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Thread: Raptors Uniquely Positioned to Trade for 2nd Pick

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Default Raptors Uniquely Positioned to Trade for 2nd Pick

    2nd Pick Available for taking on Tyrus Thomas Contract
    Here's the link.

    http://www.sbnation.com/nba-draft/2012/6/27/3120501/nba-trade-rumors-bobcats-pick-tyrus-thomas/in/2836609


    According to multiple sources, the Bobcats are trying to convince teams interested in the second pick to also take back disappointing power forward Tyrus Thomas, who has more than $26 million remaining on his contract. Thomas is coming off the worst season since his rookie year as he averaged just 5.6 points and 3.7 rebounds.

    When asked if teams would be willing to touch Thomas, one Western Conference executive said, "I don't think so."
    Thanks to the Barbosa trade, the Raps are one of only 2 teams teams in the league (other is Sacramento) that are able to take on Thomas's contract without having to send any salary back before the draft. This combined with the contracts we have brings up a bunch of scenarios where the Raptors make ideal trade partners.

    1. Raps send Bobcats the 8th pick for the 2nd pick and Tyrus Thomas.
    I'm thinking the Bobcats do this as they clear a horrible contract and only drop back 6 spots in the draft. They can still get a really good player at 8, maybe just as good as they could at 2. Is it worth it for the Raps is another question that I'll leave up for debate.

    2. Raps send Bobcats the 8th pick and Ed Davis for the 2nd pick and Tyrus Thomas.
    If 8 and cap relief isn't enough for the 2nd pick, we could include Ed Davis who fits a need for the Bobcats and is still on a cheap rookie contract so they still get some cap relief. Thomas's contract is just awful so I don't see the Raps being interested here. On the plus side it frees up the logjam at PF.

    3. Raps send Bobcats the 8th pick and Amir for the 2nd pick and Tyrus Thomas.
    Maybe the Raps have the upper hand in negotiations and can send back one of there questionable contracts too, albeit a much much better contract and player. Amir's contract is the same length as Thomas, but the Bobcats would save $6.5 million over the length of the deal. Not to mention they would get a player who fits a need and will actually earn most of their contract.

    4. Raps send Bobcats Jose Calderon for the 2nd Pick and Tyrus Thomas
    Thomas had a PER of 9 last season. He's a PF who shot 0.367 FG. He scored 5 pts and 3.7 rebounds a game. Tyrus Thomas sucked last season, and Tyrus Thomas has 3 years and $26 million left on his deal. This is a really bad contract. If Thomas contract is the cancer the quote at the top implies, maybe Charlotte does a deal like this. They get a nice salary dump in Calderon's expiring contract, rid themselves of Thomas awful deal, and actually bring back a really nice player.

    5. Raps send Bobcats Ed Davis for the 2nd pick and Tyrus Thomas
    The Bobcats rid themselves of Thomas contract and get back a nice player at a position of need on a cheap rookie deal. Doesn't make the Raptors logjam at PF any better or worse.


    Now we would obviously have to make some more moves (or Amnesty someone) with a few of these scenarios to clear up a log jam at PF (or salary cap space for a FA), but assume that we can do that.

    While Tyrus Thomas was abysmal in 2011-12, he was actually decent in 2010-11. Oddly enough, that year he played 2/3 of his minutes at C, where he was significantly more effective both offensively, and especially defensively. While abysmal at guarding PF, he was actually above average at guarding C according to 82games.com.
    In 2010-11 Thomas averaged 21 min, 10 pts, 5.5 reb, 1.6 blks and had a PER of 18.2. He actually had a PER of 16 and above the 3 years prior, and his lowest PER ever was 14.7.
    There is a good chance that Thomas decline was directly linked to being pushed back to PF full time (83% of his playing time) by the presence of Biyombo. Looking back even further bears this out. In 2009-10, once traded to the Bobcats (41 games), Thomas played nearly half of his minutes at C, where he was great on offense and above average on defense. He was once again horrendous at PF. So......
    If Toronto were to play him as a backup C to Jonas, he could be a decent piece, and will be affordable if you look at money spent per position, since Jonas will be on a rookie deal for the next 4 years, and Gray will be playing for the vet min.

