View Poll Results: (When) Should the Raps fire BC?

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  • Immediately

    4 7.69%
  • If we lose out on Nash and finish in the lotto next year

    11 21.15%
  • I still trust him, don't foresee a firing.

    37 71.15%
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Thread: Disgruntled Fans 2012: Extended stinkfest? (#296)

  1. #341
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    Except for Alabi, the 5 players you mentioned are very serviceable, and IMO, fits the Raps system and the team objectives. Of course if it means getting a superstar by trading these players is possible then of course do it, but to write them off coz theyre not "all-star" material is IMO a bit unreasonable.
    I agree. Why do they give Bargs 7 years to get his SHHH together and then dump Bayless ( and possibly JJ, Davis, DeRozen) so quickly?

    Bayless reminds me so much of Billups - it will really hurt if he realizes his potential. They did not have to give him a big role but to loose him for nothing????

    Oh yeah I forgot it is MLSE they are all about bottom line. So to amnesty calderon and keep Bayless that would mean they would be paying for both players...
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  2. #342
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote TheGloveinRapsUniform wrote: View Post
    To include JV, Ross and Acy in the equation and say adding them is a significant improvement from last year's team is still a bit premature, IMO. We have not seen these three play in an actual NBA so we cant really say how their play will affect the standings for the Raptors.
    Thats just it!

    I remember when Colangelo paraded Alabi and Davis up as being the solution to the defense rebounding and rugged interior presence.

    so we keep getting the bait and switch.... oh no it wasn't those guys who are the answer .... it's THESE GUYS... and on we go back to ground ZERO with 2 pieces who are unknown quantities.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  3. #343
    Raptors Republic Rookie knowledgep's Avatar
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    You realize Iguodala is 28 years old... it's not like he's on the decline or anything. I believe a move would actually help him and increase his production. Picking him up for the next 2 years is a great move and will benefit the team. He's the prototypical SF we've been searching for the past decade.

    I have no issues giving up either Ed/DD plus JJ, Calderon in a package deal. I would prefer to keep DD but I feel Philly wouldn't accept the trade without him.

    I just hope BC doesn't go overboard giving up ALL our young assets in a rumoured deal.

  4. #344
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    I agree. Why do they give Bargs 7 years to get his SHHH together and then dump Bayless ( and possibly JJ, Davis, DeRozen) so quickly?

    Bayless reminds me so much of Billups - it will really hurt if he realizes his potential. They did not have to give him a big role but to loose him for nothing????

    Oh yeah I forgot it is MLSE they are all about bottom line. So to amnesty calderon and keep Bayless that would mean they would be paying for both players...
    Bayless was certainly not at the same level Billups was at, even when he was in Toronto. I remember him being much more of a pass-first PG than Bayless has ever shown and he wasn't nearly as out of control as Bayless was half the time. Bayless simploy wasn't worth his QO, especially once Lowry was acquired.

    As for DD/JJ/Davis, I don't think anybody has suggested dumping them. The only suggestions I've read is to attempt to turn them (3 decent, inconsistent role players who still have 'potential' - which may or may not ever blossom) into a proven all-star type of player. I wouldn't consider that giving up on them, nor would it be a trade that would be easy to make, even when a proven veteran player is coming back in return.

    I don't understand how trading a player suddenly equates to "dumping" him or "giving up on" him or some other emotional break-up type of let down. It's a sport, it's a business and the decisions (whether easy or hard) are not made with emotions, but rather logic and rationale. Yes the 3 players you mentioned are good and have legitimate potential. However, if they could be turned into a legit all-star caliber player, when the roster is deep enough to survive losing them (benefit of all that depth we keep talking about), then I don't get the downside?

  5. #345
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    No worries. I do agree that at odd times some threads are merged very quickly, but I think some things started as threads, can be brought up in others. This is a discussion specifically that has been discussed over and over again, and it just becomes annoying to see the same topics come up on an island frequently.

    Now to the topic.
    I have optimism towards BC's plan, I'm quite excited with the addition of Lowry, because he automatically becomes a better upgrade at the point guard, and possibly our best player, (second, behind a healthy 13 game Bargnani ;P).

    I think patience is required, the off-season just started OFFICIALLY 2 days ago, and we are already looking for the roster to be locked up, JJ is still on the team, we have an upgrade of Lowry over Calderon, and Derozan's experience with USA should be a lock for him on this team.

