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Thread: PG options

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Our PG option is Jose. Of all the weaknesses on this team, PG is not the glaring one. If you had one stat to measure a PG with, what would it be? Assists. Points would be great but the rest of the team can do that. Rebounds? Rest of the team. Defense? It's team defense. So, assists it is. There are 30 teams in the league and Jose was #4 last year. We all lauded Nash for getting so many assists with no 20pt scorer on the team. We had not 20 point scorers either. No one will say he's Nash. But if you're looking to see who can steer the ship this year, we've got a pretty good one under contract. Take the year to find the replacement for next year. Build the rest of the team first.
    its never been about Jose not being good enough.. he just doesnt fit the style of play..his defence is an issue but if he pushed the ball & shot as good %wise as nash this debate wouldnt be going on...

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote optifan wrote: View Post
    Ok I get the Lowry thing. Great defender, proven starter, good offensive numbers etc. and clearly an upgrade over our currents PGs. But how much of an upgrade? Bayless' stats per 40 min are not much lower than Lowry's per 40 min. Also, Bayless stats as a starter (although a small sample size) are actually better: 18 ppg and 7 apg from what I recall. Also Bayless is a bit younger than Lowry and will only improve.

    Why aren't we giving this guy the chance to start and see what he can do? If it doesn't work out, he's not under contract beyond this year anyway.

    Again I sort of get the Lowry appeal and wouldn't be too disappointed if we get him. But I feel like we already have something similar right under our noses. And don't get me started on going after Dragic or Lin rather than giving Bayless a shot. That would just be nuts in my opinion.

    Yes what I'm proposing is not the sexy option, but when you look at it logically and objectively, am I wrong?

    Give Bayless the reins and see what happens. What've we got to lose?
    Firstly, per-40 minute stats mean a lot...more when the player is capable of earning close to 40 minutes per night, which Bayless has not been able to do on teams that have had roster space for him to work his way up.

    Secondly, Lowry may also improve and has shown more improvement in his career, in terms of earning a starter's spot and running an offense, than Bayless has so far...You're basically banking that in the 2 years age difference until Bayless catches up, he'll become a better player than Lowry. I don't buy that. Lowry led a subpar group of talent, other than Scola (their roster is not that good, talent-wise), to a winning record. Also Dragic stepped in and they continued to play well. What is the biggest difference between Dragic-Lowry and Calderon-Bayless??? It's that both in the former are actually PGs, while Bayless is not (maybe someday....not soon).

    What you're proposing is not the sexy option, but it is the wrong option. Jose is a better option, and re-signing him instead of Bayless is also a better option. Jose is only 30, and his game has never depended on athleticism, as his haters like to point out he lacks anyway. He can plug until we find a better replacement, or in the worst case an injury takes him out. When you look at it logically and objectively, getting Lowry, who has actually been improving instead of more or less sitting still for 2 years, to play with Jose and also sell Jose on backing him up in the future, makes the most sense out of the options left. Realistically, it seems the only way to improve our PG position moving forward with the options on the table.

  3. #43
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I merged the "PG Options", "Why not Bayless" and "Lets roll with Calderon" threads into a single "Raptors 2012-13 Starting PG Options" thread.

  4. #44
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    Landry Fields is NOT trade bait. Look, if you overpay a guy by double his value, there will be zero trade market for him. Rondo? Why even dream like that?

    Here's the list of Raptors players with anything close to "trade value":

    Bargnani
    Valanciunas
    Calderon's expiring deal (if we are willing to take a bad contract back).

    That's it. That's the list. (copywrite Tony Kornheiser)

    Unless we're packaging AB and JC and trying to shake things up, there are no trades to be made. This is what happens when you have a clown in the front office.

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    id say Demar,Davis & maybe to a lesser extent Amir have some trade value aswell...& if we do end up with fields he cant be traded for 6months anyway correct??

    on a side note: if Nash was sooo interested in being closer to his kids in PHX why the hell does he live in NY in the offseason???? just seems like a lame excuse to me.... he was starstruck by Kobe plain & simple..

  6. #46
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    Quote mcsemcp73 wrote: View Post
    Bayless is crap period waste of 4.1m could be used for SF
    I am not happy with the Raptors tendering a qualifying offer to Bayless but only because I believe his worth is $7-8M for 3 years. As a backup point guard, we could certainly do worse than Bayless.

    From my perspective, the $4.1M qualifying offer is a waste of $1.5M of cap space for this year as I would be fine with Bayless making $2.6M this year.

    But the offer made to Landry Fields? That one is way beyond me as I expected a $12M for 3 years offer from another team and the Knicks to consider matching.

