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Thread: OFFICIAL: Landry Fields is a Toronto Raptor

  1. #401
    Raptors Republic Starter Pill's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    One of my concerns is that Toronto now has Fields, JJ, Kleiza, DeRozan, Ross and Forbes on the wings (excluding Acy, who could slide to SF in a big lineup). That is 6 players, 5 of whom are legit, solid rotation players (Forbes being the exclusion). The problem though, is that none of them are proven high-quality STARTERS, with the possible exception of DeRozan if he continues to improve this year - he is weak defensively and has a horrendous outside shot. Ross could very well become a great starting SG, but he's likely at least a few seaons away from that.

    DD - at best, he's a starting SG
    Ross - solid backup SG, could develop into starter in a few seasons
    Fields - solid backup SG or SF
    Kleiza - solid backup SF or PF in a smaller lineup
    JJ - solid backup SF

    I still think the Raptors need to add a legitimate, high quality, veteran starting SF. Even if such a SF (ie: Iggy) is acquired and JJ is traded away, the Raptors are still going to be hard pressed to find enough playing time for all 5 players (the same problem holds true even if they roll with the 5 players they have now). Fields is a decent signing, albeit a little overpaid, but he just adds to the logjam at the wing position on the 2nd unit.
    I agree for the most part. I think we are going to have to wait to see how any further trades shake out before we can evaluate this signing proper.

    I think fields has the potential to be a starter and I am not too worried about his second year stats. I am hoping for a course correction on that front from him. This season was a disaster from a development standpoint for younger players with limited practice time. That coupled with the circus that the knicks were and the style of play they really didn't give him a chance to be successful. I would put Ed Davis in the same boat. Even DD to a lesser extent. The limited practices they got were focused on this defensive philosophy. Would have loved to have Casey and no shortened season for DD since he got here. I can guarantee he would be a better player for it.

  2. #402
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    He picked arguably the BPA @ #8 (and no, we don't know for certain what trades were available to be made, despite rumors), made the best pitch possible for Nash (it's not BC's fault Nash said no) and I'm sure he had a contingency plan in place for exactly this situation. It's easy to blame BC when success doesn't come quickly, but he's assembled a young, talented group of players with the intention of letting them grow and develop together organically.

    I'm not exactly sure what more you're hoping for. It's easy to say he should do this, that or the other thing, but he can only makes trades if the other team agrees to it and can only sign free agents who choose to play here. As fans, we hear about rumors and clamor for certain moves to be made, but we have no realistic view into the inner workings of any NBA GM's office, to really know what could have been done.

    Has every move BC has made turned out to be a good one? Nope. But I don't recall a single trade/signing that had fans and experts all saying it was a bad move from the get go... after the fact yes, but not at the time of the deal, so it's hardly fair to use hindsight when evaluating historic moves.

    I frankly still like the position the Raptors franchise is in right now - management, coaching staff, roster and cap flexibility - moreso than many other NBA teams.
    How can you not be sure what I'm hoping for?? ... It's the immediate firing of Colangelo.

    Doesn't come quickly? DOESNT COME QUICKLY? There is no visible path to success here. It's been 4 years and going on 5 of not even sniffing the playoffs and looking to the lotto before the all star game.

    You argue that he's done a good job of assembling a young core that can grow organically. 2 issues - 1) if you think DeRo and ED are core pieces, youre a homer and 2) why so hotly and publicly pursue a 38 year old that will change the identity of the team (after we build a defensively minded culture last season)? It's a spectacularly flawed plan that predictably continues to fail.

    How can you say he's never made a bad move from the get-go? No other team would have taken Bargnani at 1, Kapono was highly questionable, Fields' offer sheet is a f*&king joke, Triano was a questionable hire at best and will never be a head coach in the NBA again, the ridiculous pursuit of Nash, the trading of Barbosa for nothing, losing Bosh for nothing... that's only a few examples. Just because his moves are not questioned in Homerland (aka Raps Repub), doesn't mean they are not questionable.

    As for the Ross pick, I don't have particular issue with adding an athlete that can shoot & defend. But he plays the same position as a recent lotto pick AND we proceeded to grossly overpay another guy that plays that same spot too. How can you trust this man? HOW? HOW? HOW?????????!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!

