View Poll Results: (When) Should the Raps fire BC?

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  • Immediately

    4 7.69%
  • If we lose out on Nash and finish in the lotto next year

    11 21.15%
  • I still trust him, don't foresee a firing.

    37 71.15%
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Thread: Disgruntled Fans 2012: Extended stinkfest? (#296)

  1. #261
    Raptors Republic All-Star Hotshot's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    My overall response to your history is this: Somebody has to be accountable for these failures, and it's Colangelo. Normally I am a proponent of stability in leadership, be this is continues to take us off course. He deserves no excuses. His moves have directly led to 4 straight lotteries and now the coming identity crisis as we try to keep up the defensive accountability while adding Nash. The man cannot be trusted any longer.
    Yeah no kidding, its funny how many chances Colangelo gets and each time its "oh well its wasn't really his fault that this hasn't worked out, its always outside circumstances beyond his control"

    Its been 6 years of promises with little to show for.

    Although as long as MLSE is in charge, I don't expect greatness from them either.

  2. #262
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    I appreciate your post (good effort, good job.. jk), but it reads like a list of excuses.

    08-09's underachievement was not BC's fault because JO got hurt. I completely disagree. While injuries are part of the game, the JO move was ill-advised from the start. He was an aging, injury-prone, overpaid, former all star. While I'm not sure what else we could have got for TJ Ford, was a high risk-medium reward move at best. Oh, and this trade cost us a legit young big-man that we could have paired with Bosh. And was this the year we spent our MLE on Kapono? That was left out of the history lesson.

    09-10 was not BC's fault because Turk was lazy. Again, totally disagree. We cannot excuse-away the worst FA signing since Rashard Lewis. First off, BC is at fault for signing a lazy player.. he is. There were plenty of reports of laissez faire approach (eating pizza before finals games, anyone?). It is BC's fault for presiding over an organization that could allow Turk's laziness to not only occur, but allow it to take over the identity of the entire team. Another high risk, medium reward move that backfired and then some. Oh and we drafted a guy that has gone on to become a top 30 SG.

    10-11 was not BC's fault because Bosh left. Disagree. It was BC's fault we couldn't retain Bosh or get any worthwhile compensation for him. It had been widely report since 2008 that Bosh was leaving. Sure, he played coy until the deadline, but this lack of foresight and vision on the part of our team's leadership is 100% unforgivable.

    10-11 was also not BC's fault because MJ blocked the Tyson Chandler deal. Sorry, but I am going to actually yell this counter-point: IF THE OTHER TEAMS DECISION MAKERS BLOCK A TRADE, YOUR GM DOES NOT GET ANY CREDIT FOR MAKING A GOOD TRADE! It does in no way exhortate anything that happens the forthcoming season. The BObcats didn't let us fleece them. Not a win for BC. In fact, it's a loss because his trade got leaked to the media before the other team signed off on it.

    11-12 I actually agree with your assessments here. I like the DC move, and JV has everyone excited (even non-Raps media).

    12-13 is here. We shunned a Klye Lowry deal to save space for a 38 year old... Let's not kid ourselves; Nash is likely to decline in play, he has chronic back issues, and it will be very surprising to get 80 games at 25+ minutes out of him. Fields, the other guy we must have been saving space for, may or may not be a rotation player at the NBA level. That's $18 million a year for 3 years of Fields/Old Nash. Whoa. Getting Nash inherently changes to identity of the team. Although Nash may instill some professionalism/accountability on the team, we spent the entire year last season painstakenly carving and new, defensively-focused identity. The Nash move flies in the face of the single-best thing DC brought to the team last season. Although the experts pegged Ross as a reach, he does seem like he'll be a rotation player in the league (albeit at the same position and Fields and DeRo).



    My overall response to your history is this: Somebody has to be accountable for these failures, and it's Colangelo. Normally I am a proponent of stability in leadership, be this is continues to take us off course. He deserves no excuses. His moves have directly led to 4 straight lotteries and now the coming identity crisis as we try to keep up the defensive accountability while adding Nash. The man cannot be trusted any longer.
    Sigh, I'm seriously tired of this....