    Gonna take the cliche quote someone said in another thread (I think it was Ceez) Rome wasn't built in a day. Trading younger, higher potential players for proven studs like Iguodala is a 50/50 opinion for everyone. But saying the team sucks if we trade our players who haven't fully proven they CAN be good, is thrown too high. If you think about, we let Bayless and Forbes go to open the opportunity for Lowry to be in the fold.
    +1

  6. #346
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Bayless was certainly not at the same level Billups was at, even when he was in Toronto. I remember him being much more of a pass-first PG than Bayless has ever shown and he wasn't nearly as out of control as Bayless was half the time. Bayless simploy wasn't worth his QO, especially once Lowry was acquired.

    As for DD/JJ/Davis, I don't think anybody has suggested dumping them. The only suggestions I've read is to attempt to turn them (3 decent, inconsistent role players who still have 'potential' - which may or may not ever blossom) into a proven all-star type of player. I wouldn't consider that giving up on them, nor would it be a trade that would be easy to make, even when a proven veteran player is coming back in return.

    I don't understand how trading a player suddenly equates to "dumping" him or "giving up on" him or some other emotional break-up type of let down. It's a sport, it's a business and the decisions (whether easy or hard) are not made with emotions, but rather logic and rationale. Yes the 3 players you mentioned are good and have legitimate potential. However, if they could be turned into a legit all-star caliber player, when the roster is deep enough to survive losing them (benefit of all that depth we keep talking about), then I don't get the downside?
    Billups went through Boston, Toronto, Denver, Mini, in 3 seasons before catching on with Detroit and finding his form.

    showed flashes of brilliance but shot only .349 from the field during run with Raps injuries and circumstance kept him from finding his form.

    When healthy Bayless has scored great marks in Defense, shooting, scoring, attitude. He loves the city.
    He has been a below average play-maker - I will acknowledge that. But I felt like he showed enough promise to warrant at least 1/3 the time Bargs got to develop.

    Bayless cares - he has heart, immature sure but let him work it out. I watch bargs sleep walk his way through 7 seasons of help defense damn it.

    But all they had to do was renew his salary at some point in the season through injuries and what-have-you he would have had another chance to prove himself at PG or SG position.

    To loose him for nothing is stupid.

    Anyhow this thread is not as much about Bayless or Bargs it is about developing young talent equally. BC has force fed us Bargs for all these years and may be on the verge of dumping a lot of young athleticism.

    PS. its obvious by reading certain posters that MLSE has there spin doctors on all the boards to preform character assassination on anyone who begins a legitimate discussion about "THEIR PLAN".

    They never debate the clear facts - all they do is attack the thread starter.

    MLSE you want ticket sales? stop Fcuking up and give us a good product we are growing impatient.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  7. #347
    Raptors Republic Rookie JStockton's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    If they trade DeRozen and Davis for Iggy and quit on JJ Amir

    they will loose:
    - Bayless
    - Derozen
    - Alabi
    - Davis
    - J Johnson
    - A Johnson (All in early 20's... so much for youngunz + weems)

    It's Jemain O'neil for Hibbert again... in 3-4 years Iggy/Deng will be done and Kyle may end up being a top lottery pick for Rockets. I like Lowry but lets hope he stays healthy, and not too much like his best buddy Alvin williams who played so hard his body broke down for good.

    Sure they got two lottery picks and added Kyle L (26) and Fields - maybe?? (24) but at the end of the Day if you can't keep players in their prime 25-32 sort of age you will be in the endless cycle of lottery.

    We have seen so many other teams build themselves since the Raps have fallen out of the playoffs. Orlando, Pacers, thunder etc.. and BC to save his job is going for broke in order to maybe land 5th or 6th seed in the next year or two.... That is why I am not in favor of Trading Davis or Derozen. Unless there is some comparable youth coming back.

    I am not in favor of throwing in the towel on the best defensive player on the team JJ.

    I know I will get flamed for this post but it is how I feel.
    Sorry, I'm a little bit confused. Do the Raptors have a player named DeRozen???

  8. #348
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Quote JStockton wrote: View Post
    Sorry, I'm a little bit confused. Do the Raptors have a player named DeRozen???
    Good contribution

  9. #349
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    All your threads have the same theme so... You know... Why not use the same thread?

    Besides, a 60 page "The Raptors will suck 4 life" thread would look a lot more powerful than these repeat little 5 pagers.

    I admire the dedication though. If I was this pessimistic I would be watching darts or curling or spelling bee competitions before hoops.
    This about sums up anything I could contribute.

    The only thing I would add is:

    1) There is no set way to build a team.

    2) JO comparison to AI is ridiculous and ignorant of both player's history.