    So let's say we make the trade, and we've got the 2nd pick. Who do we draft with it? Here are the candidates:

    1. Bradley Beal
    2. Michael Kidd-Gilchrist
    3. Harrison Barnes
    4. Thomas Robinson

    I really like both Beal and Kidd-Gilchrist for the Raptors. In my opinion, any of those trade scenarios would be worth it to get either of those guys. We'd get our SG or SF of the future with real star potential, and we wouldn't have to give up any players that are in our future plans to do so (Ed's at best a back up of the future).

    What do you guys think? Do you do any of those deals? Who do you want with the pick? Do you think Thomas could bounce back to 2010-11 levels of play with a move back to C? Are there any other deals you'd want instead?

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    I want no part of Thomas and that massive deal he has.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    The only one that interest me at all is #5. I wouldn't want to giveup the #8 pick AND take on Thomas' contract, just to move up 6 spots. #4 would never work, as Jordan already vetoed one trade for Calderon.

    I would strongly consider a variation of #5:

    To Charlotte
    - #37 (and/or perhaps 2013 1st round pick)
    - Davis
    - $7.3M TPE

    To Toronto
    - #2
    - Thomas


    I'd love to see Toronto wind up with #2 & #8... either to draft two players, or to allow them to trade for Rudy Gay AND still have a lottery pick!!!

    But man, that Thomas contract is FUGLY! I'm not entirely sure it would be worth it.

    ----

    ESPN TRADE MACHINE --> has been updated to reflect what teams will look like on July 1st
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 01:31 PM.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I want no part of Thomas and that massive deal he has.
    Well you'd have to think about it, we ARE getting MKG in return. That is reason enough to take the deal IMO.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I think I'm the only one on the board who would, but it's only because I think Thomas has actual talent that Casey could harness.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    I think I'm the only one on the board who would, but it's only because I think Thomas has actual talent that Casey could harness.
    Plus he'd only be expected to be 3rd string PF. I wouldn't mind watching him rot in that spot as much as it pained me to watch Davis get such limited minutes this season. It's just the fact that he's set to make $8M, $8.7M & $9.4M over the next 3 seasons... that's a ton of money to be paying a 3rd stinger. If it was a little less money and/or even one less year...

    If Charlotte would take Amir instead of Davis, then I'd consider it even more strongly, since the cap hit would only be an additional $2M instead of $5.8M next season.

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    People have been wanting the Raptors to swing for the fences and use our special cap space situation, and I think this accomplishes that. If Thomas can play a decent 15-20 minutes at backup C then we can bear overpaying him because only $3.1 million will be tied up in Jonas and likely $2.5 million in Gray, with Thomas $8 million for a total of $13.6 million at the C position. That's a lot less than the $18.2 million we'd spend on PF next year without a trade. Obviously it's not perfect, and it's still a bad contract no matter how you slice it, I just think the Raptors are one of the few teams positioned cap wise to handle taking on a bad contract while maintaining flexibility. Just a matter of how much the #2 pick is worth.

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Tesla wrote: View Post
    Well you'd have to think about it, we ARE getting MKG in return. That is reason enough to take the deal IMO.
    Where is he going to get minutes from? We already have Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Kleiza and Valanciunas coming in. Where does Thomas fit in? And at what point from a lack of playing time would he become a distraction? He's already proven to have maturity issues.

    Also, Charlotte is hurting for size up front but they want to get rid of Thomas? It means they dont think too highly of him. We shouldn't either.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    hey prime is that you?

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Where is he going to get minutes from? We already have Bargnani, Davis, Amir, Kleiza and Valanciunas coming in. Where does Thomas fit in? And at what point from a lack of playing time would he become a distraction? He's already proven to have maturity issues.

    Also, Charlotte is hurting for size up front but they want to get rid of Thomas? It means they dont think too highly of him. We shouldn't either.
    Is there a any reason that we would play him at all? He can replace Alabi's position and warm the bench for everyone. I dont buy into this "distraction" stuff, how would he distract the team? By complaining to Ed how little he plays and playing practical jokes on him to kill some time? Was Luke Walton a distraction to the Lakers?

    Getting MKG in return is worth it.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote Tesla wrote: View Post
    Is there a any reason that we would play him at all? He can replace Alabi's position and warm the bench for everyone. I dont buy into this "distraction" stuff, how would he distract the team? By complaining to Ed how little he plays and playing practical jokes on him to kill some time? Was Luke Walton a distraction to the Lakers?

