Disgruntled Fans 2012: Extended stinkfest? (#296)

[NoBan]

Much appreciated the thoughts, CalgaryRapsFan.


I can sympathize the Bosh thing having lived through all the messy details. But I stil believe he waited far, far too long. The Utah approach was the right move. At the time, guys like Bynum and both Gasols were attainable for CB4. With hindsight, we know 2 things for sure. Trading Bosh after we made the playoffs would have been a very, very tough sell. Not trading Bosh that year doomed us to lotto oblivion. So was it really the right call or did BC get overwhelmed by public opinion (which doesn't happen to quality GMs).

Hakeem/Nash are comparable in that we are bringing in an aging player, years removed from his peak. Now, Nash is a better bet for success than Hakeem, no doubt. But it's a similar refrain of running through his career accomplishments and ignoring the age/milage factor. Also, the Nash/Fields combo at $18 million per is ludicrous. Those guys combine for 30 mins a game on any legit contender (28 for Nash, 2 for Fields - being generous for Landry there). I get the leadership/professionalism component, but is that really worth max money once you factor in the zero we're getting in Fields?

You're correct that Davis hasn't had the best opportunities. But we're 3 years in on DD and 2 years in on ED and we're still hanging hats on "he still has room to improve". At this point we should be able to make the sink/swim judgement. It's sink for both guys so far.



NO YOUUUU SHUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTUPPP!!! ;-)

[Blacklash2k4]

With all the risky moves that are getting made/reported, it's a decent time to talk about if we really trust the GM. To me, it's clear from his track record (4 straigh lottos) that he is not to be trusted with anything. It's interesting to see that most of the fans on this board actually still trust the guy whole-heartedly.

If you'd like to evaluate based 100% on hindsight, he's already shown the plan. Fields and Nash at a combined $55 million until 2016.

You may now continue to insult me. I feel very confident I will be exonorated once we're using hindsight.

I see no reason why we should fire him. We has done absolutely nothing excruciatingly horrible to absolutely destroy the franchise. BC had a bad situation coming into the franchise while they were building around Bosh. Every single thing that he has down has been rational and had good support for. He has lead us to two franchise playoff in his 6 years. Let me show you why your accusations are completely stupid and unnecessary:

2006-2007 Season: We made playoffs and BC was Executive of the Year.
2007-2008 Season: We also made playoffs, but a better Magic team beat us in the first round
2008-2009 Season: We traded for the six time All-Star in O'Neal which was a blockbuster trade at the time. We just made playoffs so this trade made sense to help push us over the first round. He played decently but eventually got injured which ruined the playoff run. In no way is O'Neal getting injured BC's fault. He had a slight injury history previously, but it was risk that would have paid off handsomely if he could stay healthy. It's NBA basketball. Players will get injured. If O'Neal could have stayed healthy, we could have made playoffs for the 3rd straight time.
2009-2010 Season: We drafted Demar Derozan and we got Turk which was really good idea at the time. The Magic had just come out of the NBA Finals last season and Turk was one of their best players, so this was a major signing. He was also signed to entice Bosh to say with Toronto, so we had to overpay him a bit. Like we have learned by now, he was to overpay FAs to get them to come. There was no way to predict that he would be shit and slack off the way he did. Due to Turk's true nature of laziness, we couldn't make playoffs for the second straight year. Again, the signing of Turk was not BC's fault since he was the main reasons why the Magic even made it to the NBA Finals. If Turk had worked out and played the way he did with the Magic, we could have easily made it far in the playoffs.
2010-2011 Season: Bosh leaves for Miami and we tanked the season without him. He tried to get Tyson Chandler (who was one of the best player on the 2010-2011 NBA Champion Mavs Team) but MJ cock-blocked us and canceled the deal. The fact that the deal didn't go through was not BC's fault. Tyson Chandler would have help us with our mediocre defense and we wouldn't have tanked as hard as we did. This was the tanking season, so there was nothing BC could have done better in this season to help us get to the playoffs.
2011-2012 Season: We drafted Jonas Valanciunas who is one of the most anticipated Raptors player in the 2012-2013 season. BC also hired our new defensive head coach in Dwayne Casey (the assistant coach who was said to be the reason why the Mavs won the championship in the 2010-2011 season) who helped us develop a defensive mentality in a horrible defensive team. This was also a tanking season to help rebuild this broken franchise. Again, there was nothing BC could have done to make us a playoff team.
2012-2013 Season (Hasn't happened yet): We drafted Terrance Ross, while controversial and unexpected, was the right and safe pick for the future since he provides offense (which we sorely need) as well as defense. BC is chasing aggressively to get Nash. While Nash is 38 years old, he is still one of the best PG to ever play this game. He will give this franchise the recognition and credibility that it has lost the past 4 season. He will also help out with the offense (which again, we sorely need) and help develop our young core which he has done in the past with Phoenix. BC made an offer to Fields. Fields is a solid player who never got a chance to develop properly because of Carmelo. Remember than Fields is only going into his third year. He plays solid defense while proving good 3 point shooting (which is another thing we sorely need). He offered him a back-loaded contract which means he only gets $5 million for the first two years and $10 million the third year. We can trade him in the third year as an RFA with an expiring contract of $10 million. BC is still not done with the free agency, so there is no point evaluating his performance this year until he has completely shown us what he is planning.