    1. There was NO WAY of knowing that Turk was gonna be lazy. He played his ass off on the Magic and lead them to the NBA Finals. He had a winners mentality coming into Toronto. As for his lazy attitude, that's NOT BC's job! That's the head coach's job to get his man focused, working out and ready to play every night. Thus, why Triano is no longer the head coach of the Toronto Raptors. BC did his job by shipping his lazy ass to Phoenix for Barbosa. As for your ridiculous statement statement that Demar is only in the top 30 SG in the NBA, you're just stupid for a couple reason. Firstly, saying that someone is in the top 30 SG in the NBA isn't saying much. Technically, Wade and Kobe are in the top 30 SG in the NBA. Secondly, which shooting guard would you want from that draft that we could have gotten after that? Terrence Williams? Gerald Henderson? BC had to reason to draft a PG since Calderon was still doing well for himself in 2009. No reason to draft a SF since BC planned to trade for Hedo. No reason to draft a PF because of Bosh. No reason to draft a center because of Bargnani. So BC would logically draft a SG to make an attempt as the playoffs and Demar was the best SG available at the time. So is drafting Demar a bad idea? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
    2. Bosh should have been traded, yes! But as Puffer said previously, "Bosh played cute until after the trading deadline. He lead everyone to believe he would seriously consider resigning, even as he was talking with Wade and James." Bosh played BC perfectly and one could say that its fault, but there was nothing we could have done. Even if we traded Bosh somewhere else for some players, there was still no way that we would have made the playoffs in 2010-2011. Thus, by your logic in your original post, you would still blame BC since we didn't make the playoffs once again.
    3. BC made a good trade attempt that didn't work out due to Micheal Jordan's lack of professionalism as the owner of a professional team. That trade attempt shows that he has the right mindset and the skill set to get back on the playoff track which is clearly shown by how Chandler help the Mavs to win the NBA Championship. As for us "fleecing" the Bobcats, you have to be kidding me. The Bobcats sent Chandler and fellow centre Alexis Ajinca to the Dallas Mavericks for centre Erick Dampier, forward Eduardo Najera, shooting guard Matt Carroll. What the hell has Dampier, Najera and Carroll done at that time in their career? Eric Dampier was worthless and was eventually waived. Najera doesn't absolutely nothing as a Bobcat. Carroll is even worse than Najera. Keeping that in mind, let's look at the Toronto trade. The Bobcats would have sent Diaw, and Chandler to Toronto for Calderon. Calderon was and still is one of the best pure point guards in the NBA that make everyone around him look good. During that time, he was in his prime and was averaging 8-9 assists per game along with an average of 10 points. With this in mind along with what I said about the Dallas trade, how the hell can you say that we were trying to fleece the Bobcats? If anything, the Mavs fleeced the Bobcats. Dallas basically dumped their trash to Charlotte for an NBA Championship. As the leakage of the trade, that's not BC's fault. These things will happen since gossip will always spread no matter how hard you try. If trade gossip was that hard to hide, there would be no rumors. It's idiotic to blame BC for the leakage of the trade rumors.

    To be honest, I'm just done with you. I'm sick of every senseless fan that thinks that being a GM is easily as hell. If you're so freaking smart and think that BC is an absolute idiot, why don't you rush down to MLSE main office, show them your credentials as a fan who posts on RR, and replace BC yourself. Being a GM is not an easy job. Mistakes are gonna be made. Your hate for BC is just idiotic since I can think a few current GMs that are easily worse than BC. Fine, let's say we fire BC, who do you want to hire that would actually be an improvement over BC that would actually want to be the GM of the Toronto Raptors?
    Last edited by Blacklash2k4; Wed Jul 4th, 2012 at 12:43 AM.

  3. #263
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    I'm with backlash on this one. Being a GM is NOT EASY, and BC is a top 10 or top 5 GM in the NBA. He is doing his best to put together a good team but there are just too many idiots and morons who aren't willing to play in Toronto because they haven't set foot outside their crap country called the united states. If it wasn't that way and American FA's did sign in Toronto then we would easily be a very good team because BC wouldn't have to overpay for Fa's like he does now. BC is making the right moves and if the Nash signing falls through then we are on our way to becoming a very good team in the future.

  4. #264
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    "As for your ridiculous statement statement that Demar is only in the top 30 SG in the NBA, you're just stupid for a couple reason"
    Was only clowning you, bro. And no need for the 200 word tangent on a trade that we didn't successfully pull off.

    "who do you want to hire that would actually be an improvement over BC that would actually want to be the GM of the Toronto Raptors?"
    This is a good statement of the losing culture that surrounds this organization. It's time to abort the BC plan, and let "Pound the Rock" permeate though the organization.

    NoPropsNeeded - Did you really just blame 4 straight losing seasons on "idiot and moron" americans? And then call America crap?