    Getting MKG in return is worth it.
    No, getting MKG is NOT worth taking on 27M over the next 3 years for an 8-10th man. That's crazy talk. You're suggesting paying approx. 12M/year for MKG, because Thomas is a scrub who has no role on this team.
    Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jimmie wrote: View Post
    No, getting MKG is NOT worth taking on 27M over the next 3 years for an 8-10th man. That's crazy talk. You're suggesting paying approx. 12M/year for MKG, because Thomas is a scrub who has no role on this team.
    And Thomas is crazy and thinks he is MUCH better than he is.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    only way id take tyrus is to move 1 of our bad contracts in the process

    otherwise id keep our pick

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Quote Tesla wrote: View Post
    Is there a any reason that we would play him at all? He can replace Alabi's position and warm the bench for everyone. I dont buy into this "distraction" stuff, how would he distract the team? By complaining to Ed how little he plays and playing practical jokes on him to kill some time? Was Luke Walton a distraction to the Lakers?

    Getting MKG in return is worth it.
    There's a massive difference between Luke Walton and Ty Thomas. Walton is a mature, team player that knew his role on the team. Thomas had an altercation with his coach in April. Even his own teammates question is maturity. All of that headache for Kidd-Gilchrist? No thanks.

    And again, for whatever reason it's failing on you is that Charlotte is in dire of big men but they want to give him away. How does that not strike you as alarming? It means that the kid has real issues. Why should we take that on, and at that salary to boot?
    Last edited by MangoKid; Wed Jun 27th, 2012 at 02:59 PM.

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    If we were to do option 4 or 5, how much could we get out of Houston with our two picks? I don't think Howard would sign here (ever), but Houston seems to think he'd sign there. I think we could get Lowry, Courtney Lee, and one of Motiejunas or Parson too in addition to some combination of 14/16/18, easily.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    funny how human thinking works. Picking at 8, you're lamenting all the guys you'll just miss out on. Given the opportunity to pick 2nd (while taking on extra money), it's hmmph, I don't think there's somebody I really want. It's almost like the perfect pick (other than 1) to trade for is 3-5 and then you can just get one of a bunch of good guys without having to give up too much. Then again, I'd probably find something to complain about then.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The only one that interest me at all is #5. I wouldn't want to giveup the #8 pick AND take on Thomas' contract, just to move up 6 spots. #4 would never work, as Jordan already vetoed one trade for Calderon.

    I would strongly consider a variation of #5:

    To Charlotte
    - #37 (and/or perhaps 2013 1st round pick)
    - Davis
    - $7.3M TPE

    To Toronto
    - #2
    - Thomas


    I'd love to see Toronto wind up with #2 & #8... either to draft two players, or to allow them to trade for Rudy Gay AND still have a lottery pick!!!

    But man, that Thomas contract is FUGLY! I'm not entirely sure it would be worth it.

    ----

    ESPN TRADE MACHINE --> has been updated to reflect what teams will look like on July 1st
    I don't think Charlotte would trade with us unless we give them the 8th pick. As much as they want to give up Tyrus Thomas, if they do this trade, they are still not better than they were last season. The trade you have given, is a Raptors fan's wet dream

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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    I think I'm the only one on the board who would, but it's only because I think Thomas has actual talent that Casey could harness.
    Agreed. If Casey can get Bargnani to play at least some defense, Casey might actually be able to get Tyrus Thomas to play better...

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    only way id take tyrus is to move 1 of our bad contracts in the process

    otherwise id keep our pick
    What bad contracts do you consider the Raptors to have?

    Bargnani is debatable but I would say no.
    Amir is not as bad as people think. It is not guaranteed for the final yaer and was never the 5 years/$34M that initially was reported.
    JJ, DeMar, ED still on rookie contracts.
    Kleiza is debatable. Personally I think his contract is reasonable as an 8-9 guy off the bench who can play SF/PF and shoot the 3.
    Jose's was bad but with one year left and a productive season last year, not so much.

    I'm not trying to be confrontational, just curious who you think one of TOR's bad contracts are.

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    Quote Tesla wrote: View Post
    Well you'd have to think about it, we ARE getting MKG in return. That is reason enough to take the deal IMO.
    2, the number of jumpshots MKG hits when he shoots about 10 of them.

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