So I think I made my point! Out of the season I just stated, he has done absolutely nothing wrong to destroy the franchise. Every single thing he has done for the Raptors have been well thought out and made logical sense. If anything, it was pure bad luck (O'Neal getting injured), bad coaching (Jay Triano not coaching Turk well enough to discipline him), and Bosh leaving us for the Heat that explains why we are this bad for the past 4 season. BC hasn't done a single thing seriously wrong that warrants an immediate firing. Your accusation and everyone else's accusation of firing BC is just a need to place the blame on someone else to explain the failings of the Raptors. In other words, you only blame him because you're mad that we have sucked for the past 4 years, so you have to find someone to put the blame on. Frankly, it's only human nature to find someone to blame, but you clearly haven't even thought this thing out.

[Matt52]

I see no reason why we should fire him. We has done absolutely nothing excruciatingly horrible to absolutely destroy the franchise. BC had a bad situation coming into the franchise while they were building around Bosh. Every single thing that he has down has been rational and had good support for. He has lead us to two franchise playoff in his 6 years. Let me show you why your accusations are completely stupid and unnecessary:

2006-2007 Season: We made playoffs and BC was Executive of the Year.
2007-2008 Season: We also made playoffs, but a better Magic team beat us in the first round
2008-2009 Season: We traded for the six time All-Star in O'Neal which was a blockbuster trade at the time. We just made playoffs so this trade made sense to help push us over the first round. He played decently but eventually got injured which ruined the playoff run. In no way is O'Neal getting injured BC's fault. He had a slight injury history previously, but it was risk that would have paid off handsomely if he could stay healthy. It's NBA basketball. Players will get injured.
2009-2010 Season: We drafted Demar Derozan and we got Turk which was really good idea at the time. The Magic had just come out of the NBA playoffs and Turk was one of their best players, so this was a major signing. He was also signed to entice Bosh to say with Toronto, so we had to overpay him a bit. Like we have learned by now, he was to overpay FAs to get them to come. There was no way to predict that he would be shit and slack off the way he did. Due to Turk's true nature of laziness, we couldn't make playoffs for the second straight year. Again, the signing of Turk was not BC's fault since he was the main reasons why the Magic even made it to the NBA playoffs.
2010-2011 Season: Bosh leaves for Miami and we tanked the season without him. He tried to get Tyson Chandler (who was one of the best player on the 2010-2011 NBA Champion Mavs Team) but MJ cock-blocked us and canceled the deal. The fact that the deal didn't go through was not BC's fault. Tyson Chandler would have help us with our mediocre defense and we wouldn't have tanked as hard as we did. This was the tanking season, so there was nothing BC could have done in this season to help us.
2011-2012 Season: We drafted Jonas Valanciunas who is one of the most anticipated Raptors player in the 2012-2013 season. BC also hired our new defensive head coach in Dwayne Casey (the assistant coach who was said to be the reason why the Mavs won the championship in the 2010-2011 season) who helped us develop a defensive mentality in a horrible defensive team. This was also a tanking season to help rebuild this broken franchise. Again, there was nothing BC could have done to make us a playoff team.
2012-2013 Season (Hasn't happened yet): We drafted Terrance Ross, while controversial and unexpected, was the right and safe pick for the future since he provides offense (which we sorely need) as well as defense. BC is chasing aggressively to get Nash. While Nash is 38 years old, he is still one of the best PG to ever play this game. He will give this franchise the recognition and credibility that it has lost the past 4 season. He will also help out with the offense (which again, we sorely need) and help develop our young core which he has done in the past with Phoenix. BC made an offer to Fields. Fields is a solid player who never got a chance to develop properly because of Carmelo. Remember than Fields is only going into his third year. He plays solid defense while proving good 3 point shooting (which is another thing we sorely need). He offered him a back-loaded contract which means he only gets $5 million for the first two years and $10 million the third year. We can trade him in the third year as an RFA with an expiring contract of $10 million. BC is still not done with the free agency, so there is no point evaluating his performance this year until he has completely shown us what he is planning.

