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Thread: Batum vs JJ

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    Default Batum vs JJ

    sssss ss MPG / FG% / 3pt% / FT% / Orb / Drb / RPG / AST / Blk / Stl / TO / PPG
    Batum: 30.4 / 45.1% / 39.1% / 83.6% / 1.4 / 3.2 / 4.6 / 1.4 / 1.0 / 1.0 / 1.53 / 13.9 6'8'' 23 y/o 7'1'' (or 7'4''?)

    JJ: 25.2 / 45.0% / 31.7% / 70.4% / 1.2 / 3.5 / 4.7 / 2.0 / 1.4 / 1.2 / 1.63 / 9.1 6'9'' 25 y/o 7'1''


    Seeing as how most people on these threads seem real high on Batum, and seemingly little credit to JJ, I thought it would be cool to see them being compared, AKA can JJ really be the starting SF we are looking for.

    Lets start off with: PER 36 Mins, JJ averages more Rebounds(+19%), Assists(+39%, last years asts = +54%), Blocks(+37%), Steals (+31%)
    we can see that JJ is more than a third better at Asts, Blocks, and steals, while being marginally better at rebounds!

    What does Batum have over JJ?
    quick answer: offensive efficiency.

    Ts%: Batum - 57.5% eFG%: 53.4% PP36: 16.4
    JJ - 49.8% 46.8% 13.1

    Clearly JJ is not a strong offensive player, averaging much worse in terms of 3pt%, FT%, but equal FG%.

    Batum has the potential to be a star player, whereas JJ has the potential of a defensive spark plug.

    Defensively both are more than competent with room for growth for both players. JJ's height advantage and overall bulk gives him the upper hand against the SF's in this league.

    Summary:

    Batum is a great player, but perhaps we already have a watered down version of him right under our nose for cheap. JJ shows he can keep up on defense (probably being the best defensive player on the Raps) while having the instincts and intangibles that keep him at the top of the league in blocks and steals. Batum without a jumpshot, but compensated with everything else = JJ. Those assists JJ provide could also prove to be very valuable, showing ability to get teammates involved!

    Personally my favourite scenario that will lock up the SF position for years to come is to have JJ backing up Batum. All of a sudden our SF position has in it a polished offensive game including 3pt shooting, toughness, defense, intangibles, team work, low TOs, and height.
    All in all if Batum does not sign with us, JJ could still be a serviceable starter bringing to the table similar skills to Batum and some superior skills, and he should be considered with a higher perspective.
    Last edited by enlightenment; Thu Jun 21st, 2012 at 03:26 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Jon_Wade's Avatar
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    The problem with watered down versions of other players is when we play those players.... well they are a watered down version...
    Whoever told you skies the limit is looking dumb because I'm 22 and i'm moonwalking on the sun.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    i like jj. i think that he might be of the mindset he is more than others think he is. if he could embrace and excel as a stopper he would be a fantastic reserve for this team.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I first read this thread title as "Batman vs. JJ" :|

    IMO, neither JJ or Batum is our long-term answer at SF.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I first read this thread title as "Batman vs. JJ" :|

    IMO, neither JJ or Batum is our long-term answer at SF.
    having never played basketball batman would still find a way to win on court if that is where jj wanted to battle

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    Raptors Republic Rookie pillowmint's Avatar
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    First it's obvious at this point that Batman would 'try' to play basketball but Bain would break his back on a block, then Van Gundy would get upset on the replay (or alternately call it a clean block).

    As for JJ, those who keep spouting on about JJ being the answer...well, you're nuts. Like batsh!t crazy. You can't measure a guys PER for 36 minutes when he never plays 36 minutes, Batum has, and probably has a lot, JJ on the other hand, probably not as much.

    The real truth is that if JJ was just as good as these potential SF's we're thinking of bringing in, then he would have got the minutes, he'd be a regular in the rotation, but he wasn't. Even in a shortened season, he started a couple of times, came of the bench a lot, was a DNP a couple of times, that in itself is the tell, he's not consistent.