  10. #350
    Raptors Republic Starter GameBreaker's Avatar
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    Quote Stahmenah_Vybz wrote: View Post
    Wow. let the season play out. That's not being a true fan declaring the team as going to "Suck". I believe that with a full training camp, Casey will do what he has to do to make the guys work as a team. Have FAITH!
    Get used to it, bro. It's why we have some of the shittiest "fans" in the NBA. We love to trade, fire and diss our franchise but still call ourselves 'fans'. I'd never wanna play here wit fans like that. Love you when you win, but hate you if you lose. Conditional fans. Wack sauce, straight up.
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  11. #351
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    Well at least we aren't Houston. I would hate to be a Houston Rockets fan. Gutting their roaster for Howard and company. I just don't get it. Houston practically just wants to trade places with Orlando, giving up everything they have for everything Orlando has.

    Howard clearly wants a change in scenery. And I'm pretty sure he just didn't mean moving away from orlando, but playing with a new set of guys. Seriously!!! WTF is wrong with Houston.

    If Anything, they should've gone after Lopez/Hibbert and let their young guys develop together. Why Asik btw? Imagine a line up with
    Lowry
    Lamb/Martin
    White
    Jones/Scola
    Hibbert or Lopez

    Of topic but oh well. Didn't know where else to vent.

  12. #352
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    While I like the idea of Iggy - to put an exciting/competitive team on the floor for the next couple of years - we really have to realize that the Raptors (and most teams') playoff "windows" will begin in about 4-5 years.

    Presumably this is when the current superteams (Heat, etc) will be on the decline, and the up and coming super teams (Thunder) will begin having issues paying everyone.

    Either the Raptors brain trust thinks this way (what assets to get rid of now to better position the team in 4-5 years ... Bargs/Jose/DD?), or they are driven more by turning a profit - as in *theory* you should be either trying to win the championship now, or rebuilding to try to win the championship in the future.

    Getting any one of the star wings being discussed - Gay/Iggy/Deng/Granger - will not get us even close to the championship now, or in 5 years. Maybe at best a 2nd round exit. So what exactly is the point?

    Unless you get incredibly lucky in the draft, or you are a great FA desitnation, a proper rebuild could take up to 10 years.

  13. #353
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    Quote DaveKim wrote: View Post
    Well at least we aren't Houston. I would hate to be a Houston Rockets fan. Gutting their roaster for Howard and company. I just don't get it. Houston practically just wants to trade places with Orlando, giving up everything they have for everything Orlando has.

    Howard clearly wants a change in scenery. And I'm pretty sure he just didn't mean moving away from orlando, but playing with a new set of guys. Seriously!!! WTF is wrong with Houston.

    If Anything, they should've gone after Lopez/Hibbert and let their young guys develop together. Why Asik btw? Imagine a line up with
    Lowry
    Lamb/Martin
    White
    Jones/Scola
    Hibbert or Lopez

    Of topic but oh well. Didn't know where else to vent.
    lowry and scola have a problem with mccale. They've made confusing moves too, but at least their fans have hope of a competitive season next year (for now)

  14. #354
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    No worries. I do agree that at odd times some threads are merged very quickly, but I think some things started as threads, can be brought up in others. This is a discussion specifically that has been discussed over and over again, and it just becomes annoying to see the same topics come up on an island frequently.

    Now to the topic.
    I have optimism towards BC's plan, I'm quite excited with the addition of Lowry, because he automatically becomes a better upgrade at the point guard, and possibly our best player, (second, behind a healthy 13 game Bargnani ;P).

    I think patience is required, the off-season just started OFFICIALLY 2 days ago, and we are already looking for the roster to be locked up, JJ is still on the team, we have an upgrade of Lowry over Calderon, and Derozan's experience with USA should be a lock for him on this team.

    Gonna take the cliche quote someone said in another thread (I think it was Ceez) Rome wasn't built in a day. Trading younger, higher potential players for proven studs like Iguodala is a 50/50 opinion for everyone. But saying the team sucks if we trade our players who haven't fully proven they CAN be good, is thrown too high. If you think about, we let Bayless and Forbes go to open the opportunity for Lowry to be in the fold.
    I want to preface this by saying that I really like the Lowry deal, but if he's your best player (or even "possibly" your best player).... that's not a good thing.

  15. #355
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote GameBreaker wrote: View Post
    Get used to it, bro. It's why we have some of the shittiest "fans" in the NBA. We love to trade, fire and diss our franchise but still call ourselves 'fans'. I'd never wanna play here wit fans like that. Love you when you win, but hate you if you lose. Conditional fans. Wack sauce, straight up.
    You just described every team's fan base.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  16. #356
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I want to preface this by saying that I really like the Lowry deal, but if he's your best player (or even "possibly" your best player).... that's not a good thing.
    Who thinks that Lowry is our best player?