So I think I made my point! Out of the season I just stated, he has done absolutely nothing wrong to destroy the franchise. Every single thing he has done for the Raptors have been well thought out and made logical sense. If anything, it was pure bad luck (O'Neal getting injured), bad coaching (Jay Triano not coaching Turk well enough to discipline him), and Bosh leaving us for the Heat that explains why we are this bad for the past 4 season. BC hasn't done a single thing seriously wrong that warrants an immediate firing. Your accusation and everyone else's accusation of firing BC is just a need to place the blame on someone else to explain the failings of the Raptors. In other words, you only blame him because you're mad that we have sucked for the past 4 years, so you have to find someone to put the blame on. Frankly, it's only human nature to find someone to blame, but you clearly haven't even thought this thing out.

Nice post. I agree with most.

I've defended BC a number of times. However, I do think if the Raps fail to make the playoffs this year, it might be time to move on. It all depends on the circumstances that surround the as yet unplayed season.

As for Bosh, I do place blame with BC. Unfortunately, the Raps (and Cavs) were guinea pigs for a new age in the NBA where players in their prime did not accept max money and years to stay. What happened in Utah and Denver is a direct result of what happened in Toronto and Cleveland. If your star player does not accept a max extension, trade him.

It is unfortunate the Raps had to be the test case for the league.

[Blacklash2k4]

Nice post. I agree with most.

I've defended BC a number of times. However, I do think if the Raps fail to make the playoffs this year, it might be time to move on. It all depends on the circumstances that surround the as yet unplayed season.

As for Bosh, I do place blame with BC. Unfortunately, the Raps (and Cavs) were guinea pigs for a new age in the NBA where players in their prime did not accept max money and years to stay. What happened in Utah and Denver is a direct result of what happened in Toronto and Cleveland. If your star player does not accept a max extension, trade him.

It is unfortunate the Raps had to be the test case for the league.

That's why I voted B in the poll. I think this has to be the year in which we make the playoffs. As for the whole Bosh situation, I have to agree that BC should have traded him, but I don't think we could have made playoffs in the 2010-2011 season even if we did trade away Bosh. We might be better off right now if we did trade Bosh, but there no use dwelling on the past. What's done is done. I look forward to an exciting 2012-2013 season.

[charlz]

i think BC is making the best of whats avail. to him, lets face it other then nash theres no other top tier talent on the market that 1 would come here & 2. makes sense for us.. im liking the direction.. hopefully everything falls into place..if so the future looks brighter already..by the way NoBan.. your negative posts only fuel the sane rational people here to realize that things are looking better already.. LOL BC is doing his job just fine if u ask me..

what part of the last 2 seasons is Just Fine?

He has to do right this summer or hit the road. I have been saying give him time. Well the time is now.

NASH is a recipe for more heartache. 24yr old core with 38 is not a good mix.

[Puffer]

... As for the whole Bosh situation, I have to agree that BC should have traded him, ...

My memory says that Bosh played cute until after the trading deadline. He lead everyone to believe he would seriously consider resigning, even as he was talking with Wade and James.

I could be wrong, but the way he just mailed it in after the trading deadline tells me he was protecting himself from an injury so he could sign with Miami.

[Matt52]

My memory says that Bosh played cute until after the trading deadline. He lead everyone to believe he would seriously consider resigning, even as he was talking with Wade and James.