    So now I'm going to have to ask Bain to break JJ's back to end this futile argument.

    Go Raps!
    i8theball.com it's a website...about, you know....basketball.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    But does Batman play in costume, or as Bruce Wayne? The mask would seriously hinder his court-vision....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    But does Batman play in costume, or as Bruce Wayne? The mask would seriously hinder his court-vision....
    Richard Hamilton played with a mask for most of his career, and it didn't seem to hinder him

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    lol, I stand corrected.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I think we have beaten the batum topic to death

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    Agreed.
    Now if somebody can do above analysis comparing JJ with Iggy, I think it would blow everybody's mind.
    The only issue MIGHT BE JJ's "menthal toughness" (or whatever happened near the end of season when he was benched/suspended by team).
    Batum is also capable of playing 2 (JJ, DD, Batum -3 player rotation at 2 & 3?).
    Plus JJ has size to play some 4 (nice to have flexibility).

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Are we really comparing JJ to Batum, as though they are equal-ish players?? Wow.

    Batum has all-star potential, as a solid contributor on both ends of the court. JJ is an inconsistent backup. I'd much rather pay Batum $10M than pay JJ more than $3M.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie pillowmint's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Are we really comparing JJ to Batum, as though they are equal-ish players?? Wow.

    Batum has all-star potential, as a solid contributor on both ends of the court. JJ is an inconsistent backup. I'd much rather pay Batum $10M than pay JJ more than $3M.
    +1 Thank you!
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    Quote pillowmint wrote: View Post
    First it's obvious at this point that Batman would 'try' to play basketball but Bain would break his back on a block, then Van Gundy would get upset on the replay (or alternately call it a clean block).

    As for JJ, those who keep spouting on about JJ being the answer...well, you're nuts. Like batsh!t crazy. You can't measure a guys PER for 36 minutes when he never plays 36 minutes, Batum has, and probably has a lot, JJ on the other hand, probably not as much.

    The real truth is that if JJ was just as good as these potential SF's we're thinking of bringing in, then he would have got the minutes, he'd be a regular in the rotation, but he wasn't. Even in a shortened season, he started a couple of times, came of the bench a lot, was a DNP a couple of times, that in itself is the tell, he's not consistent.

    So now I'm going to have to ask Bain to break JJ's back to end this futile argument.

    Go Raps!
    You are correct. We don't know if JJ can produce (at that projected level) over 35 plus minutes.
    Where was he at the begining of the year? Behind Butler & even Kleiza. I firmly believe that he made huge strides over this shortened season. Is he our answer at 3? I don't know, BUT I sure as hell would give it time to find out BEFORE we commit most of our cap space AND resources (read draft, possibly Ed, Demar and/or ?????) getting Gay or Iggy.
    At least getting Batum (if Portland does not match) would cost us cap space only, while preserving our assets.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    thread would be cooler if it was batman vs jj
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    Most of you are shooting down the idea right away, but none have given a good explanation to dismiss JJ. If it was minutes you guys are worried about, Batum only plays 5mins more per game, the reason i did everything per 36 mins is because JJ averages a lot more assists (especially last year), rebounds, blocks, and steals with 5 less minutes a game. In 36mins, all those stats are about 33% higher than Batum (and almost all other SFs too, including destroying bargnani in terms of blocks despite playing 10 minutes less AND being 3 inches shorter) while the ppg is only differed by about 3points. Height and Age is similar enough, Reach is similar enough, defense goes to JJ. My point is JJ is more than serviceable due to his abilities to do everything else BUT score in the same fashion, if not BETTER than, Batum can. If you say otherwise, tell me WHY you say otherwise.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    even FG% was the same, it is 3pt shooting and ft shooting that Batum has up above JJ