  3. #403
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    SAS is right. Nobody has any idea what Toronto is doing, least of all the GM. We're a laughing stock and an embarrassment. We're on track for our 5th straight lottery, yet most of Raps Repub somehow still trust the red-headed clown.
    I put ZERO stock into what most of the American media says about anything raptors. How many raptors games have any of them watched? Probably none in years. They don't even know simple details about the team or its players. (AB is a center apparently) They don't even know how to pronounce raptor players names half the time. (Magic im looking at you) That should tip you off that there is an unfamiliarity. They are spouting off uninformed opinions as gospel and getting paid to do so.

    That said. BC could be doing a better job. If there isn't serious on the court improvement this year then I wont be sad to see him go. He has had his chances and his fair share of mistakes.

  4. #404
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    @NoBan

    Immediate firing???

    I can understand your angst if not agree with it but "immediate"? ... when we are in the midst of a franchise defining period (this entire summer). And replaced with whom? What do you think theramp up time would be for the new honcho...unlessyou want Stefanski. The time to seriously evaluate BC is at the very least mid the upcoming season when the dust settles from the total activities of the summer, the new crew is on the floor and we have at least a rudimentary understanding/view of how the pieces mesh and prospects for the immediate future.

  5. #405
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    How can you not be sure what I'm hoping for?? ... It's the immediate firing of Colangelo.

    Doesn't come quickly? DOESNT COME QUICKLY? There is no visible path to success here. It's been 4 years and going on 5 of not even sniffing the playoffs and looking to the lotto before the all star game.

    You argue that he's done a good job of assembling a young core that can grow organically. 2 issues - 1) if you think DeRo and ED are core pieces, youre a homer and 2) why so hotly and publicly pursue a 38 year old that will change the identity of the team (after we build a defensively minded culture last season)? It's a spectacularly flawed plan that predictably continues to fail.

    How can you say he's never made a bad move from the get-go? No other team would have taken Bargnani at 1, Kapono was highly questionable, Fields' offer sheet is a f*&king joke, Triano was a questionable hire at best and will never be a head coach in the NBA again, the ridiculous pursuit of Nash, the trading of Barbosa for nothing, losing Bosh for nothing... that's only a few examples. Just because his moves are not questioned in Homerland (aka Raps Repub), doesn't mean they are not questionable.

    As for the Ross pick, I don't have particular issue with adding an athlete that can shoot & defend. But he plays the same position as a recent lotto pick AND we proceeded to grossly overpay another guy that plays that same spot too. How can you trust this man? HOW? HOW? HOW?????????!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!!!!!!
    You don't like BC, I get it.

    You have to separate the Bosh years and the post-Bosh years, as it is essentially 2 diferent teams. I personally disagreed with the entire approach to build around Bosh, as I thought he was overrated and not a franchise player, but I certainly understand why BC did it and know that any other GM would have done the same. Once Bosh decided on Miami, BC was left with 2 choices: let him walk for nothing, or trade him for 2x 1st round picks and a big TPE. I obviously would have liked to have gotten more, but I was satisfied with the deal, given the circumstances. I have been happy with the legit rebuild that has been underway since Bosh left.

    I never said DD/Ed were core pieces or franchise building blocks, but I agree that they were the right draft picks to be made when they were made. They were both widely agreed upon as being BPA when they were picked, same as Ross. The Bargnani pick has been covered too much to get into again, but Bosh made Aldridge redundant (unfortunately and BC wasn't about to draft a backup 1st overall), Roy is retired (despite comeback attempt) and Bargnani was looking like a near-all last season. If Bargnani had been picked 5th overall he wouldn't get nearly the hate that he receives, simply for being picked 1st overall. I will grant you that the Kapono signing was pretty unanimously received as bad from the start. I forgot (blocked?) that one. Lots of moves were ultimately deemed "bad" during the Bosh years, but they are long past and I really only care about the post-Bosh rebuilding years and the future.