    Good question: Who (if anybody) should be held accountable for the lost games and losing culture that have occurred here for the past 4 seasons? The people blamed so far in this thread: Bosh, Triano, Turk, JO's injury, the lockout, Michael Jordan, idiot and moronic americans, stupid stupid men and senseless fans that think being a GM is easy as hell. I say more blame should lie with the GM than with all of the above combined.

  5. #265
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Was only clowning you, bro. And no need for the 200 word tangent on a trade that we didn't successfully pull off.



    This is a good statement of the losing culture that surrounds this organization. It's time to abort the BC plan, and let "Pound the Rock" permeate though the organization.

    NoPropsNeeded - Did you really just blame 4 straight losing seasons on "idiot and moron" americans? And then call America crap?

    Good question: Who (if anybody) should be held accountable for the lost games and losing culture that have occurred here for the past 4 seasons? The people blamed so far in this thread: Bosh, Triano, Turk, JO's injury, the lockout, Michael Jordan, idiot and moronic americans, stupid stupid men and senseless fans that think being a GM is easy as hell. I say more blame should lie with the GM than with all of the above combined.
    BC is easily one of the top 10 GMs in the NBA who is not scared to pull of big trade attempts at getting big free agents. If you're gonna fire BC, you're gonna regret it. I also love how you haven't answered my question of who would replace BC if we fired him. As the original poster of the firing of BC, you haven't even given a possible GM to replace him. This can only mean that you can't name one GM that would do better than BC. Therefore, your whole argument is invalid. As for me writing a lot, it's cuz I have to get it through your thick ignorant skull. I don't see any harm in the "Pound the Rock" mentality. I feel like it's good indicator that BC and DC are serious about getting rid of the image of the Raptors being a poor defensive team and I'm pretty sure that's what every Raptors fan has wanted for the past 3-4 years. I think NoPropsNeeded has a point in the mentality that Toronto is a horrible place to play basketball. I wouldn't call them idiots or morons, but I would definitely call them ignorant players who are not open-minded and are uneducated about the world outside the US. The Raptors might not be an amazing team right now, but Toronto should be as great of a destination as NY if players would be more open-minded. Toronto is a beautiful city with a multicultural environment, one of the bigger markets in the NBA, and a loyal/strong fan-base (probably excluding you as it's obvious that you don't support the Raptors). I give props to NoPropsNeeded (no pun intended) for including this in the conversation. As for you, you are a senseless and moronic "fan"! You think being a GM is easy because you try to do it yourself in these forums along with everyone else. But there is more to being a GM than what people try to do in these forums. BC isn't perfect and no one expects him to be, but he has done his job as well as he can with what he is given. If you can't understand that, then you are no Raptors fan! Since you have not provided any counter argument to my previous post, I will assume that you have no further logical rebuttal and thus, your argument is again obsolete! Good day to you, good sir!
    Last edited by Blacklash2k4; Wed Jul 4th, 2012 at 01:33 AM.

  6. #266
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    This is a good statement of the losing culture that surrounds this organization. It's time to abort the BC plan, and let "Pound the Rock" permeate though the organization.
    Colangelo hired Dwane Casey (who brought in the Pound the Rock mentality).

    I agree with Noprops and Backlash.
    “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

    -- Charles Barkley

  7. #267
    Raptors Republic Veteran NoPropsneeded's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Was only clowning you, bro. And no need for the 200 word tangent on a trade that we didn't successfully pull off.



    This is a good statement of the losing culture that surrounds this organization. It's time to abort the BC plan, and let "Pound the Rock" permeate though the organization.

    NoPropsNeeded - Did you really just blame 4 straight losing seasons on "idiot and moron" americans? And then call America crap?

    Good question: Who (if anybody) should be held accountable for the lost games and losing culture that have occurred here for the past 4 seasons? The people blamed so far in this thread: Bosh, Triano, Turk, JO's injury, the lockout, Michael Jordan, idiot and moronic americans, stupid stupid men and senseless fans that think being a GM is easy as hell. I say more blame should lie with the GM than with all of the above combined.
    mainly yes. FA are a huge part of building a good team and if you cant get them its very hard to build a contender

  8. #268
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    Quote NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
    mainly yes. FA are a huge part of building a good team and if you cant get them its very hard to build a contender
    Thank you! ++1

  9. #269
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    Toronto has got to be one of the hardest teams to run. Nobody wants to come here. BC is doing just fine with what he's got

  10. #270
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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Rivers ahead of Beal? I guess your methodology is based upon weather maps and 20 sided dice?