I could be wrong, but the way he just mailed it in after the trading deadline tells me he was protecting himself from an injury so he could sign with Miami.

I think your memory is very vivid and correct.

The point I made was that Toronto and Cleveland were the teams that suffered the consequences of what happens when you offer a max extension and are turned down. Utah/Denver/League reaped the rewards of the painful Raptor/Cav lesson.

[Puffer]

I think your memory is very vivid and correct.

The point I made was that Toronto and Cleveland were the teams that suffered the consequences of what happens when you offer a max extension and are turned down. Utah/Denver/League reaped the rewards of the painful Raptor/Cav lesson.

I guess you could blame BC for believing in a player who had played true for all the years previously. He should not have trusted, but find it hard to fault him for that. You can't go around thinking everyone is out to f**k you. But maybe if you are a GM you have to.

[Matt52]

I guess you could blame BC for believing in a player who had played true for all the years previously. He should not have trusted, but find it hard to fault him for that. You can't go around thinking everyone is out to f**k you. But maybe if you are a GM you have to.

Oh I agree with you.

It is not his fault the way things played out but it is his fault for the end result. That is his job as a GM.

It is like the rogue trader who loses a couple of billion dollars. At the end of the day, the bank CEO is to blame for his actions because it happened on his watch.

Like I've said, the Raps/Cavs were the pupils for a league-wide lesson in the realities of today's NBA star player - especially if you are a smaller market team. The new CBA has helped a little I think but there are always loopholes as I'm sure will be found.

[Puffer]

..It is not his fault the way things played out but it is his fault for the end result. That is his job as a GM.....

Top guy is responsible. I agree. Doesn't make him a bad GM. :-)

[Nilanka]

I voted option 2. I've been on the fence with Colangelo for a few years. But this season is definitely his last shot. There's no way MLSE extends him if we fail to make the playoffs.

An even earlier dismissal might be in the cards if Colangelo continues to make more risky moves (like overpaying for Fields) and Nash chooses elsewhere. He might be able to recover with a Lin signing (assuming Lin actually plays well), but man...Colangelo reeks of desperation right now.

It's a crazy time in Raptorland...

[Matt52]

Top guy is responsible. I agree. Doesn't make him a bad GM. :-)

Definitely not. Sorry if I implied that.

[enlightenment]

I dont think that any other GM is an improvement. BC is smart and im willing to keep him on board.

[Hotshot]

I was able to calm down and collect myself and think "ok the pick isn't that bad, it is a safe pick and it could turn to something useful after all" with big val coming in and having a shooter like Ross something could still happened and Colangelo will make it all better come free agency then I see this:

Offer sheet to 38 year old Steve Nash 3 year deal $36 Million dollars!!??

Offer sheet to Landry Fields 3 year deal worth $20 million dollars!!!??

So

A) you get a shooter in the draft only to offer another shooter a ridiculous amount of money that he isn't really worth (flashback of Kapono) and you still passed on Drummond?! I mean it doesn't make any sense!!

B) Overpaying Steve Nash so he can lead us into a 40 win team again?! I thought it was about team rebuilding, this is more like team maintaining a status quo of mediocrity in order to fool fans into buying the playoffs hype but nothing really to look forward too beyond that. It becomes clear the its all about selling tickets and jersey's, Toronto is not a winning culture city no longer but entertaining the casual fan on night to night basis.

is BC high?! I am so sick of his macho head games!

I have to correct myself he isn't high but he is a salesman. He is very good at selling the fans, the media and MLSE into believing that what he does will always turn to gold and we are all buying it with his tales of winning in a few years but we all heard it before 6 years ago and we still are waiting.

[Blacklash2k4]

I dont think that any other GM is an improvement. BC is smart and im willing to keep him on board.

Agreed. BC's offseason history as the Raptors' GM is rather impressive in terms of free agency. They just didn't work up the way people had hoped for. His Raptors offseason history included Jermaine O'Neal (six time All-Star), Hedo Turkoglu (Help lead the Magic to the 2008-2009 NBA Finals against the Lakers), and Tyson Chandler (While the trade didn't go through, it would have been huge. He was easily one of the main reasons why the Mavs won the 2010-2011 NBA Championship). Now this year he's gonna go all out on making this team a playoff team. Nash being the biggest free agent he's going aggressively after. I have to agree with you enlightenment. No GM out there right now is an improvement to BC.

