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Disgruntled Fans 2012: Extended stinkfest? (#296)

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  • I find it absolutely hilarious that BC has been killed as recently as draft night by a huge number of the posters on this board, but that a couple of questionable and risky signings that raise the team's ceiling to first round playoff exit has everyone's faith in the man restored.

    It's no different than everyone's off-season predictions, where blind optimism reigns.

    Comment


    • I say we make fire Colangelo and get Shaq as our GM, big time move, big time results.
      NBADoppelgangers.tumblr.com

      Comment


      • e2thed wrote: View Post
        I say we make fire Colangelo and get Shaq as our GM, big time move, big time results.
        I am in on this. The team will suck but it will be hilarious.

        Comment


        • charlz wrote: View Post
          what part of the last 2 seasons is Just Fine?

          He has to do right this summer or hit the road. I have been saying give him time. Well the time is now.

          NASH is a recipe for more heartache. 24yr old core with 38 is not a good mix.
          No contract extension and there are two roads to travel:
          1. Stick to the plan and pray it's enough to get the extension and keep your job.
          2. Sign Steve Nash, use the cap to fill in holes and use trades to round out the team. Sell the board on hugh ticket sales, merchandise and T.V. ratings.
          Which scenario offers a much greater chance at landing an extension? It's like no one in the media is even considering the idea that Nash is merely a short term play to save his own ass long term.

          Comment


          • Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
            I see no reason why we should fire him. We has done absolutely nothing excruciatingly horrible to absolutely destroy the franchise. BC had a bad situation coming into the franchise while they were building around Bosh. Every single thing that he has down has been rational and had good support for. He has lead us to two franchise playoff in his 6 years. Let me show you why your accusations are completely stupid and unnecessary:

            2006-2007 Season: We made playoffs and BC was Executive of the Year.
            2007-2008 Season: We also made playoffs, but a better Magic team beat us in the first round
            2008-2009 Season: We traded for the six time All-Star in O'Neal which was a blockbuster trade at the time. We just made playoffs so this trade made sense to help push us over the first round. He played decently but eventually got injured which ruined the playoff run. In no way is O'Neal getting injured BC's fault. He had a slight injury history previously, but it was risk that would have paid off handsomely if he could stay healthy. It's NBA basketball. Players will get injured. If O'Neal could have stayed healthy, we could have made playoffs for the 3rd straight time.
            2009-2010 Season: We drafted Demar Derozan and we got Turk which was really good idea at the time. The Magic had just come out of the NBA Finals last season and Turk was one of their best players, so this was a major signing. He was also signed to entice Bosh to say with Toronto, so we had to overpay him a bit. Like we have learned by now, he was to overpay FAs to get them to come. There was no way to predict that he would be shit and slack off the way he did. Due to Turk's true nature of laziness, we couldn't make playoffs for the second straight year. Again, the signing of Turk was not BC's fault since he was the main reasons why the Magic even made it to the NBA Finals. If Turk had worked out and played the way he did with the Magic, we could have easily made it far in the playoffs.
            2010-2011 Season: Bosh leaves for Miami and we tanked the season without him. He tried to get Tyson Chandler (who was one of the best player on the 2010-2011 NBA Champion Mavs Team) but MJ cock-blocked us and canceled the deal. The fact that the deal didn't go through was not BC's fault. Tyson Chandler would have help us with our mediocre defense and we wouldn't have tanked as hard as we did. This was the tanking season, so there was nothing BC could have done better in this season to help us get to the playoffs.
            2011-2012 Season: We drafted Jonas Valanciunas who is one of the most anticipated Raptors player in the 2012-2013 season. BC also hired our new defensive head coach in Dwayne Casey (the assistant coach who was said to be the reason why the Mavs won the championship in the 2010-2011 season) who helped us develop a defensive mentality in a horrible defensive team. This was also a tanking season to help rebuild this broken franchise. Again, there was nothing BC could have done to make us a playoff team.
            2012-2013 Season (Hasn't happened yet): We drafted Terrance Ross, while controversial and unexpected, was the right and safe pick for the future since he provides offense (which we sorely need) as well as defense. BC is chasing aggressively to get Nash. While Nash is 38 years old, he is still one of the best PG to ever play this game. He will give this franchise the recognition and credibility that it has lost the past 4 season. He will also help out with the offense (which again, we sorely need) and help develop our young core which he has done in the past with Phoenix. BC made an offer to Fields. Fields is a solid player who never got a chance to develop properly because of Carmelo. Remember than Fields is only going into his third year. He plays solid defense while proving good 3 point shooting (which is another thing we sorely need). He offered him a back-loaded contract which means he only gets $5 million for the first two years and $10 million the third year. We can trade him in the third year as an RFA with an expiring contract of $10 million. BC is still not done with the free agency, so there is no point evaluating his performance this year until he has completely shown us what he is planning.

