View Poll Results: Which "plan" will/would have produced the best team?

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  • Plan A - Nash

    15 25.86%
  • Plan B - Lowry

    43 74.14%
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Thread: So was plan B better than plan A?

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Raptors fans just kill me.

    "If you don't do it, you're a fool. If you do do it, you're stupid."
    See above .. not a BC killer at all. Think its a good trade .. just think you have to take the draft pick into account when comparing nash to lowry (which is a big part of why I supported nash deal .. didnt cost us any young talent).

    I think its funny that one of the big hacks on the nash trade was that it was somehow going to kill our future by making us pick 5-10 slots higher than we might have without him .. yet when talking lowry, the thought of not having a pick at all next year seems to somehow get overlooked ..

  2. #82
    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    See above .. not a BC killer at all. Think its a good trade .. just think you have to take the draft pick into account when comparing nash to lowry (which is a big part of why I supported nash deal .. didnt cost us any young talent).

    I think its funny that one of the big hacks on the nash trade was that it was somehow going to kill our future by making us pick 5-10 slots higher than we might have without him .. yet when talking lowry, the thought of not having a pick at all next year seems to somehow get overlooked ..
    Next years draft is weaker. We already have an abundance of youth already. This is a better team then we have had in a while and the chances of us losing a top 5 pick is slim (and our team will probably be even better if BC does another couple moves).

    I actually think it was smart of BC to give up next years pick rather then our 8th pick on the night of the draft. Wasn't that the trade idea? Our 8th pick and a player for Lowry and one of their picks? We got a far better deal then that IMO.

    I think this trade strongly favours the Raptors (Raptor and Rocket fans agree that the Rockets got fleeced) and the pick is not something to lose sleep about.

  3. #83
    Raptors Republic Starter mountio's Avatar
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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    Next years draft is weaker. We already have an abundance of youth already. This is a better team then we have had in a while and the chances of us losing a top 5 pick is slim (and our team will probably be even better if BC does another couple moves).

    I actually think it was smart of BC to give up next years pick rather then our 8th pick on the night of the draft. Wasn't that the trade idea? Our 8th pick and a player for Lowry and one of their picks? We got a far better deal then that IMO.

    I think this trade strongly favours the Raptors (Raptor and Rocket fans agree that the Rockets got fleeced) and the pick is not something to lose sleep about.
    A skeptic might say the draft day deal was to give Houston our 8 pick and take their 12 (which still could have got us T Ross + Lowry and kept next years pick) .. but Im not sure that would have been enough to pry Lowry away ...

  4. #84
    Raptors Republic All-Star Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    A skeptic might say the draft day deal was to give Houston our 8 pick and take their 12 (which still could have got us T Ross + Lowry and kept next years pick) .. but Im not sure that would have been enough to pry Lowry away ...
    Can't remember where in this forum I read it but BC had reason to believe that Ross wouldn't be there at 12. The Raptors staff had the analytic's on Ross telling him he was the best pick available at the 8 spot.

    Let's please stop going on about "the Raptors could have got him by trading down."

    Reasons to shut up about "the Raptors could have got him by trading down."
    1. Their analysis showed him as the best available player
    2. They had reason to believe he wouldn't be there below 11
    3. BC tried to trade down and up but had no takers who didn't want more than he was willing to give up (Bargs or JV?)
    4. The Raptors staff of full-time professional talent analysts think they know better than Raptors fans on fan forums, so won't be taking your advice.

    So can we leave it alone now? Please?

  5. #85
    Raptors Republic All-Star Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    A skeptic might say the draft day deal was to give Houston our 8 pick and take their 12 (which still could have got us T Ross + Lowry and kept next years pick) .. but Im not sure that would have been enough to pry Lowry away ...
    I realize you aren't the one complaining about not trading the pick for a lower one, since you admit that the pick might not have "...been enough to pry Lowry away ..." so my little whine wasn't targeted at you. Your reference to skeptics just reminded me how tired I was of the whole thing.

