can put together a healthy post-season next year.

  19. #59
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    Ding ding ding, you've just won today's daily double.

    And really think about it from A GM perspective. Don't necessarily pretend you are Bryan, but, pretend you've basically got this summer and upcoming season to "wooh" the brass or you are unemployed.
    This I am fairly certain. BC WILL NOT make a move to save his job. If he gets fired today, he will have 2 offers within a week. Am I saying, he is a great GM? No, but the general perception is that BC is a solid GM at least.
    Nilanka (above) brought up a list of guys picked in 9-15 range from 2007-2011. All 5 guys are comparable to Deng. BUT look at the all the guys 1-15 from 2000-2011 -almost half of them are out of NBA or deep bench players (including some high picks- eg Oden, Morrison, T Thomas, Ford, Roy, Alexander, Curry, Sene...). You see my point? Drafting an 18,19 year old is as much crap shoot as science. Only 1 8th pick from that list is equal or better than Deng (R Gay). PJ3, or T Jones or....are a gamble, but the odds are any of them is unlikely to be better than Deng or Gay. Then again, if BC has his "Deep thinking, analytical hat" on maybe he gets another Amare, Nash or Marion at No 8.
    This is why you have to pay/overpay (higher salary & assets) for a sure thing (be it Deng, Gay...).

  20. #60
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote montreal06 wrote: View Post
    Luol Deng is a good player still. He can score, and he comes from a defensive team. He is still young. His scoring has dipped because of Rose. I think he can help the team.

    The reality is I don't think Toronto can ever get a fair trade value for any legit talent. We get ripped off regardless
    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    This I am fairly certain. BC WILL NOT make a move to save his job. If he gets fired today, he will have 2 offers within a week. Am I saying, he is a great GM? No, but the general perception is that BC is a solid GM at least.
    Nilanka (above) brought up a list of guys picked in 9-15 range from 2007-2011. All 5 guys are comparable to Deng. BUT look at the all the guys 1-15 from 2000-2011 -almost half of them are out of NBA or deep bench players (including some high picks- eg Oden, Morrison, T Thomas, Ford, Roy, Alexander, Curry, Sene...). You see my point? Drafting an 18,19 year old is as much crap shoot as science. Only 1 8th pick from that list is equal or better than Deng (R Gay). PJ3, or T Jones or....are a gamble, but the odds are any of them is unlikely to be better than Deng or Gay. Then again, if BC has his "Deep thinking, analytical hat" on maybe he gets another Amare, Nash or Marion at No 8.
    This is why you have to pay/overpay (higher salary & assets) for a sure thing (be it Deng, Gay...).
    no one has to over pay in trades. the players dont have a choice in it. unless there is a bidding war for a player like what denver was able to do with nj and ny, the market decides what a player is worth in trades.

    i hope that bc doesnt make a over payment trade because that would be stupid

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