            So I think I made my point! Out of the season I just stated, he has done absolutely nothing wrong to destroy the franchise. Every single thing he has done for the Raptors have been well thought out and made logical sense. If anything, it was pure bad luck (O'Neal getting injured), bad coaching (Jay Triano not coaching Turk well enough to discipline him), and Bosh leaving us for the Heat that explains why we are this bad for the past 4 season. BC hasn't done a single thing seriously wrong that warrants an immediate firing. Your accusation and everyone else's accusation of firing BC is just a need to place the blame on someone else to explain the failings of the Raptors. In other words, you only blame him because you're mad that we have sucked for the past 4 years, so you have to find someone to put the blame on. Frankly, it's only human nature to find someone to blame, but you clearly haven't even thought this thing out.
            I appreciate your post (good effort, good job.. jk), but it reads like a list of excuses.

            08-09's underachievement was not BC's fault because JO got hurt. I completely disagree. While injuries are part of the game, the JO move was ill-advised from the start. He was an aging, injury-prone, overpaid, former all star. While I'm not sure what else we could have got for TJ Ford, was a high risk-medium reward move at best. Oh, and this trade cost us a legit young big-man that we could have paired with Bosh. And was this the year we spent our MLE on Kapono? That was left out of the history lesson.

            09-10 was not BC's fault because Turk was lazy. Again, totally disagree. We cannot excuse-away the worst FA signing since Rashard Lewis. First off, BC is at fault for signing a lazy player.. he is. There were plenty of reports of laissez faire approach (eating pizza before finals games, anyone?). It is BC's fault for presiding over an organization that could allow Turk's laziness to not only occur, but allow it to take over the identity of the entire team. Another high risk, medium reward move that backfired and then some. Oh and we drafted a guy that has gone on to become a top 30 SG.

            10-11 was not BC's fault because Bosh left. Disagree. It was BC's fault we couldn't retain Bosh or get any worthwhile compensation for him. It had been widely report since 2008 that Bosh was leaving. Sure, he played coy until the deadline, but this lack of foresight and vision on the part of our team's leadership is 100% unforgivable.

            10-11 was also not BC's fault because MJ blocked the Tyson Chandler deal. Sorry, but I am going to actually yell this counter-point: IF THE OTHER TEAMS DECISION MAKERS BLOCK A TRADE, YOUR GM DOES NOT GET ANY CREDIT FOR MAKING A GOOD TRADE! It does in no way exhortate anything that happens the forthcoming season. The BObcats didn't let us fleece them. Not a win for BC. In fact, it's a loss because his trade got leaked to the media before the other team signed off on it.

            11-12 I actually agree with your assessments here. I like the DC move, and JV has everyone excited (even non-Raps media).

            12-13 is here. We shunned a Klye Lowry deal to save space for a 38 year old... Let's not kid ourselves; Nash is likely to decline in play, he has chronic back issues, and it will be very surprising to get 80 games at 25+ minutes out of him. Fields, the other guy we must have been saving space for, may or may not be a rotation player at the NBA level. That's $18 million a year for 3 years of Fields/Old Nash. Whoa. Getting Nash inherently changes to identity of the team. Although Nash may instill some professionalism/accountability on the team, we spent the entire year last season painstakenly carving and new, defensively-focused identity. The Nash move flies in the face of the single-best thing DC brought to the team last season. Although the experts pegged Ross as a reach, he does seem like he'll be a rotation player in the league (albeit at the same position and Fields and DeRo).



            My overall response to your history is this: Somebody has to be accountable for these failures, and it's Colangelo. Normally I am a proponent of stability in leadership, be this is continues to take us off course. He deserves no excuses. His moves have directly led to 4 straight lotteries and now the coming identity crisis as we try to keep up the defensive accountability while adding Nash. The man cannot be trusted any longer.
            Last edited by NoBan; Tue Jul 3, 2012, 10:42 PM.

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            • NoBan wrote: View Post
              My overall response to your history is this: Somebody has to be accountable for these failures, and it's Colangelo. Normally I am a proponent of stability in leadership, be this is continues to take us off course. He deserves no excuses. His moves have directly led to 4 straight lotteries and now the coming identity crisis as we try to keep up the defensive accountability while adding Nash. The man cannot be trusted any longer.
              Yeah no kidding, its funny how many chances Colangelo gets and each time its "oh well its wasn't really his fault that this hasn't worked out, its always outside circumstances beyond his control"

              Its been 6 years of promises with little to show for.

