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Thread: Batum vs JJ

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    its a 5minutes difference to Batum. Extrapolating to 36mins per game to compare the two (which are normally 5mpg apart) does not skew the results, obviously the numbers themselves really do not matter, thats why i did not post them, I just showed how much more efficiently (33%!) JJ is at Blks, Stls, Assists, and Rebounds compared to Batum.

    My argument is that the lack of a jumpshot is the only difference, is this a difference that deserves 4-6 extra million dollars? In certain cases, if you have no jumpshooting anywhere else in your roster, than yeah it is worth it (Batum is still clearly the much better player) but otherwise I feel safe with the positive impact JJ has on the team and would not mind one bit to see him start at SF. In fact I would like to see what happens if he gets a consistent starting job all season. (His Win shares were like the only positive WS rate on the team.)
    I agree with enlightenment, I think JJ is a great player especially for what we pay him. I wish someone could do an analysis of JJ's shooting numbers from the first half of the season and the second half of the season we will see that his mid range jumper improved by leaps and bounds towards the end of the season.

    People have to remember that last year was the first year that JJ actually had consistent minutes since he came into the NBA, I think his numbers are quite impressive considering that fact.

    He is our best defensive player. I hear people making the argument that "he is just a stat stuffer", everyone who plays in the NBA trys to be a stat stuffer, the difference is that JJ actually does it. The only thing I can think of that is a negative about him is the spat that he had with Casey at the end of the year. I would love to see the raptors give him another shit this year, and start him from the beginning of the year, to see what we really have in him.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    its a 5minutes difference to Batum. Extrapolating to 36mins per game to compare the two (which are normally 5mpg apart) does not skew the results, obviously the numbers themselves really do not matter, thats why i did not post them, I just showed how much more efficiently (33%!) JJ is at Blks, Stls, Assists, and Rebounds compared to Batum.

    My argument is that the lack of a jumpshot is the only difference, is this a difference that deserves 4-6 extra million dollars? In certain cases, if you have no jumpshooting anywhere else in your roster, than yeah it is worth it (Batum is still clearly the much better player) but otherwise I feel safe with the positive impact JJ has on the team and would not mind one bit to see him start at SF. In fact I would like to see what happens if he gets a consistent starting job all season. (His Win shares were like the only positive WS rate on the team.)
    You're missing the point that both Slaw and myself made about JJ's defense. Yes, he stuffs the stat sheets by gambling for highlight reel plays, but none of that makes a difference when he consistently leaves his man wide open and/or misses his rotations, as a result of his high risk approach.

    From watching pretty much every Raptor game, I would argue against your claim that "the positive impact JJ has on the team". I think he's an overrated defender who plays too risky for the starting lineup and that he is a detriment on offense, because he can't consistently make open outside shots (same argument against DD and his bad 3pt %) and will often go into selfish mode and try to make some boneheaded play that costs the team a possession.

    I prefer to temper stats with actually watching games.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I think JJ is a good weak side/help defender, but not the greatest 1-on-1 defender. But then again, he's better than DeRozan, Barbosa or Kleiza in that regard.
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  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star tucas's Avatar
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    Something everyone is overlooking on the offensive end is that teams defensive game plans against Portland revolves around stopping aldridge and batum. Where as on the raptors it's more trying to stop bargnani and Demar. Teams dont make adjustments to stop JJ because they really don't need to. And although I do believe JJ is the better defender it's not by as large of a difference then the stats show because again JJ is a good defender on a mediocre defensive team making him look better. Having watched Portland and Toronto games I can 100% say batum is significantly better then JJ and has the potential to be a top 5 sf in the league

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic All-Star enlightenment's Avatar
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    I watch a majority of games as well and what I have witnessed is JJ being put on the floor and then all of a sudden making a ridiculous pass that none of our other wings could do, gets the rest of the team involved (his assists are HIGH, nothing to do with stat stuffing, more to do with skill) and all of a sudden begins this momentum shift. Yes I have seen him miss rotations and miss jumpshots, ofcourse! But the fact that at 6'9'' he is the 22nd best Blocker in the LEAGUE while playing 25 mins a game, is astonishing! This is consistency, to average 1.6 blocks a game at SF is incredible, he is not blocking layups, he is closing in on his man and blocking jumpshots. I have never seen a raptor block as many jumpshots as JJ. His rebounding clearly shows his energy and motor, and that passes the eye test as well. These are intangibles I believe JJ brings, remember he can always improve. I remember Him leaving Danny Granger open to lose the game for us, but he has only been 3 years pro now (one less year than Batum). I expect him to be a lot smarter, and a real asset soon, probably in the upcoming season he will do a little bit of a break out, from risky player to consistently solid player