  7. #47
    Raptors Republic All-Star Jclaw's Avatar
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    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=399953

    T. Chisholm does a good job at putting this in perspective

  8. #48
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    id say Demar,Davis & maybe to a lesser extent Amir have some trade value aswell...& if we do end up with fields he cant be traded for 6months anyway correct??

    on a side note: if Nash was sooo interested in being closer to his kids in PHX why the hell does he live in NY in the offseason???? just seems like a lame excuse to me.... he was starstruck by Kobe plain & simple..
    A couple of inaccuracies I see in this post.

    Ed Davis does not have trade value, he's barely NBA caliber. DeRo may be able to be moved if a team is desperate for a scoring wing (like the Clips getting Nick Young last year). Either way, we've be in a "sell low" situation with both guys.

    The Nash point. Starstruck? So he signed with a contender over a perenial loser because he was star struck by a guy with 1/2 as many MVPs as himself? Nash went to LA for 2 reasons - 1) They will compete for a title with him and 2) He's a west coast guy. LA likely feels more like home than Toronto.

    Nash was smart for 2 reasons - 1) He got himself in a decent spot to in a ring and 2) He used a desperate GM to drive up his value.

    So stop saying Nash was "starstuck" ... and everyone can stop claiming he turned his back on Canada. It just displays the bitterness, desperation, and patheticness of the Raptor fanbase.

  9. #49
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    id say Demar,Davis & maybe to a lesser extent Amir have some trade value aswell...& if we do end up with fields he cant be traded for 6months anyway correct??

    on a side note: if Nash was sooo interested in being closer to his kids in PHX why the hell does he live in NY in the offseason???? just seems like a lame excuse to me.... he was starstruck by Kobe plain & simple..
    After thinking about the Nash situation overnight, I also have to call BS. If it was ALL about his family, why didn't he just stay in Phoenix, to be really close to them? He gets to chase a ring, make market value $ and is as close to his family as possible (without actually being in Phoenix), so I do absolutely understand his decision. I just call BS on his trying to make it sounds like such a selfless, altruistic decision and wish he'd be more honest about it and say "I'm cashing in, I'm going to a contender and the family thing works out pretty well too."

    I'm much happier with his decision today, than I would have been had he chosen NYK. Although after the comments he made specifically saying he could never see himself pulling on a Lakers jersey...

  10. #50
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    Quote DoNDaDDa wrote: View Post
    on a side note: if Nash was sooo interested in being closer to his kids in PHX why the hell does he live in NY in the offseason???? just seems like a lame excuse to me.... he was starstruck by Kobe plain & simple..
    I don't know if I'd go with just starstruck, outside of Miami (who can't afford him) and OKC (who doesn't need him), that Lakers team is probably in the best situation to reach the finals. For all their faults it's still a team with Kobe, Gasol and Bynum and even Artest is a boost in the playoffs.

    god I hope they don't win. Of all teams he could've gone to, why the fucking Lakers.

  11. #51
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    Our PG option is Jose. Of all the weaknesses on this team, PG is not the glaring one. If you had one stat to measure a PG with, what would it be? Assists. Points would be great but the rest of the team can do that. Rebounds? Rest of the team. Defense? It's team defense. So, assists it is. There are 30 teams in the league and Jose was #4 last year. We all lauded Nash for getting so many assists with no 20pt scorer on the team. We had not 20 point scorers either. No one will say he's Nash. But if you're looking to see who can steer the ship this year, we've got a pretty good one under contract. Take the year to find the replacement for next year. Build the rest of the team first.
    I posted in the free agency thread that I don't understand the obsession with PGs in Raptorland. Calderon isn't Chris Paul but he's far from the weak link on this team. Even Bayless (I'm not a fan) is an acceptable backup PG at this point. Let's fix the glaring holes at SF and SG first.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star DoNDaDDa's Avatar
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    Quote NoBan wrote: View Post
    A couple of inaccuracies I see in this post.

    Ed Davis does not have trade value, he's barely NBA caliber. DeRo may be able to be moved if a team is desperate for a scoring wing (like the Clips getting Nick Young last year). Either way, we've be in a "sell low" situation with both guys.

    The Nash point. Starstruck? So he signed with a contender over a perenial loser because he was star struck by a guy with 1/2 as many MVPs as himself? Nash went to LA for 2 reasons - 1) They will compete for a title with him and 2) He's a west coast guy. LA likely feels more like home than Toronto.

    Nash was smart for 2 reasons - 1) He got himself in a decent spot to in a ring and 2) He used a desperate GM to drive up his value.