              Although as long as MLSE is in charge, I don't expect greatness from them either.

              Comment


              • NoBan wrote: View Post
                I appreciate your post (good effort, good job.. jk), but it reads like a list of excuses.

                08-09's underachievement was not BC's fault because JO got hurt. I completely disagree. While injuries are part of the game, the JO move was ill-advised from the start. He was an aging, injury-prone, overpaid, former all star. While I'm not sure what else we could have got for TJ Ford, was a high risk-medium reward move at best. Oh, and this trade cost us a legit young big-man that we could have paired with Bosh. And was this the year we spent our MLE on Kapono? That was left out of the history lesson.

                09-10 was not BC's fault because Turk was lazy. Again, totally disagree. We cannot excuse-away the worst FA signing since Rashard Lewis. First off, BC is at fault for signing a lazy player.. he is. There were plenty of reports of laissez faire approach (eating pizza before finals games, anyone?). It is BC's fault for presiding over an organization that could allow Turk's laziness to not only occur, but allow it to take over the identity of the entire team. Another high risk, medium reward move that backfired and then some. Oh and we drafted a guy that has gone on to become a top 30 SG.

                10-11 was not BC's fault because Bosh left. Disagree. It was BC's fault we couldn't retain Bosh or get any worthwhile compensation for him. It had been widely report since 2008 that Bosh was leaving. Sure, he played coy until the deadline, but this lack of foresight and vision on the part of our team's leadership is 100% unforgivable.

                10-11 was also not BC's fault because MJ blocked the Tyson Chandler deal. Sorry, but I am going to actually yell this counter-point: IF THE OTHER TEAMS DECISION MAKERS BLOCK A TRADE, YOUR GM DOES NOT GET ANY CREDIT FOR MAKING A GOOD TRADE! It does in no way exhortate anything that happens the forthcoming season. The BObcats didn't let us fleece them. Not a win for BC. In fact, it's a loss because his trade got leaked to the media before the other team signed off on it.

                11-12 I actually agree with your assessments here. I like the DC move, and JV has everyone excited (even non-Raps media).

                12-13 is here. We shunned a Klye Lowry deal to save space for a 38 year old... Let's not kid ourselves; Nash is likely to decline in play, he has chronic back issues, and it will be very surprising to get 80 games at 25+ minutes out of him. Fields, the other guy we must have been saving space for, may or may not be a rotation player at the NBA level. That's $18 million a year for 3 years of Fields/Old Nash. Whoa. Getting Nash inherently changes to identity of the team. Although Nash may instill some professionalism/accountability on the team, we spent the entire year last season painstakenly carving and new, defensively-focused identity. The Nash move flies in the face of the single-best thing DC brought to the team last season. Although the experts pegged Ross as a reach, he does seem like he'll be a rotation player in the league (albeit at the same position and Fields and DeRo).



                My overall response to your history is this: Somebody has to be accountable for these failures, and it's Colangelo. Normally I am a proponent of stability in leadership, be this is continues to take us off course. He deserves no excuses. His moves have directly led to 4 straight lotteries and now the coming identity crisis as we try to keep up the defensive accountability while adding Nash. The man cannot be trusted any longer.
                Sigh, I'm seriously tired of this....

