View Poll Results: Would you trade #8 and Jose, for Luol Deng and #29?

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Thread: Chad Ford speaks of Deng to Raptors

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    You do know that Deng just turned 27? So the age difference between him and Gay aren't far apart.
    I know what you mean by Deng making us mediocre, I mean, guys who are all-stars and make all-defensive teams are completely shyte players. Who needs 'em?
    Deng's a roll player. He's not the type of wing who can single-handedly take over a game.

    Gay is.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #82
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Deng's a roll player. He's not the type of wing who can single-handedly take over a game.

    Gay is.
    I wasn't aware that role players make all-star teams.

    By the way, that whole type of wing that can single handedly take over games that you mentioned, yeah, how is that working out for Gay in Memphis?

    If Rudy Gay was a guy who could single handed take over games, there's no way there would be rumours of Memphis shopping him. There's no way they'd even entertains the thought of parting with him.
    Last edited by MangoKid; Wed Jun 20th, 2012 at 03:53 PM.

  3. #83
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote draftedraptor wrote: View Post
    I worry about Deng and Bargnani playing together. Teams will try to get us on the break.
    Deng holds his own just fine. You don't have to worry about him.

  4. #84
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I'll say it again defensive ace...all star...tough....okay 3pt shot....already plays in a heavily defensive system....already coached by a defensive mastermind...we could do a lot worse than that...and Jesus people 26 - 28 is considered the prime. He could play 7 or 8 years at high level

  5. #85
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    just because some of you have fallen in love with certain players don't close your mind to others

  6. #86
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I'll say it again defensive ace...all star...tough....okay 3pt shot....already plays in a heavily defensive system....already coached by a defensive mastermind...we could do a lot worse than that...and Jesus people 26 - 28 is considered the prime. He could play 7 or 8 years at high level
    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    just because some of you have fallen in love with certain players don't close your mind to others
    If the Raptors did not have to give up their lottery pick, sign me up for Deng.

    The problem with Deng is his back which puts a ridiculous premium on his insurance for his contract and his wrist which needs surgery and he will likely miss the first 2 months of the season. Luckily, though, it is not his shooting wrist.

  7. #87
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I wasn't aware that role players make all-star teams.

    By the way, that whole type of wing that can single handedly take over games that you mentioned, yeah, how is that working out for Gay in Memphis?

    If Rudy Gay was a guy who could single handed take over games, there's no way there would be rumours of Memphis shopping him. There's no way they'd even entertains the thought of parting with him.
    Gay HAS single-handedly taken over games (this is not an opinion).

    Maybe you've heard of the following role-player all-stars?

    - BJ Armstrong
    - Mark Price
    - Horace Grant
    - Tyrone Hill
    - Charles Oakley
    - Dan Marjele
    - Detlef Schrempf
    - Juwan Howard
    - Chris Gatling
    - Dale Davis
    - Anthony Mason
    - Theo Ratliff
    - Wally Szczerbiak
    - Shawn Marion
    - Brad Miller
    - Zydrunas Ilgauskas
    - Andrei Kirilenko
    - Jamaal Magloire
    - Ron Artest
    - Richard Hamilton
    - Josh Howard
    - Mehmet Okur
    - Mo Williams
    - David Lee
    - Chris Kaman
    - Luol Deng
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  8. #88
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    If Rudy Gay was a guy who could single handed take over games, there's no way there would be rumours of Memphis shopping him. There's no way they'd even entertains the thought of parting with him.
    I'm not sure where this "good players don't get traded" idea comes from. All I'd have to do is point to any year (in any sport) for evidence of the contrary.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  9. #89
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Maybe you've heard of the following role-player all-stars?