    The Fields signing was obviously part of the Nash pursuit. First, he hasn't officially signed anything until July 11th, at which time the NYK would have 3 days to match, so he's not even a Raptor yet. Second, the first two seasons @ $5M wouldn't be bad at all, especially if he continues to improve. Third, there's no guarantee that he'd be here for the entire length of the contract - who knows, he could make an attractive trade asset as a $9M expiring contract two years from now. We really can't judge this one until we see what happens over the next few years. And we can't use the "but signing him to such an outrageous contract prevented us from signing or trading for player x" argument, because we have no way of really knowing what offers are actually ever on the table (Houston draft day rumors are perfect case in point).

    I have big expectations for BC and my patience is wearing thin, but the strategy he is employing in the post-Bosh era has been sound. Not all the moves have panned out the way we might have hoped, but the same can be said about every GM in the league. Also, without knowing what other moves could have been made, we have no idea whether BC has done the same, better or worse than another GM would have done in his place. We should absolutely question his moves, but I believe in the direction the team is finally taking, with the organic build-from-the-inside approach.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jul 5th, 2012 at 01:59 PM.

  6. #406
    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    How can you not be sure what I'm hoping for?? ... It's the immediate firing of Colangelo.

    Doesn't come quickly? DOESNT COME QUICKLY? There is no visible path to success here. It's been 4 years and going on 5 of not even sniffing the playoffs and looking to the lotto before the all star game.
    +1

    there is no denying it. This offseason has been a huge clusterf*** . we have been told by BC to wait a little longer we have all this cap space and flexibility.

    for what? Landy Fields and.... ? I have a hard to thinking that there is redemption.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  7. #407
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    +1

    there is no denying it. This offseason has been a huge clusterf*** . we have been told by BC to wait a little longer we have all this cap space and flexibility.

    for what? Landy Fields and.... ? I have a hard to thinking that there is redemption.
    Kyle Lowry?

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    So the extra $2.1M per year would cause Raps to have to give up draft picks and young lowly paid players?

    I don't think $2,1M is a deal breaker for the type of contract I was alluding to.
    I think you have to give something useful along with a bad contract which extends beyond the current year. Unless you receive goods of equal poor quality, of course.

    Landry Fields at $6.3M towards the cap space is not an attractive asset for this year and the next if he plays near or at the same level of skills he displayed the past two years. In my opinion his contract is much more of a liability than an asset for the next two years.

    There is always a chance he will improve significantly and be a fair or favorable contract but at $19M over 3 years, it is setting the bar pretty high before he provides fair value.

    Yes, we may get something decent in return when we approach the trade deadline in the last year of his contract but that's 2 1/2 years away and until then, his contract restricts our ability to sign a better free agent.

  9. #409
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    i read somewhere i think yahoo via twitter that the offer was never officially made. since of the july 11th thing.
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  10. #410
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I think you have to give something useful along with a bad contract which extends beyond the current year. Unless you receive goods of equal poor quality, of course.

    Landry Fields at $6.3M towards the cap space is not an attractive asset for this year and the next if he plays near or at the same level of skills he displayed the past two years. In my opinion his contract is much more of a liability than an asset for the next two years.

    There is always a chance he will improve significantly and be a fair or favorable contract but at $19M over 3 years, it is setting the bar pretty high before he provides fair value.

    Yes, we may get something decent in return when we approach the trade deadline in the last year of his contract but that's 2 1/2 years away and until then, his contract restricts our ability to sign a better free agent.
    Fair enough.

    Thanks for the insight.

  11. #411
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    i read somewhere i think yahoo via twitter that the offer was never officially made. since of the july 11th thing.
    Nothing is official until the 11th.

    However, very few people *I'm looking at your MJ, John Salmons, and Turk* renege on verbal commitments..... but it does happen

  12. #412
    Raptors Republic Veteran LBF's Avatar
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    i agree it would be douchey for the raps to do. but, fuck nobody cars about them anyway.

    i don't have a problem with the deal actually. if it was 5 i would. but, i mean 3. if he sucks he could be moved as an expiring in two summers from now.

    sure he'll be overpaid. but, it ain't my money, the raptors had to take a chance, he's not a bad player.

    seriously, everyone always freaks out about every move the raptors make like they had something better going for them and said "fuck it."

    newsflash, they dont!
    If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

    Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

  13. #413
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    How can you not be sure what I'm hoping for?? ... It's the immediate firing of Colangelo.