                1. There was NO WAY of knowing that Turk was gonna be lazy. He played his ass off on the Magic and lead them to the NBA Finals. He had a winners mentality coming into Toronto. As for his lazy attitude, that's NOT BC's job! That's the head coach's job to get his man focused, working out and ready to play every night. Thus, why Triano is no longer the head coach of the Toronto Raptors. BC did his job by shipping his lazy ass to Phoenix for Barbosa. As for your ridiculous statement statement that Demar is only in the top 30 SG in the NBA, you're just stupid for a couple reason. Firstly, saying that someone is in the top 30 SG in the NBA isn't saying much. Technically, Wade and Kobe are in the top 30 SG in the NBA. Secondly, which shooting guard would you want from that draft that we could have gotten after that? Terrence Williams? Gerald Henderson? BC had to reason to draft a PG since Calderon was still doing well for himself in 2009. No reason to draft a SF since BC planned to trade for Hedo. No reason to draft a PF because of Bosh. No reason to draft a center because of Bargnani. So BC would logically draft a SG to make an attempt as the playoffs and Demar was the best SG available at the time. So is drafting Demar a bad idea? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
                2. Bosh should have been traded, yes! But as Puffer said previously, "Bosh played cute until after the trading deadline. He lead everyone to believe he would seriously consider resigning, even as he was talking with Wade and James." Bosh played BC perfectly and one could say that its fault, but there was nothing we could have done. Even if we traded Bosh somewhere else for some players, there was still no way that we would have made the playoffs in 2010-2011. Thus, by your logic in your original post, you would still blame BC since we didn't make the playoffs once again.
                3. BC made a good trade attempt that didn't work out due to Micheal Jordan's lack of professionalism as the owner of a professional team. That trade attempt shows that he has the right mindset and the skill set to get back on the playoff track which is clearly shown by how Chandler help the Mavs to win the NBA Championship. As for us "fleecing" the Bobcats, you have to be kidding me. The Bobcats sent Chandler and fellow centre Alexis Ajinca to the Dallas Mavericks for centre Erick Dampier, forward Eduardo Najera, shooting guard Matt Carroll. What the hell has Dampier, Najera and Carroll done at that time in their career? Eric Dampier was worthless and was eventually waived. Najera doesn't absolutely nothing as a Bobcat. Carroll is even worse than Najera. Keeping that in mind, let's look at the Toronto trade. The Bobcats would have sent Diaw, and Chandler to Toronto for Calderon. Calderon was and still is one of the best pure point guards in the NBA that make everyone around him look good. During that time, he was in his prime and was averaging 8-9 assists per game along with an average of 10 points. With this in mind along with what I said about the Dallas trade, how the hell can you say that we were trying to fleece the Bobcats? If anything, the Mavs fleeced the Bobcats. Dallas basically dumped their trash to Charlotte for an NBA Championship. As the leakage of the trade, that's not BC's fault. These things will happen since gossip will always spread no matter how hard you try. If trade gossip was that hard to hide, there would be no rumors. It's idiotic to blame BC for the leakage of the trade rumors.

                To be honest, I'm just done with you. I'm sick of every senseless fan that thinks that being a GM is easily as hell. If you're so freaking smart and think that BC is an absolute idiot, why don't you rush down to MLSE main office, show them your credentials as a fan who posts on RR, and replace BC yourself. Being a GM is not an easy job. Mistakes are gonna be made. Your hate for BC is just idiotic since I can think a few current GMs that are easily worse than BC. Fine, let's say we fire BC, who do you want to hire that would actually be an improvement over BC that would actually want to be the GM of the Toronto Raptors?
                Last edited by Blacklash2k4; Wed Jul 4, 2012, 12:43 AM.

                Comment


                • I'm with backlash on this one. Being a GM is NOT EASY, and BC is a top 10 or top 5 GM in the NBA. He is doing his best to put together a good team but there are just too many idiots and morons who aren't willing to play in Toronto because they haven't set foot outside their crap country called the united states. If it wasn't that way and American FA's did sign in Toronto then we would easily be a very good team because BC wouldn't have to overpay for Fa's like he does now. BC is making the right moves and if the Nash signing falls through then we are on our way to becoming a very good team in the future.

                  Comment


                  • "As for your ridiculous statement statement that Demar is only in the top 30 SG in the NBA, you're just stupid for a couple reason"
                    Was only clowning you, bro. And no need for the 200 word tangent on a trade that we didn't successfully pull off.

                    "who do you want to hire that would actually be an improvement over BC that would actually want to be the GM of the Toronto Raptors?"
                    This is a good statement of the losing culture that surrounds this organization. It's time to abort the BC plan, and let "Pound the Rock" permeate though the organization.

                    NoPropsNeeded - Did you really just blame 4 straight losing seasons on "idiot and moron" americans? And then call America crap?

                    Good question: Who (if anybody) should be held accountable for the lost games and losing culture that have occurred here for the past 4 seasons? The people blamed so far in this thread: Bosh, Triano, Turk, JO's injury, the lockout, Michael Jordan, idiot and moronic americans, stupid stupid men and senseless fans that think being a GM is easy as hell. I say more blame should lie with the GM than with all of the above combined.

                    Comment


                    • NoBan wrote: View Post
                      Was only clowning you, bro. And no need for the 200 word tangent on a trade that we didn't successfully pull off.



                      This is a good statement of the losing culture that surrounds this organization. It's time to abort the BC plan, and let "Pound the Rock" permeate though the organization.

                      NoPropsNeeded - Did you really just blame 4 straight losing seasons on "idiot and moron" americans? And then call America crap?