    - BJ Armstrong
    - Mark Price
    - Horace Grant
    - Tyrone Hill
    - Charles Oakley
    - Dan Marjele
    - Detlef Schrempf
    - Juwan Howard
    - Chris Gatling
    - Dale Davis
    - Anthony Mason
    - Theo Ratliff
    - Wally Szczerbiak
    - Shawn Marion
    - Brad Miller
    - Zydrunas Ilgauskas
    - Andrei Kirilenko
    - Jamaal Magloire
    - Ron Artest
    - Richard Hamilton
    - Josh Howard
    - Mehmet Okur
    - Mo Williams
    - David Lee
    - Chris Kaman
    - Luol Deng[/QUOTE]

    by this definition everyone is a role player...jesus

  10. #90
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Role players are nice pieces on winnings teams. but nobody is mistaking these guys as "franchise cornerstones".

    Take that role player and add him to a lottery team (while expecting him to be one your best players), gets you nowhere fast.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Wed Jun 20th, 2012 at 04:26 PM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  11. #91
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    BTW, my opinion of Deng is based on the assumption that we trade our 8th pick for him. Losing a significant building block, for a player who needs good players around him to succeed, is far too steep a price to pay.

    On the other hand, if Deng was a free agent, I would be interested because he is a clear upgrade over JJ or Kleiza.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  12. #92
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Gay HAS single-handedly taken over games (this is not an opinion).

    Maybe you've heard of the following role-player all-stars?

    - BJ Armstrong
    - Mark Price
    - Horace Grant
    - Tyrone Hill
    - Charles Oakley
    - Dan Marjele
    - Detlef Schrempf
    - Juwan Howard
    - Chris Gatling
    - Dale Davis
    - Anthony Mason
    - Theo Ratliff
    - Wally Szczerbiak
    - Shawn Marion
    - Brad Miller
    - Zydrunas Ilgauskas
    - Andrei Kirilenko
    - Jamaal Magloire
    - Ron Artest
    - Richard Hamilton
    - Josh Howard
    - Mehmet Okur
    - Mo Williams
    - David Lee
    - Chris Kaman
    - Luol Deng
    Let's go through some of those aformentioned names, shall we?
    Mark Price was a 4-time all-star, he was all nba 4 times, one of the best 3-point shooters in history.
    Shawn Marion was a 4-time all-star as well, and was all nba 2 times.
    Detlef Schrempf was a 3-time all star, 2 times sixth man of the year, and made and all-nba team
    Horace Grant made the all-nba defensive team 4 times and was one of the best rebounding big men in history
    Charles Oakley twice made an all defensive team
    Ron Artest is a former defensive player of the year, 4-time all defensive team and made the all nba team once
    Richard Hamilton made the all-star team 3 times
    Andrei Kirilenko made an all defensive team 3 times
    Brad Miller is a 2-time all star
    Dan Majerle was a 3-time all star and made an all-defensive team twice. His number is retired by the Suns.
    Juwan Howard was not only an all star, but made an all nba team


    Luol Deng was an all star this season and made an all-nba defensive team

    Where is Rudy Gay's all-nba team spot or all-star berth? Oh yeah, that's right he doesn't have one but he's better than all of these role players. He should just enter the Hall of fame now and have his number retired by the Grizz because he takes over so many games by himself.

  13. #93
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    The resumes you listed don't dispute the fact that they were role players.

    If you hypothetically trade our 8th pick for Mark Price (in his prime), how far can the Raptors go? How much value did Marion have the moment he lost Nash and Stoudamire?

    These guys were all role players. They fit into very specific keyholes. Not worth trading a lotto pick for.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  14. #94
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    The resumes you listed don't dispute the fact that they were role players.

    If you hypothetically trade our 8th pick for Mark Price (in his prime), how far can the Raptors go? How much value did Marion have the moment he lost Nash and Stoudamire?

    These guys were all role players. They fit into very specific keyholes. Not worth trading a lotto pick for.
    Okay, we'll agree to disagree on this matter. I've said my piece, you've said yours. We'll leave it at that.

  15. #95
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Maybe you've heard of the following role-player all-stars?