    Doesn't come quickly? DOESNT COME QUICKLY? There is no visible path to success here. It's been 4 years and going on 5 of not even sniffing the playoffs and looking to the lotto before the all star game.

    You argue that he's done a good job of assembling a young core that can grow organically. 2 issues - 1) if you think DeRo and ED are core pieces, youre a homer and 2) why so hotly and publicly pursue a 38 year old that will change the identity of the team (after we build a defensively minded culture last season)? It's a spectacularly flawed plan that predictably continues to fail. .....
    This is an extremely strong argument. Who would replace Colangelo is irrelevant. That's not in any of our pay scale. You don't draft a pf to play with your best player who is a pf and then say you are building around your best player. That was a flat out lie. IF they ever built around Bosh they would have traded that pick for a star Center. I mean come on, they both play the 4 the same way (except one can rebound and play defense). That's just for starters.

    Firing a former coach of the year when he's a game below .500? Not a good look. Bad free agent signings, etc. Whether you hate Bargs or love him, you can't say that trading him wouldn't have gotten us further into our development than keeping him has... can you? He's drafted well -- recently. But that's not the only thing a GM should be doing. And that Nash thing was a failed money grab. Wouldn't putting together a competitive team, not firing a solid coach, actually surrounding your "star" with the right players, etc, be a better strategy to bring people to games in a long-term manner? Don't get me started on his second round draft picks...

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    Quote LBF wrote: View Post
    i agree it would be douchey for the raps to do. but, fuck nobody cars about them anyway.

    i don't have a problem with the deal actually. if it was 5 i would. but, i mean 3. if he sucks he could be moved as an expiring in two summers from now.

    sure he'll be overpaid. but, it ain't my money, the raptors had to take a chance, he's not a bad player.

    seriously, everyone always freaks out about every move the raptors make like they had something better going for them and said "fuck it."

    newsflash, they dont!
    +1 We're trying to add talent, and that's something we just don't have. Landry Fields is a solid starter, not an all-star, but a player in the league that will last 10 years in the league, guy has game.

    Plus, even though not too big on trading away a possible pick, we gave up a reserve player in Forbes for arguably a top-10 point guard, BC made a great plan B, and this is smarter for the future in terms of the Lowry vs. Nash ordeal.

    Ross and Acy are high motor players. Acy is very similar to our old man, Reggie Evans, but is much more skilled offensively than he is. Terrence Ross is a great shooter, has solid ability to create a shot, and was said to be an aggressive defender. Two players that fit into Dwane Casey's system of defense, defense, defense.

    If I may say, I doubt Landry is back on the Knicks next season, I totally see him on the roster next season. We have a MUCH talented roster, with an infusions of talent now and for the future.

    Oh yeah, did anyone say JONAS VALANCIUNAS? Even though he has a lot of hype, the guy can play, much tougher than what we perceive as 'Soft European' players.

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    Super Moderator ReubenJRD's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    This is an extremely strong argument. Who would replace Colangelo is irrelevant. That's not in any of our pay scale. You don't draft a pf to play with your best player who is a pf and then say you are building around your best player. That was a flat out lie. IF they ever built around Bosh they would have traded that pick for a star Center. I mean come on, they both play the 4 the same way (except one can rebound and play defense). That's just for starters.

    Firing a former coach of the year when he's a game below .500? Not a good look. Bad free agent signings, etc. Whether you hate Bargs or love him, you can't say that trading him wouldn't have gotten us further into our development than keeping him has... can you? He's drafted well -- recently. But that's not the only thing a GM should be doing. And that Nash thing was a failed money grab. Wouldn't putting together a competitive team, not firing a solid coach, actually surrounding your "star" with the right players, etc, be a better strategy to bring people to games in a long-term manner? Don't get me started on his second round draft picks...
    Tunnel Vision.

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    "Fields finished his senior season leading the Pac-10 in scoring and rebounding, despite playing primarily as a shooting guard and small forward. He was named to the All-Pac-10 first team. His average of 22 points per game was also good enough for eighth in the nation overall in scoring."