    I like Ross, ut didn't expect him either, but only because I was hoping for Lillard, who only shot up in the last couple of weeks, so I had Lillard-tunnel-vision.

    I'm so glad we didn't draft Barnes, Rivers or Drummond that Ross will certainly be a favourite player of mine for years to come, since whatever he does or doesn't do, he prevented us from drafting a franchise killer.

    He seems like a serviceable player too, so that's a bonus.
    Rivers is an incredible talent and his basketball IQ is unmatched in this entire draft class. I can see Beal being an attractive player, but prior to Duke failing to advance far into the NCAA tournament it was pretty wide open in terms of scouting and how might be the best SG out there. Beal was (and still is) undersized for his position.

    I don't know how you could possibly tell at this age that a player will be a franchise killer.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  11. #271
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Let's not get carried away here. BC is not a great GM, but he is learning on the go. He's by no means a top 10 GM, but he's survived thus far.. personally I would have liked to see him get fired a couple years ago, but seeing as we didn't fire him I rather see what he's got in store.

    Hopefully we get Landry Fields, but if we don't, then at least we're that much closer to landing Nash.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  12. #272
    Raptors Republic All-Star wallz's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Rivers is an incredible talent and his basketball IQ is unmatched in this entire draft class. I can see Beal being an attractive player, but prior to Duke failing to advance far into the NCAA tournament it was pretty wide open in terms of scouting and how might be the best SG out there. Beal was (and still is) undersized for his position.

    I don't know how you could possibly tell at this age that a player will be a franchise killer.
    Rivers will get out-muscled by players like Beal. And he had very low assist numbers for a guy that had the ball in his hands so often. He's a good scorer, don't get me wrong. But Beal is the better player, IMO

  13. #273
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Rivers reminds me of Steve Francis... and not in a good way

  14. #274
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    Rivers reminds me of Steve Francis... and not in a good way
    LOL your pic is great

  15. #275
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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    BC is easily one of the top 10 GMs in the NBA who is not scared to pull of big trade attempts at getting big free agents. If you're gonna fire BC, you're gonna regret it. I also love how you haven't answered my question of who would replace BC if we fired him. As the original poster of the firing of BC, you haven't even given a possible GM to replace him. This can only mean that you can't name one GM that would do better than BC. Therefore, your whole argument is invalid. As for me writing a lot, it's cuz I have to get it through your thick ignorant skull. I don't see any harm in the "Pound the Rock" mentality. I feel like it's good indicator that BC and DC are serious about getting rid of the image of the Raptors being a poor defensive team and I'm pretty sure that's what every Raptors fan has wanted for the past 3-4 years. I think NoPropsNeeded has a point in the mentality that Toronto is a horrible place to play basketball. I wouldn't call them idiots or morons, but I would definitely call them ignorant players who are not open-minded and are uneducated about the world outside the US. The Raptors might not be an amazing team right now, but Toronto should be as great of a destination as NY if players would be more open-minded. Toronto is a beautiful city with a multicultural environment, one of the bigger markets in the NBA, and a loyal/strong fan-base (probably excluding you as it's obvious that you don't support the Raptors). I give props to NoPropsNeeded (no pun intended) for including this in the conversation. As for you, you are a senseless and moronic "fan"! You think being a GM is easy because you try to do it yourself in these forums along with everyone else. But there is more to being a GM than what people try to do in these forums. BC isn't perfect and no one expects him to be, but he has done his job as well as he can with what he is given. If you can't understand that, then you are no Raptors fan! Since you have not provided any counter argument to my previous post, I will assume that you have no further logical rebuttal and thus, your argument is again obsolete! Good day to you, good sir!

    Pretty unfair to discredit the fully justified criticism of BC because I don't have the means to engage in a full-blown GM search. For one, Donny Walsh is available. And why do you cote your posts so thickly in childish insults? They only show that you are on the defensive. Lashing out is a last resort.

    Colangelo hired Dwane Casey (who brought in the Pound the Rock mentality).
    Are you sure that DC didn't just show up one day?

  16. #276
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Pretty unfair to discredit the fully justified criticism of BC because I don't have the means to engage in a full-blown GM search. For one, Donny Walsh is available. And why do you cote your posts so thickly in childish insults? They only show that you are on the defensive. Lashing out is a last resort.