[Lark Benson]

I find it absolutely hilarious that BC has been killed as recently as draft night by a huge number of the posters on this board, but that a couple of questionable and risky signings that raise the team's ceiling to first round playoff exit has everyone's faith in the man restored.

It's no different than everyone's off-season predictions, where blind optimism reigns.

[e2thed]

I say we make fire Colangelo and get Shaq as our GM, big time move, big time results.

[Red and White]

I say we make fire Colangelo and get Shaq as our GM, big time move, big time results.

I am in on this. The team will suck but it will be hilarious.

[Apollo]

what part of the last 2 seasons is Just Fine?

He has to do right this summer or hit the road. I have been saying give him time. Well the time is now.

NASH is a recipe for more heartache. 24yr old core with 38 is not a good mix.

No contract extension and there are two roads to travel:

1. Stick to the plan and pray it's enough to get the extension and keep your job.
2. Sign Steve Nash, use the cap to fill in holes and use trades to round out the team. Sell the board on hugh ticket sales, merchandise and T.V. ratings.

Which scenario offers a much greater chance at landing an extension? It's like no one in the media is even considering the idea that Nash is merely a short term play to save his own ass long term.

[NoBan]

I see no reason why we should fire him. We has done absolutely nothing excruciatingly horrible to absolutely destroy the franchise. BC had a bad situation coming into the franchise while they were building around Bosh. Every single thing that he has down has been rational and had good support for. He has lead us to two franchise playoff in his 6 years. Let me show you why your accusations are completely stupid and unnecessary:

2006-2007 Season: We made playoffs and BC was Executive of the Year.
2007-2008 Season: We also made playoffs, but a better Magic team beat us in the first round
2008-2009 Season: We traded for the six time All-Star in O'Neal which was a blockbuster trade at the time. We just made playoffs so this trade made sense to help push us over the first round. He played decently but eventually got injured which ruined the playoff run. In no way is O'Neal getting injured BC's fault. He had a slight injury history previously, but it was risk that would have paid off handsomely if he could stay healthy. It's NBA basketball. Players will get injured. If O'Neal could have stayed healthy, we could have made playoffs for the 3rd straight time.
2009-2010 Season: We drafted Demar Derozan and we got Turk which was really good idea at the time. The Magic had just come out of the NBA Finals last season and Turk was one of their best players, so this was a major signing. He was also signed to entice Bosh to say with Toronto, so we had to overpay him a bit. Like we have learned by now, he was to overpay FAs to get them to come. There was no way to predict that he would be shit and slack off the way he did. Due to Turk's true nature of laziness, we couldn't make playoffs for the second straight year. Again, the signing of Turk was not BC's fault since he was the main reasons why the Magic even made it to the NBA Finals. If Turk had worked out and played the way he did with the Magic, we could have easily made it far in the playoffs.
2010-2011 Season: Bosh leaves for Miami and we tanked the season without him. He tried to get Tyson Chandler (who was one of the best player on the 2010-2011 NBA Champion Mavs Team) but MJ cock-blocked us and canceled the deal. The fact that the deal didn't go through was not BC's fault. Tyson Chandler would have help us with our mediocre defense and we wouldn't have tanked as hard as we did. This was the tanking season, so there was nothing BC could have done better in this season to help us get to the playoffs.
2011-2012 Season: We drafted Jonas Valanciunas who is one of the most anticipated Raptors player in the 2012-2013 season. BC also hired our new defensive head coach in Dwayne Casey (the assistant coach who was said to be the reason why the Mavs won the championship in the 2010-2011 season) who helped us develop a defensive mentality in a horrible defensive team. This was also a tanking season to help rebuild this broken franchise. Again, there was nothing BC could have done to make us a playoff team.
2012-2013 Season (Hasn't happened yet): We drafted Terrance Ross, while controversial and unexpected, was the right and safe pick for the future since he provides offense (which we sorely need) as well as defense. BC is chasing aggressively to get Nash. While Nash is 38 years old, he is still one of the best PG to ever play this game. He will give this franchise the recognition and credibility that it has lost the past 4 season. He will also help out with the offense (which again, we sorely need) and help develop our young core which he has done in the past with Phoenix. BC made an offer to Fields. Fields is a solid player who never got a chance to develop properly because of Carmelo. Remember than Fields is only going into his third year. He plays solid defense while proving good 3 point shooting (which is another thing we sorely need). He offered him a back-loaded contract which means he only gets $5 million for the first two years and $10 million the third year. We can trade him in the third year as an RFA with an expiring contract of $10 million. BC is still not done with the free agency, so there is no point evaluating his performance this year until he has completely shown us what he is planning.

