CalgaryRapsFan wrote:
Is there a benefit for us doing a sign and trade for fields vs signing him to the offer sheet other than the Knicks not matching? I'm clear on the fact that they get a TPE out of it, just unsure if doing a S&T gives us more options to acquire players
I dont get it.
It would have to be on the same terms as the Raps offer wouldn't it? I can see that Fields bird rights get transferred in the s&t ( unsure of the rule here). And the big kicker is providing the Knicks with the TPE...which they can use to get better (helping the enemy). All to say why do it when all indications are we get him anyway as it stands.
Raps could sign Fields in a S&T using TPE after all other business is done.
That would allow the Raptors to use the cap space they currently have in another trade whereby they could take back up to $6.75M ($11M minus difference in Lowry/Forbes contract). They would also have MLE at disposal and would not have to renounce any players.
This is off the top of my head - if anything is wrong, let me know!
That makes alot of sense. Hope we can get NYK on board. Thanks for clarifying Matt.
Thanks. You sure u dont have a pipeline to Coon? CalRaps too. Knicks are probably too pissed at BC to assist I think.
I just got a reply from Larry Coon via Twitter, that said a S&T for Fields is still possible, as long as all 3 parties agree to it. NYK would get a TPE worth 50% of the value of the first year of Fields' new contract. If he was signed for $6.3M for the first year, NYK would get a $3.15M TPE, in addition to whatever other assets Toronto traded to them.
I hope BC pushes for a S&T, offering a 2013 2nd round pick as a 'thank you'.
NYK
- get a free 2nd round pick
- get a $3.15M TPE to potentially acquire another player even after they are over the cap and finished using their exceptions
TOR
- if the Lowry & Fields trades are done as the first two transactions, they would reach the salary cap via trades (as opposed to via free agent signings), allowing them to maintain their full MLE, as well as the $7.6M TPE they got for Barbosa
- wouldn't have to renounce Bayless or Gray (only players that really matter to Toronto, since Weems can't be used in S&T)
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jul 10th, 2012 at 04:22 PM.
Would they not have to use a portion of the 7.6. 7.6-3.15= a 4.45 remaining TPE for the raptors
Was our Bi annual used on Gray last year??
Also do we not require cap space for the Lowry deal(5.75-1.5) = 4.25 of salary taken on if we are above the cap. the TPE would help there
Last edited by jbml; Tue Jul 10th, 2012 at 04:42 PM.
Yes you are right. They'd either have to use the TPE to acquire Fields in the S&T, or they'd have to renounce everybody they have a cap-hold for, to have approx. $12M cap space available (for Fields @ $6.3M & Lowry @ $5.75M). They can't maintain their player rights (ie: Bayless) AND the TPE. The MLE would be retained regardless, so long as Fields is acquired via S&T.
With this 50% rule for Fields they could get both fields and Lowry for the TPE
But a tend to think now that we will have the MLE regardless as Matt has pointed out in the past. So I am unsure why we would give the knicks anything (3.15 TPE)
EDit : It may be Bayless's bird rights that we can maintain
Last edited by jbml; Tue Jul 10th, 2012 at 04:41 PM.
The 50% rule has nothing to do with Toronto or the Barbosa TPE. It only comes into play if the Fields S&T is done while Toronto has enough cap space to sign Fields (ie: NOT using the Barbosa TPE). Since Toronto would be acquiring a player it could fully sign outright and NY is not taking any salary back, a brand new TPE would be created for NY. The value of the new TPE would be equal to 50% of whatever amount the first year of Fields' new contract is. I'm not sure why NY would only get a TPE worth 50% of Fields' new salary, instead of a full 100% (like Toronto did when they traded Barbosa to Indy, who had enough cap space to fully add his contract), but that's what Larry Coon confirmed.
Essentially, Toronto would have to do the Fields S&T first, while they still have at least $6.3M cap space available, in order for the new TPE to be created for NY.
The Lowry trade would have to be completed after the Fields S&T. Toronto would either have to use the Barbosa TPE to acquire Lowry, or would have to renounce enough free agents to clear up $4.25M cap space (Lowry's $5.75M - Forbes' $1.5M). To clear enough space, they'd have to renounce all cap-holds except Valanciunas & Ross (this includes Bayless & Gray).