  6. #86
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote mountio wrote: View Post
    See above .. not a BC killer at all. Think its a good trade .. just think you have to take the draft pick into account when comparing nash to lowry (which is a big part of why I supported nash deal .. didnt cost us any young talent).

    I think its funny that one of the big hacks on the nash trade was that it was somehow going to kill our future by making us pick 5-10 slots higher than we might have without him .. yet when talking lowry, the thought of not having a pick at all next year seems to somehow get overlooked ..
    If we had signed Nash, in 3 years time, when Nash is retired, a 2013 lotto pick would've been nice (but out of reach thanks to Nash's immediate impact in the Win column).

    In other words, we lose Nash and likely miss out on the lottery.

    But in Lowry's case, he'll still be here in 3 years time (assuming he's extended), and will likely be one of the team's biggest contributors. In this scenario, the lack of a 2013 pick is a much easier pill to swallow compared to the Nash scenario above.

    In other words, we still have Lowry, but lose a pick.
    Last edited by Nilanka; Sat Jul 7th, 2012 at 10:43 AM.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #87
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    Remember we owe memphis a 2nd round pick in 2016... Also in 2013 Boston has 3, Bobcats has 3, Minnisota has 4, cleavland has 5, Denver and lakers both have 3 and most are lottery protected also... PLUS with our luck we would win the 2013 draft because it pretty weak....and the prize would be Shabazz Muhammad and he is compared to be a James Harden/MKG

    http://nbadraft.net/players/shabazz-muhammad

  8. #88
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    It's also possible that Colangelo acquires another pick in any subsequent transaction this summer, or prior to the trade deadline.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  9. #89
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    my heart says plan A was better

    my head says plan B was much better
    IMO you summed it up for most people.

  10. #90
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    only downside i see to this compared to nash is if lowry leaves after 2 years. otherwise i also like it more than the nash for 3
    You really think Nash & his back at 38 would have lasted more than 2 years in cold Toronto (as opposed to dry Arizona or even LA)?
    I truly hope Nash wins 1 or 2 titles with LA.
    As to what happens with Lowry in 2 years? Will see. If we get 2 solid years out of him -call it a good trade.
    Lets enjoy this team. Even as it is (I believe BC is not done) this team should be a lot more enjoyable (and competitive) than last year's.
    I especially like the flexibility of this team due to fact that a lot of players can play more than 1 position. We appear to have 2 (sometimes 3) solid (solid or good, not great) players at every position. Packaging 2 or 3 of those guys for an upgrade (WITHOUT a huge salary -Eg R Gay...) might be a way to get much better.
    Last but not least: this team is very young. Outside of Jose (who I'd like to keep beyond this year, perhaps at a smaller salary) NONE of the other player have peaked yet. If we assume that NBA players peak at 26-29, even if half of our guys make improvement -this team could be very solid for years to come.
    I am looking forward NOW (not in 3-4 years as we faced last 2 years).

  11. #91
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    Next years draft is weaker. We already have an abundance of youth already. This is a better team then we have had in a while and the chances of us losing a top 5 pick is slim (and our team will probably be even better if BC does another couple moves).

    I actually think it was smart of BC to give up next years pick rather then our 8th pick on the night of the draft. Wasn't that the trade idea? Our 8th pick and a player for Lowry and one of their picks? We got a far better deal then that IMO.

    I think this trade strongly favours the Raptors (Raptor and Rocket fans agree that the Rockets got fleeced) and the pick is not something to lose sleep about.
    Colangelo didn't necessarily give up next years pick. He gave up the Raps next lottery pick within 5 years (bottom end protection is decreasing).

    Raptors trading picks is always a dangerous game. We've seen time and time again that the best way to obtain talent in the NBA is through the draft. I absolutely hate picks being included in any of the Raptors deals. This team has a tough enough time getting talent as it is, now a 7-9 year value contract was just moved.