So I think I made my point! Out of the season I just stated, he has done absolutely nothing wrong to destroy the franchise. Every single thing he has done for the Raptors have been well thought out and made logical sense. If anything, it was pure bad luck (O'Neal getting injured), bad coaching (Jay Triano not coaching Turk well enough to discipline him), and Bosh leaving us for the Heat that explains why we are this bad for the past 4 season. BC hasn't done a single thing seriously wrong that warrants an immediate firing. Your accusation and everyone else's accusation of firing BC is just a need to place the blame on someone else to explain the failings of the Raptors. In other words, you only blame him because you're mad that we have sucked for the past 4 years, so you have to find someone to put the blame on. Frankly, it's only human nature to find someone to blame, but you clearly haven't even thought this thing out.

I appreciate your post (good effort, good job.. jk), but it reads like a list of excuses.

08-09's underachievement was not BC's fault because JO got hurt. I completely disagree. While injuries are part of the game, the JO move was ill-advised from the start. He was an aging, injury-prone, overpaid, former all star. While I'm not sure what else we could have got for TJ Ford, was a high risk-medium reward move at best. Oh, and this trade cost us a legit young big-man that we could have paired with Bosh. And was this the year we spent our MLE on Kapono? That was left out of the history lesson.

09-10 was not BC's fault because Turk was lazy. Again, totally disagree. We cannot excuse-away the worst FA signing since Rashard Lewis. First off, BC is at fault for signing a lazy player.. he is. There were plenty of reports of laissez faire approach (eating pizza before finals games, anyone?). It is BC's fault for presiding over an organization that could allow Turk's laziness to not only occur, but allow it to take over the identity of the entire team. Another high risk, medium reward move that backfired and then some. Oh and we drafted a guy that has gone on to become a top 30 SG.

10-11 was not BC's fault because Bosh left. Disagree. It was BC's fault we couldn't retain Bosh or get any worthwhile compensation for him. It had been widely report since 2008 that Bosh was leaving. Sure, he played coy until the deadline, but this lack of foresight and vision on the part of our team's leadership is 100% unforgivable.

10-11 was also not BC's fault because MJ blocked the Tyson Chandler deal. Sorry, but I am going to actually yell this counter-point: IF THE OTHER TEAMS DECISION MAKERS BLOCK A TRADE, YOUR GM DOES NOT GET ANY CREDIT FOR MAKING A GOOD TRADE! It does in no way exhortate anything that happens the forthcoming season. The BObcats didn't let us fleece them. Not a win for BC. In fact, it's a loss because his trade got leaked to the media before the other team signed off on it.

11-12 I actually agree with your assessments here. I like the DC move, and JV has everyone excited (even non-Raps media).

12-13 is here. We shunned a Klye Lowry deal to save space for a 38 year old... Let's not kid ourselves; Nash is likely to decline in play, he has chronic back issues, and it will be very surprising to get 80 games at 25+ minutes out of him. Fields, the other guy we must have been saving space for, may or may not be a rotation player at the NBA level. That's $18 million a year for 3 years of Fields/Old Nash. Whoa. Getting Nash inherently changes to identity of the team. Although Nash may instill some professionalism/accountability on the team, we spent the entire year last season painstakenly carving and new, defensively-focused identity. The Nash move flies in the face of the single-best thing DC brought to the team last season. Although the experts pegged Ross as a reach, he does seem like he'll be a rotation player in the league (albeit at the same position and Fields and DeRo).



My overall response to your history is this: Somebody has to be accountable for these failures, and it's Colangelo. Normally I am a proponent of stability in leadership, be this is continues to take us off course. He deserves no excuses. His moves have directly led to 4 straight lotteries and now the coming identity crisis as we try to keep up the defensive accountability while adding Nash. The man cannot be trusted any longer.