Either way, as long as both Lowry & Fields are acquired via trade, Toronto would maintain the full MLE.
Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jul 10th, 2012 at 04:57 PM.
Do you have the tweet?
I follow Coon and didn't see it come up.
I'm not sure that is correct.
I asked Coon a question a month back about trading for a player like Gay with little contract going out and the effect on the exceptions. He said they would be kept if the salary cap space is used to facilitate a trade.
So the Raptors could trade for Lowry, then trade for Fields, and have their exceptions left.
Gray could be resigned with his rights and Bayless too.
@LarryCoon ...if they take on salary that uses up that cap space, do they have to renounce their exceptions like they would if signing a FA?
Larry Coon Larry Coon
What do you mean by "take on salary?" If they have enough cap space to sign someone, then by definition they already don't have
@LarryCoon ...if they take on salary that uses up that cap space, do they have to renounce their exceptions like they would if signing a FA?
Larry Coon Larry Coon
@LarryCoon
...exceptions. If you mean in trade, then no, they can keep their exceptions.
Using cap space to facilitate a trade does not impact exceptions - and I would make the assumption a team's own free agents (like Bayless and Gray).@LarryCoon Thanks, Larry! Yes, by "take on salary" i meant trade. So if Raps trade for Gay after July 1st, still have Barbosa TPE and MLE?
Larry Coon Larry Coon
@LarryCoon
Right.
No, I couldn't copy and paste from twitter. It was a direct reply to one I had sent him. It didn't post on the ESPN twitter section, but it did show up on his twitter page. It came through earlier this afternoon... can't recall the exact time.
I see the Twitter Q&A here:
https://twitter.com/LarryCoon/status/222777669647998976
@LarryCoon Could Toronto make the Fields signing a S&T, with a 2013 2nd round pick going to NYK, thereby creating a $6.5M TPE for NYK?I'm assuming you're twitter handle is angrydave2?@angrydave2 Yes, the three parties could all mutually agree to do that, but trade exception would be 50% of new salary.
I think you are right, but they'd need to renounce everybody to gain the approx. $10.55M cap space needed to make both trades. Once those trades were made, they'd maintain their MLE and TPE, since they reached the cap via trades.
Fields trade - adds $6.3M
Lowry trade - adds $4.25M (Lowry $5.75 - Forbes $1.5)
I think they could do the following, in order:
1) either S&T Bayless for a pick, or renounce him
2) renounce all other cap holds, freeing up approx $12M cap space
3) complete Fields S&T deal
4) complete Lowry deal
- Raps would be just about right on the cap
- Raps would still have the MLE and Barbosa TPE, as well as the Room Exception
- Raps could sign (technically not a re-sign) Gray, using Room Exception at any time
Haha yes. I set it up right after the draft lottery, just to follow nba experts/insiders.
I know you know but it should be emphasized this all depends on the NYK facilitating a S&T.
According to ShamSports.com with Ross signed, the Raptors now have $41.075 in committed salary ($41.965 minus Alabi $890k). Add on Ross signing today which is $2.136 and Raptors are at $43.211. As of now JV is still a cap hold.
Assuming S&T with Knicks for Fields, theoretically, Raps could resign Gray and acquire Fields/Lowry without touching TPE or MLE.
One last thing, the Raps would not have a room exception if they have the MLE. It is one or the other. I think I have said in the past they could have both but I would have been wrong.
Given the Knicks roster situation with the new CBA, it is no longer an absurdity to think the Raps could not acquire him in a S&T, in my opinion. The Knicks are going to be VERY pressed for ways to add salary outside of trade exceptions or minimum contracts. Using the full MLE or Bi-annual exception gives them a hard cap of $74M this season as well.
Creating exceptions for the Knicks is just helping divisional rivals. We have enough movable pieces + amnesty if we need to make a move. I don’t think we see a sign and trade here that clearly helps the Knicks who are in a very uncertain position in our tight division
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