    - BJ Armstrong
    - Mark Price
    - Horace Grant
    - Tyrone Hill
    - Charles Oakley
    - Dan Marjele
    - Detlef Schrempf
    - Juwan Howard
    - Chris Gatling
    - Dale Davis
    - Anthony Mason
    - Theo Ratliff
    - Wally Szczerbiak
    - Shawn Marion
    - Brad Miller
    - Zydrunas Ilgauskas
    - Andrei Kirilenko
    - Jamaal Magloire
    - Ron Artest
    - Richard Hamilton
    - Josh Howard
    - Mehmet Okur
    - Mo Williams
    - David Lee
    - Chris Kaman
    - Luol Deng
    by this definition everyone is a role player...jesus[/QUOTE]

    Role player is a second unit player or someone who starts because a team has spwnt their money on other players/stars and they are cheap and decent all around.

    Like Kleiza and both Johnsons.

    I would say over the course of a career would be somebody like john salmons or maybe, jason terry. Def. Charlie V.

  16. #96
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    ...These guys were all role players. They fit into very specific keyholes. Not worth trading a lotto pick for.
    Going through the subsequent careers of the last ten years of lottery picks, and you might be valuing lottery picks too highly. Once you get past the first 3-4 (and a lot of those haven't been worth it) you get a lot of "role players" and worse. It is an education to look through the list, but I won't bother posting it here. Not hard to Google though.

  17. #97
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Going through the subsequent careers of the last ten years of lottery picks, and you might be valuing lottery picks too highly. Once you get past the first 3-4 (and a lot of those haven't been worth it) you get a lot of "role players" and worse. It is an education to look through the list, but I won't bother posting it here. Not hard to Google though.
    I agree with your point about the uncertainty of lotto picks. But I would much rather hold onto the "chance" of drafting a stud, rather than trading for a player who has already reached his ceiling, and who isn't good enough to lead/carry a team.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  18. #98
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I agree with your point about the uncertainty of lotto picks. But I would much rather hold onto the "chance" of drafting a stud, rather than trading for a player who has already reached his ceiling, and who isn't good enough to lead/carry a team.
    This conversation is very interesting.

    If you think back to when Kobe wanted out of LA (infamous parking lot incident/video of Bryant trashing not giving up Bynum for Kidd and before Gasol trade among other incidents), Kobe was packing his bags for Chicago but the Bulls balked because they did not want to include Deng (this is how I remember it, correct me if I am wrong).

    Just goes to show the value of 'potential' - the allure of the promise of the unknown, and unlikely, possibility.

  19. #99
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Let's go through some of those aformentioned names, shall we?
    Mark Price was a 4-time all-star, he was all nba 4 times, one of the best 3-point shooters in history.
    Shawn Marion was a 4-time all-star as well, and was all nba 2 times.
    Detlef Schrempf was a 3-time all star, 2 times sixth man of the year, and made and all-nba team
    Horace Grant made the all-nba defensive team 4 times and was one of the best rebounding big men in history
    Charles Oakley twice made an all defensive team
    Ron Artest is a former defensive player of the year, 4-time all defensive team and made the all nba team once
    Richard Hamilton made the all-star team 3 times
    Andrei Kirilenko made an all defensive team 3 times
    Brad Miller is a 2-time all star
    Dan Majerle was a 3-time all star and made an all-defensive team twice. His number is retired by the Suns.
    Juwan Howard was not only an all star, but made an all nba team


    Luol Deng was an all star this season and made an all-nba defensive team

    Where is Rudy Gay's all-nba team spot or all-star berth? Oh yeah, that's right he doesn't have one but he's better than all of these role players. He should just enter the Hall of fame now and have his number retired by the Grizz because he takes over so many games by himself.
    The reason those guys were that good of role players were because they played with guy like mj on their team. So they had no pressure on them to do anything, right now if we had gay and bargnani derozan would probably crack a couple of all star games because the defenses will be closed in on bargs and gay which will give derozan freedom to score.

  20. #100
    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    The reason those guys were that good of role players were because they played with guy like mj on their team. So they had no pressure on them to do anything, right now if we had gay and bargnani derozan would probably crack a couple of all star games because the defenses will be closed in on bargs and gay which will give derozan freedom to score.
    Wow, all of those guys played with Jordan? Jordan sure had a lot of teammates.

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