    Are you sure that DC didn't just show up one day?
    Like I said, your whole argument is about firing BC and it's completely flawed considering you clearly haven't thought it through. For one thing, it's Donnie Walsh. Secondly, you clearly don't know anything about the NBA since Donnie Walsh already has a job being the President of Basketball Operations for the Pacers. Makes no sense to be the president of one team and be the GM of a rival Eastern Conference team at the same time. And don't say he's gonna quit his job to come here. What's better? Being the president of a young team that got all the way to the second round of the playoffs last year or being the GM of a team that's still technically finding itself in the NBA and hasn't been in the playoffs for 4 years? Gee, I don't know that answer to that... Also, what is the point of firing a GM if you can't even find a good enough replacement? You clearly don't know who should replace him which can only mean you never thought of that in your original argument to fire him. And I'm on the defensive? Look at how short and sloppy your arguments are getting. You're clearly done with all your counter-arguments because you don't have anything else to argue about that would make any sense since you know I'm right. Unless you can think of anything else unintelligent to say as a rebuttal, you're fighting for a pointless argument. Face it. Your argument is completely out the window now! Doesn't matter whether or not BC is doing a bad job or not. If you can't find a good enough replacement that will do better than what he's doing right now, there is no point firing him.

  17. #277
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    Pretty unfair to discredit the fully justified criticism of BC because I don't have the means to engage in a full-blown GM search. For one, Donny Walsh is available.
    NoBan, you may want to tone it down but, as a guy who wanted Colangelo fired 2 years ago you have to get used to the usual excuses for Colangelo. They usually go something like this:

    1. He is respected by "them". (Though it never seems to translate into anything for the team)
    2. He tries really hard and swings for the fences. (This is one of the excuses when you point out the lack of results)
    3. Toronto is an impossible place to run a basketball team/no free agents will come here/ players don't like: weather, taxes, country, no ESPN, etc. (this is the excuse when you point at the roster is terrible)
    4. There isn't anyone better/no GM will come to Toronto/ who would you want as the new GM, genius? This is the old "devil you know argument". Like the dude who should leave his awful girl but is afraid he won't find anyone better. I love this one cause it flied in the face of their own guy: Colangelo was a highly touted GM and it was a total surprise that he left Phoenix to come to Toronto. Yet, even though it just happened, no other GM with a track record will come to Toronto.
    5. It's not his fault the players he signed were lazy, got injured, didn't pan out. This is usually paired with numbers 2 and 3

    There should just be a sticky thread about Colangelo with those excuses in one column and the team's record in another. Would save a lot of time....

  18. #278
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    NoBan, you may want to tone it down but, as a guy who wanted Colangelo fired 2 years ago you have to get used to the usual excuses for Colangelo. They usually go something like this:

    1. He is respected by "them". (Though it never seems to translate into anything for the team)
    2. He tries really hard and swings for the fences. (This is one of the excuses when you point out the lack of results)
    3. Toronto is an impossible place to run a basketball team/no free agents will come here/ players don't like: weather, taxes, country, no ESPN, etc. (this is the excuse when you point at the roster is terrible)
    4. There isn't anyone better/no GM will come to Toronto/ who would you want as the new GM, genius? This is the old "devil you know argument". Like the dude who should leave his awful girl but is afraid he won't find anyone better. I love this one cause it flied in the face of their own guy: Colangelo was a highly touted GM and it was a total surprise that he left Phoenix to come to Toronto. Yet, even though it just happened, no other GM with a track record will come to Toronto.
    5. It's not his fault the players he signed were lazy, got injured, didn't pan out. This is usually paired with numbers 2 and 3

    There should just be a sticky thread about Colangelo with those excuses in one column and the team's record in another. Would save a lot of time....
    It's craziness. Not only do they blindly defend the GM, they resort to personal insults when valid points make them defensive. So is it all most people on here that behave like this? Or is it just a few?

  19. #279
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    Quote Blacklash2k4 wrote: View Post
    Doesn't matter whether or not BC is doing a bad job or not.
    This is an actual quote. Is there any way we can get it bronzed on put on display at the ACC? Or least least in the Raps Repub banner?

    Edit: I just wanted to comment that this quote is the best attempt at producing a quadruple negative i've ever personally came across. Kudos.
    Last edited by NoBan; Wed Jul 4th, 2012 at 03:20 PM.

  20. #280
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    It's craziness. Not only do they blindly defend the GM, they resort to personal insults when valid points make them defensive. So is it all most people on here that behave like this? Or is it just a few?
    No you are just the exception. I personally hate you mainly cuz I hate ignorant people. If you hate the Raptors so much, why do you even have an account on this site? Idiots these days don't make any sense to me.

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