  17. #357
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    The reason Bayless has bounced around - Memphis will be his fourth team in five seasons - is because he is overconfident to a fault. Someone pointed out earlier that the reason he was traded from New Orleans was because he had to play behind Chris Paul. That isn't true. The reason he was traded from New Orleans was because he had to play behind Chris Paul and he wasn't willing to do so quietly. That's a glimpse into the mindset of Bayless; He didn't feel he should be backing up Chris Paul when he was 21 years old. He wore out his welcome in Portland as well. Teams don't just pass around lottery picks with his type of raw scoring ability on rookie scale deals because they're bored.

    The chip on his shoulder, which is actually an asset for him when he has it under control, is also his worst enemy. Maybe he figures it out down the road and has a solid career in the league. Maybe he's just one of those guys that seems to float around and never quite get it. But I don't think his ceiling is any higher than an off the bench gunner, and that's not a player that you should worry for long about losing. Let someone else take the risk.

    The exit of Solomon Alabi should be celebrated! He was absolutely terrible. He couldn't get on the floor for one of the worst teams in the league the past two seasons, and yet he's still viewed in some circles as this mysterious secret weapon that the Raptors just refused to use. I don't think they'd be trotting out the corpse of Jamal Magloire if they had a young centre that needed development waiting in the wings unless they weren't completely convinced that he was going to get killed out there. This is a good thing, trust me.

    James Johnson is talented but frustratingly inconsistent. He had issues with Dwayne Casey last season, to what extent and where their current relationship stands is unknown. The arrival of Landry Fields, even if you don't agree with that signing, has made JJ much more expendable. He was also one of the two or three worst starting small forwards in pro basketball last season. Add those things together and I think it makes sense to move him if you're able to get value back.

    I like Amir Johnson a lot. He always plays hard/hurt no matter what role he's assigned and does a lot of good things on the court when he's got it going. He's far from untouchable however. Similar to James Johnson, if you're able to get good value back for him then it should be seriously considered.

    DeRozan has a lot of good things (still very young, great athlete, high character, embraced the city) and bad things (poor defender despite physical tools, can't shoot and he plays shooting guard) going for him, but the overall feeling I've gotten from watching him develop over the last three years is that he's just not going to turn into that franchise cornerstone that everyone hoped. I'd be shocked if he makes one all star game during his career. I feel like I'm repeating myself in this long winded mess but once again, that's not the type of player that you should be apprehensive about moving if the right deal comes along.

    The Raptors are in a place where any major free agent signings are basically a pipe dream at this point. They're also hopefully moving out of the high lottery slots over the next few seasons, lessening the chances of them landing an elite player at the draft. That leaves trades as the only viable way to improve the Raptors and if you want to get something valuable from another team, they are going to want something valuable in return.
    Last edited by Fully; Sat Jul 14th, 2012 at 09:38 AM.

  18. #358
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    Who thinks that Lowry is our best player?
    The poster I quoted in the original.
    Last edited by Fully; Sat Jul 14th, 2012 at 09:02 AM.

  19. #359
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    I think that the future direction and quality of the Raptors' franchise will be determined by the ultimate ceiling of JV. If he becomes an all-star center, then the team's future will be in good hands. If he is just a servicable center, then I don't see any other pieces on the Raptors now that are likely to lift them to the higher echelon in the league.

  20. #360
    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I want to preface this by saying that I really like the Lowry deal, but if he's your best player (or even "possibly" your best player).... that's not a good thing.
    Kyle Lowry was the best player on Houston last season, and they were 9th, 2 wins away from a playoff spot. The Rockets have old big men, and aren't great contributors other than Luis Scola, who in my eye is not as good as Andrea Bargnani. Kevin MArtin was extremely effective for them last season, but he wasn't the man like Lowry who could take over games.

    Remember our game in Houston this past season? No one hurt us more than Lowry, Calderon and Forbes just couldn't contain him, and he really did a nice job of stunning the contributions of Forbes and Calderon.

    You might think it's a stretch calling Lowry our best player, but remember, it wasn't too long during his really good run, he was considered to be a top 10 PG.

    http://www.thesportsfanjournal.com/c...ds-in-the-nba/

    9. Kyle Lowry, Houston Rockets
    Per Tinsley, coining somebody “underrated” has actually become “overrated” in recent years, but if any player in the league fits this bill, it’s Houston’s floor general. The only reason you don’t know about the guy is because Houston plays no nationally-televised games.
    Plus, the fact that Lowry is capable of getting a triple-double almost every night (averaging 18/8/5) has to get you on the top ten PGs list.
    Capable of getting a triple-double every night, who else in the league does that? Not very many, Lebron, Rondo, Iguodala hit my mind, but that's basically it.
    Last edited by ReubenJRD; Sat Jul 14th, 2012 at 02:24 PM.

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