    From Wikipedia

    He maybe overpaid some but that is not his fault. It was the circumstances. He is a good player with character and will be a positive addition to the team.

  17. #417
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    Quote RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
    Tunnel Vision.
    Troll.

    Use evidence, facts, create an argument or step.

  18. #418
    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Landry Fields is among the best available free agents, he has proven he can play heavy minutes at the 2 and 3 in the nba, and has put up amazing numbers doing so. I'm no WP48 cultist, but do feel the stat has some merit, so for example he is the 2nd rated free agent on wages of wins.

    He fits Casey's defensive orientation as well as the character/motor the team is looking for.

    Great signing. Anybody who doesn't want Fields on this team is basically broadcasting the fact that their opinions on basketball can be safely ignored.

    Fields, Lowry and Ross are exactly the kind of guys the team should be bringing in. I'll let the front office worry about money and who gets how much. It ain't my money. I love the Fields signing and I'm hoping NY doesn't match.

    I'd love to see a starting line up next year of JV, ED, Fields, Ross and Lowry. There will be lots of mistakes, but these are all productive players (or project to be in the case of Ross). There will be lots of mistakes with this much youth in the lineup, but f this is our starting line up, we win 45+ games. I'd be OK with Amir instead of ED. I wonder what Liston thinks.

    I think BC has moved on from Andrea and DeMar. High five to Rucker if had anything to do with it. And certainly Casey seems to have been a really good influence.

    Best,

  19. #419
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Landry Fields is among the best available free agents
    not quite. He is among the more serviceable free agents...lets not put him up there with Nash/DWill and like just yet


    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    he has proven he can play heavy minutes at the 2 and 3 in the nba,
    True


    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    and has put up amazing numbers doing so.
    9pts 5 boards and 3 assists are hardly amazing. They are again...I repeat...serviceable.


    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    I'm no WP48 cultist, but do feel the stat has some merit, so for example he is the 2nd rated free agent on wages of wins.
    That was based on him making 800K not 8 times that

    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    He fits Casey's defensive orientation as well as the character/motor the team is looking for.
    True

    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Great signing. Anybody who doesn't want Fields on this team is basically broadcasting the fact that their opinions on basketball can be safely ignored.
    There are reasons not to like this signing. They are valid reasons. Opinions to the negative should not be ignored. I do however think he is and will be a solid player in the future. We overpaid no questions asked. That's not a debate. But you will always OVERPAY for an RFA its the only way to make the other team blink

    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Fields, Lowry and Ross are exactly the kind of guys the team should be bringing in.
    agreed

    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    I'll let the front office worry about money and who gets how much. It ain't my money.
    There is an argument to be made towards the competency of a GM based on who gets what money. Its a fair discussion to have.

    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    I love the Fields signing and I'm hoping NY doesn't match.
    I like it...I don't love it. Solid two way player lots of upside high bball IQ.

    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    I'd love to see a starting line up next year of JV, ED, Fields, Ross and Lowry.
    Gotta make the rookie earn it. Might be some of the issues we have with DeRozan he was fed starters minutes.

    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    we win 45+ games. I'd be OK with Amir instead of ED. I wonder what Liston thinks.
    we most definitely do not win 45 games with that line up

    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    I think BC has moved on from Andrea and DeMar.
    What are you basing that on?

    Quote Quirk wrote: View Post
    Casey seems to have been a really good influence.
    Agreed

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    Raptors Republic Starter Quirk's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    That was based on him making 800K not 8 times that
    No, it isn't. It's based "Value at Minutes Played" and values him at 15M per year, based on his body of work so far. Below only Nash.

    Now, as I said, I'm no WP48 cultist, I do not believe he is the 2nd most valuable free agent this year, but do believe, as I said, that he is among them. By among them I mean best 5 or so. Certainly given his age.

    Money is just another asset. Getting assets in the NBA is hard, I would rather "overpay" with money, then with picks or players. When you get a chance to bring in a young, productive player that fits your team needs, you do it anyway you can.

    "value" is extremely relative to opportunity.

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