    So stop saying Nash was "starstuck" ... and everyone can stop claiming he turned his back on Canada. It just displays the bitterness, desperation, and patheticness of the Raptor fanbase.
    i never said ed's value would be high, just that hed have some value..

    the reason i say starstruck is because nash thinks Kobe is the best player in the world, hes said it before... he also wasnt even considering LA, even stated he couldnt bring himself to put that jersey on... then out of nowere Kobe calls him up 2days ago & now nash is a laker..

    i think people are upset he used the Raps, more then the fact he signed with the lakers anyway..at least i am

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    personally id be thrilled with Lowry and think he'd fit the team and coach perfectly but the way this offseason is going i won't hold my breath.
    @jerboat

  14. #54
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I merged the "PG Options", "Why not Bayless" and "Lets roll with Calderon" threads into a single "Raptors 2012-13 Starting PG Options" thread.
    The power is getting to you

  15. #55
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I think it is in the team's best interests to move on from Calderon.

    I really pity the guy. Everyone wants to feel wanted and a sense of belonging. I can't see how he could even pretend to feel that way. At this point, I can't blame him if he turns sour.

    He is a standup individual and a solid NBA citizen. Quite frankly, he deserves better.


    Things are getting interesting in Rocketville. They are making the offer to Lin and the Knicks are trying to sign and trade for Felton.

    I like Lowry in Toronto. Between a strong coach who is a good motivator and communicator and Alvin Williams in the shadows, Lowry seems to be the best option for Toronto.

    So back to Houston, if the rumours are true, they need to clear cap space to make this offer to Lin and Asik. Asik is 3 years and $25M. Lin is 3 and $25 or 4 and $31 depending on who you believe. Let lets just say the average is $8.5M for simplicity sake.

    Damn, after crunching numbers they only appear to be off by $2-$2.5M.


    Ugh. Little leverage there. Never mind.

  16. #56
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote jbml wrote: View Post
    The power is getting to you
    lol I thought it was pre-coffee deja vu, when I was reading simliar comments in three different threads... it worked well for the SF discussion!

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Starter themasao's Avatar
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    Quote Jclaw wrote: View Post
    http://www.tsn.ca/blogs/tim_chisholm/?id=399953

    T. Chisholm does a good job at putting this in perspective
    +1. What's funny is that, of all the point guards being mentioned (save Nash), Calderon is the best one. He's better than Bayless, he's better than Dragic, and yes, he is better than Lowry -- just currently more expensive.

    Really his biggest knock over the years has been his penchant for getting injured, but since I don't believe in 'injury-proneness' as an inherent thing, it doesn't really bother me. Having been injured in the past doesn't increase the likelyhood of being injured in the future, unless it's the type of injury that compromises health/strength/stability in a permanent way (e.g. ACL injuries). With Jose, we're talking about muscle pulls and ankle sprains -- hardly compromising in the long term.

    Moreover, Calderon, at 30, is NOT THAT OLD. And even if he was, he's not the kind of player who relies on explosiveness or athleticism to be effective. I doubt, for example, that his ability to take care of the ball will plummet along with his vertical leap.

    (Case in point about Calderon not relying on explosiveness: I have seen the man throw down a vicious two-handed tomahawk dunk in warmup, yet I think he has dunked in game maybe 3 times in his career. Why? Because he just doesn't need too; he is a paragon of efficiency.)

    My two cents? Extend Calderon for 3 years with a team option for a fourth. You'll probably get better value now when his value is (for whatever stupid reason) low. 4 Years $24 Million would be perfect.

  18. #58
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    I think anyone with an expiring, or potentially expiring contract has trade value. That means Calderon, Bayless, JJ, Ed, Forbes...I won't count Demar because as much as there are still questions about him, he's an NBAer, the question is just that his value is still uncertain in the long run. Bargs could be traded, but probably not for fair value. Amir...I doubt his value unless he's a piece in a much bigger deal, for a star-calibre player. I think the other guys all have more value or easier contracts to swallow.

    As for PG option...I'm sure there are some possibilities if we don't want to keep the same combo. My nightmare is Jameer Nelson. I could live with a guy like Sessions in place of Bayless for a year or two. I think there is no "PG of the future" to be had in free agency, obviously, since we went after Nash. I know there are other reasons, but he and Deron were top PGs and we never had a chance at Deron. I could live with giving Lowry a chance. I could live with Sessions for a year or two, mostly because I doubt he'll cost much. I could live with Dragic or Lin on fair value contracts, but it looks like their salaries are both going to get absurd bumps.

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    I am also a believer that if Calderon is still on our roster when the season opens, we should try to keep him around for another contract.

  20. #60
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    Quote themasao wrote: View Post
    My two cents? Extend Calderon for 3 years with a team option for a fourth. You'll probably get better value now when his value is (for whatever stupid reason) low. 4 Years $24 Million would be perfect.
    +1111 I would love to keep Calderon on the team beyond this season. If we are not getting one of the top 5-7 point guards in the game, i'm fine with Calderon leading the charge rather than over paying for Dragic or Lin. He will help JV transition as well as Nash could have, and that has to be one of our top focuses going forward.

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