                      Good question: Who (if anybody) should be held accountable for the lost games and losing culture that have occurred here for the past 4 seasons? The people blamed so far in this thread: Bosh, Triano, Turk, JO's injury, the lockout, Michael Jordan, idiot and moronic americans, stupid stupid men and senseless fans that think being a GM is easy as hell. I say more blame should lie with the GM than with all of the above combined.
                      BC is easily one of the top 10 GMs in the NBA who is not scared to pull of big trade attempts at getting big free agents. If you're gonna fire BC, you're gonna regret it. I also love how you haven't answered my question of who would replace BC if we fired him. As the original poster of the firing of BC, you haven't even given a possible GM to replace him. This can only mean that you can't name one GM that would do better than BC. Therefore, your whole argument is invalid. As for me writing a lot, it's cuz I have to get it through your thick ignorant skull. I don't see any harm in the "Pound the Rock" mentality. I feel like it's good indicator that BC and DC are serious about getting rid of the image of the Raptors being a poor defensive team and I'm pretty sure that's what every Raptors fan has wanted for the past 3-4 years. I think NoPropsNeeded has a point in the mentality that Toronto is a horrible place to play basketball. I wouldn't call them idiots or morons, but I would definitely call them ignorant players who are not open-minded and are uneducated about the world outside the US. The Raptors might not be an amazing team right now, but Toronto should be as great of a destination as NY if players would be more open-minded. Toronto is a beautiful city with a multicultural environment, one of the bigger markets in the NBA, and a loyal/strong fan-base (probably excluding you as it's obvious that you don't support the Raptors). I give props to NoPropsNeeded (no pun intended) for including this in the conversation. As for you, you are a senseless and moronic "fan"! You think being a GM is easy because you try to do it yourself in these forums along with everyone else. But there is more to being a GM than what people try to do in these forums. BC isn't perfect and no one expects him to be, but he has done his job as well as he can with what he is given. If you can't understand that, then you are no Raptors fan! Since you have not provided any counter argument to my previous post, I will assume that you have no further logical rebuttal and thus, your argument is again obsolete! Good day to you, good sir!
                      Last edited by Blacklash2k4; Wed Jul 4, 2012, 01:33 AM.

                      Comment


                      • NoBan wrote: View Post
                        This is a good statement of the losing culture that surrounds this organization. It's time to abort the BC plan, and let "Pound the Rock" permeate though the organization.
                        Colangelo hired Dwane Casey (who brought in the Pound the Rock mentality).

                        I agree with Noprops and Backlash.
                        “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

                        -- Charles Barkley

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                        • NoBan wrote: View Post
                          Was only clowning you, bro. And no need for the 200 word tangent on a trade that we didn't successfully pull off.



                          This is a good statement of the losing culture that surrounds this organization. It's time to abort the BC plan, and let "Pound the Rock" permeate though the organization.

                          NoPropsNeeded - Did you really just blame 4 straight losing seasons on "idiot and moron" americans? And then call America crap?

                          Good question: Who (if anybody) should be held accountable for the lost games and losing culture that have occurred here for the past 4 seasons? The people blamed so far in this thread: Bosh, Triano, Turk, JO's injury, the lockout, Michael Jordan, idiot and moronic americans, stupid stupid men and senseless fans that think being a GM is easy as hell. I say more blame should lie with the GM than with all of the above combined.
                          mainly yes. FA are a huge part of building a good team and if you cant get them its very hard to build a contender

                          Comment


                          • NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                            mainly yes. FA are a huge part of building a good team and if you cant get them its very hard to build a contender
                            Thank you! ++1

                            Comment


                            • Toronto has got to be one of the hardest teams to run. Nobody wants to come here. BC is doing just fine with what he's got

                              Comment


                              • Quirk wrote: View Post
                                Rivers ahead of Beal? I guess your methodology is based upon weather maps and 20 sided dice?

                                I like Ross, ut didn't expect him either, but only because I was hoping for Lillard, who only shot up in the last couple of weeks, so I had Lillard-tunnel-vision.

                                I'm so glad we didn't draft Barnes, Rivers or Drummond that Ross will certainly be a favourite player of mine for years to come, since whatever he does or doesn't do, he prevented us from drafting a franchise killer.

                                He seems like a serviceable player too, so that's a bonus.
                                Rivers is an incredible talent and his basketball IQ is unmatched in this entire draft class. I can see Beal being an attractive player, but prior to Duke failing to advance far into the NCAA tournament it was pretty wide open in terms of scouting and how might be the best SG out there. Beal was (and still is) undersized for his position.

                                I don't know how you could possibly tell at this age that a player will be a franchise killer.
                                your pal,
                                ebrian

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