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Most of you are shooting down the idea right away, but none have given a good explanation to dismiss JJ. If it was minutes you guys are worried about, Batum only plays 5mins more per game, the reason i did everything per 36 mins is because JJ averages a lot more assists (especially last year), rebounds, blocks, and steals with 5 less minutes a game. In 36mins, all those stats are about 33% higher than Batum (and almost all other SFs too, including destroying bargnani in terms of blocks despite playing 10 minutes less AND being 3 inches shorter) while the ppg is only differed by about 3points. Height and Age is similar enough, Reach is similar enough, defense goes to JJ. My point is JJ is more than serviceable due to his abilities to do everything else BUT score in the same fashion, if not BETTER than, Batum can. If you say otherwise, tell me WHY you say otherwise.
    Mainly from watching games.

    JJ is an overrated defender who looks better than he actually is because he plays on a team full of pathetic individual defenders. He goes for highlight reel blocks and steals too often, many times leaving his man wide open. He is a typical stat-stuffer on a bad team. On offense, he would often kill the team's momentum by jacking up terrible shots and was very inconsistent knocking down wide-open looks from beyond the arc. He thinks he is a star player who won't accept what his role should be, hence his run-in with Casey and subsequent benching. He would be a great backup player on any team, if he would accept a role simialr to Bruce Bowen or even Tony Allen - solid, unspectacular defense, 4th or 5th option on offense who doesn't force anything, plays within himself and basically limits the unforced errors.

    Batum only moved into the starting lineup halfway through last season for Portland, on a team decimated by injuries and trades. He has shown flashes of brilliance and is a much better player fundamentally than JJ. Batum has the ability and potential to become one of the top wings in the league.

    You can't rely on stats alone. Just watch games and get an honest, unbiased feel for both players and there won't even be a comparison, IMO.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    Most of you are shooting down the idea right away, but none have given a good explanation to dismiss JJ. If it was minutes you guys are worried about, Batum only plays 5mins more per game, the reason i did everything per 36 mins is because JJ averages a lot more assists (especially last year), rebounds, blocks, and steals with 5 less minutes a game. In 36mins, all those stats are about 33% higher than Batum (and almost all other SFs too, including destroying bargnani in terms of blocks despite playing 10 minutes less AND being 3 inches shorter) while the ppg is only differed by about 3points. Height and Age is similar enough, Reach is similar enough, defense goes to JJ. My point is JJ is more than serviceable due to his abilities to do everything else BUT score in the same fashion, if not BETTER than, Batum can. If you say otherwise, tell me WHY you say otherwise.
    Few things. You are dimissing the differences on the offensive end too quickly. Outside of about 3 feet JJ is a horrendous shooter. His FG% is misleading in that it doesn't indicate how totally ineffective he is outside of layups and dunks. When you are analyzing perimeter players, the ability to hit jumpshoots is important. Batum has range, which affects not only his offense but opens the floor for everyone else.

    Extrapolating numbers is one thing, actual production is another. There's a reason why JJ play less and you can't assume greater production in bigger minutes. Defensively, JJ makes too many mistakes. For every weakside block there's a missed rotation... and so on.

    Johnson isn't terrible or useless but he has too many issues to be a starting SF on a good team. I do think he could be useful in a bench role but he needs to improve his outside shooting or he's a tough guy to leave on the floor in key situations.

  20. #20
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    its a 5minutes difference to Batum. Extrapolating to 36mins per game to compare the two (which are normally 5mpg apart) does not skew the results, obviously the numbers themselves really do not matter, thats why i did not post them, I just showed how much more efficiently (33%!) JJ is at Blks, Stls, Assists, and Rebounds compared to Batum.

    My argument is that the lack of a jumpshot is the only difference, is this a difference that deserves 4-6 extra million dollars? In certain cases, if you have no jumpshooting anywhere else in your roster, than yeah it is worth it (Batum is still clearly the much better player) but otherwise I feel safe with the positive impact JJ has on the team and would not mind one bit to see him start at SF. In fact I would like to see what happens if he gets a consistent starting job all season. (His Win shares were like the only positive WS rate on the team.)

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