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote enlightenment wrote: View Post
    I watch a majority of games as well and what I have witnessed is JJ being put on the floor and then all of a sudden making a ridiculous pass that none of our other wings could do, gets the rest of the team involved (his assists are HIGH, nothing to do with stat stuffing, more to do with skill) and all of a sudden begins this momentum shift. Yes I have seen him miss rotations and miss jumpshots, ofcourse! But the fact that at 6'9'' he is the 22nd best Blocker in the LEAGUE while playing 25 mins a game, is astonishing! This is consistency, to average 1.6 blocks a game at SF is incredible, he is not blocking layups, he is closing in on his man and blocking jumpshots. I have never seen a raptor block as many jumpshots as JJ. His rebounding clearly shows his energy and motor, and that passes the eye test as well. These are intangibles I believe JJ brings, remember he can always improve. I remember Him leaving Danny Granger open to lose the game for us, but he has only been 3 years pro now (one less year than Batum). I expect him to be a lot smarter, and a real asset soon, probably in the upcoming season he will do a little bit of a break out, from risky player to consistently solid player
    +1 JJ has a chance to be a special defensive player, and an adequate 9-12 pts a game offensive player as well. If given the choice between a 3 million dollar JJ and a 9 million dollar Batum, the choice to me is obvious. JJ ftw.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Rookie pillowmint's Avatar
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    Honestly, If JJ was this secret amazing player in the league and we're all wearing blinders, then how come the rumor mill isn't blowing up with his name? How come towards the end of the season is when we started seeing the DNP's? I don't hate JJ, but he just doesn't have the tangibles your stats are suggesting. If he did, believe me it wouldn't be just a Raptors fantasy board talking about him. How come Casey or Colangelo aren't talking about not needing to fill the wing position because they have their guy? I don't think there is a conspiracy here.

    It's like Demar, sure he's an atheletic freak, but every summer some Raps fan gets waaaay to pumped up because Demar dropped 59 pts. on Master P. It's not the same as the NBA. Just isn't. Sadly, we've seen what Demar is capable of, we aren't building a franchise around him.

    You can rely on your advanced stats, I'm going to go with what I'm hearing and seeing (not much). I promise this is not a personal attack, or a put down on JJ, but we'll see what type of a season he has. My gut tells me not much of one. Sorry?
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  8. #28
    Raptors Republic Rookie Phat Farmer's Avatar
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    I would like to challenge the notion of JJ being a careless defender being that I watched pretty much every raptor game this year. All good defenders are known to take gambles occassionally on defense. JJ is a great 1 on 1 defender and probably 2nd to Amir Johnson on our team for his help defense. Do you think Casey would've played him half the minutes he did if he was as overrated on defense as you say he is? Are you going back to that game against Indiana where he lost Granger and he hit that dagger in our face? Dont crucify him for that.

    Second, the issue with JJ and Coach was minor, what leads you to believe it was because he thought he was higher in the pecking order than he really was? http://thestar.blogs.com/raptors/201...windmills.html

    Was he guilty of a misguided shot or two? Of course, who isn't? In my opinion when you are among the hardest workers on your team, regardless of the team's overall skill level, you earn that right every now and then. Last year was still his first full season getting legit minutes. I think enlightment is trying to say that given those circumstances that JJ has done enough to deserve an extended look from the team ( not necessarily starter's minutes or being a starter) as opposed to just writing him off.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    If James Johnson keeps improving his shooting and IQ (which he has, but still ways to go), I really wouldn't mind him staying with the Raptors; fringe starter?

    He's 25 years old. Maybe he's coming around the realization that, hey, my role is a defensive stopper & not so much as an offensive playmaker (which he sees himself at times) -- and accepts that role.

    Mark my words: JAMES JOHNSON IS AN EXCELLENT PERIMETER DEFENDER & ONE OF THE BETTER DEFENSIVE PLAYERS IN HIS POSITION, THE BEST ON THE TEAM & RIVALS SOME OF THE PERCEIVED 'STOPPERS'.
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  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Are we really comparing JJ to Batum, as though they are equal-ish players?? Wow.

    Batum has all-star potential, as a solid contributor on both ends of the court. JJ is an inconsistent backup. I'd much rather pay Batum $10M than pay JJ more than $3M.
    Im not being sarcastic here, but i really cant see the all-star potential in Batum. Ive seen his games a couple of times, but i cant quite put him in the same level as Gay, JSmoove, Deng or Granger who are all all-star level.

    I might be missing something. JJ is not all-star level either, but i think he's only inferiority to Batum is his offense, but not even by a wide margin.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Starter SuperRaptor's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im not being sarcastic here, but i really cant see the all-star potential in Batum. Ive seen his games a couple of times, but i cant quite put him in the same level as Gay, JSmoove, Deng or Granger who are all all-star level.

    I might be missing something. JJ is not all-star level either, but i think he's only inferiority to Batum is his offense, but not even by a wide margin.
    +1

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Im not being sarcastic here, but i really cant see the all-star potential in Batum. Ive seen his games a couple of times, but i cant quite put him in the same level as Gay, JSmoove, Deng or Granger who are all all-star level.

    I might be missing something. JJ is not all-star level either, but i think he's only inferiority to Batum is his offense, but not even by a wide margin.
    I feel the same way about Batum. I just can't justify an 8-figure salary for a player who really hasn't done anything.

    I'm not suggesting JJ is the answer, but I don't think it would be Batum. I would honestly feel more comfortable with Wilson Chandler.
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  13. #33
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptorsss's Avatar
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    Both enlightenment and CalgaryRapsFans are right, but both are missing the point. One, Batum isn't an all-star talent he may be just be a more skilled version of Tony Allen or a poor man's Deng. What he does do is offer versatility, where he can guard 2-4 and can shoot fairly consistency.

    JJ still has some growing up to do, but he can be something special. I think JJ's biggest problem is playing within Casey's system, his unwillingness or inablity to do so. It might be just a smokescreen, but Casey says they need to improve the 3 spot.
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  14. #34
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    I like JJ a lot but have said MANY times this year and last: he is a solid bench player. I think he would be great on the second team, but as much as I like him and his game he is not a long term starter.

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