    And if the 8th for Lowry + one of Houston's picks was available (and by all accounts it wasn't, but to your statement) that was a much better price as Ross was very likely to be available much lower. Having Lowry + Ross (on a cheaper rookie contract) + future lottery pick > Lowry + Ross - future lottery pick

  12. #92
    Raptors Republic All-Star Red and White's Avatar
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    Quote Craiger wrote: View Post
    Colangelo didn't necessarily give up next years pick. He gave up the Raps next lottery pick within 5 years (bottom end protection is decreasing).

    Raptors trading picks is always a dangerous game. We've seen time and time again that the best way to obtain talent in the NBA is through the draft. I absolutely hate picks being included in any of the Raptors deals. This team has a tough enough time getting talent as it is, now a 7-9 year value contract was just moved.

    And if the 8th for Lowry + one of Houston's picks was available (and by all accounts it wasn't, but to your statement) that was a much better price as Ross was very likely to be available much lower. Having Lowry + Ross (on a cheaper rookie contract) + future lottery pick > Lowry + Ross - future lottery pick
    My mistake on the year of the pick.

    I understand what you are saying and I think you make a great argument, but I disagree with some of the things you are saying.

    I think the best way to build a team is with balance. How is a team supposed to become successful if you only make moves to secure the future, and never for the present (and to clarify, that one pick does not ruin the future-not to mention BC could acquire another one if necessary)? Holding on to a draft pick (a pick that is really only valuable when your team loses) at the cost of an established, young, budding player is silly. Worrying about this pick is silly to me. This Raptors team is stacked with youth and has a core where none of the players have won/played a playoff series. You need to eventually make a push to have a good team now, rather then banking on draft picks to develop in a losing culture. While this is a risk, I have no problem taking it. I have absolutely no problem trading this pick because it sets us up for this team to start improving (slowly) in the win column. It, in my opinion, puts us in a better position for the future. I think it is wrong to say that this team should "build by the draft" in the next 5 years when we have drafted a large core of this years team(Demar, Ed, Jose, TR, Bargs, JV). It is time to start changing the culture from losing to winning, and that is something that is extremely valuable with a young core. That future pick does not change the culture for us.

    Sure there is always a risk in trading a pick, but in this case, it is a risk well worth taking.

    Oh and just to touch on your last point, the general agreement is that Terrence Ross was not going to be available at 12. There was tons of talk about Houston doing a deal like that with the Raptors, and as I said, I think it was smart for BC not to pursue that as a trade on Draft Night, because it secured that we would get Ross (which is the player Casey and BC wanted) and we ended up getting Lowry which sets up our immediate team nicely. Keeping that future pick and not getting the player we want at the draft with our current pick is something that I am not down for.
    Last edited by Red and White; Sun Jul 8th, 2012 at 05:45 PM.

  13. #93
    Raptors Republic All-Star Craiger's Avatar
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    the deal with this pick they traded is the Raps lose it when they will likely need it the most.

    It is basically lottery protected for Houston. So if the Raps make the playoffs the team keeps the pick. If they don't, Houston gets it. If it didn't have that top protection, I'd be less bothered by it (still not happy but more comfortable). But the way its structured the Raps lose their safety net. Plus its incentive for a GM (whether thats still Colangelo or another GM) to keep pushing for 'just making the playoffs' and getting stuck in that not bad but not great range.

    I won't say much more about Ross, but I don't believe that there was agreement Ross would be gone by 12. He was slotted anywhere from 14th to 29th in mocks. That doesn't mean he wouldn't have been gone by 12 or earlier, but Drummond, Lamb, Rivers, Marshall, Henson, Leonard and many more still on the board. I easily see him still available outside the lottery. I also don't believe BC necessarily wanted Ross. I think he wanted a wing, and they felt Ross was the best wing left on the board, but not necessarily what they wanted or even necessarily the best player available (ok more than I wanted to say about Ross)

    I like Lowry as a player but I would have prefered to see anyone on this team traded (not Jonas) for him instead of a lottery pick. And if a pick had to go I'd much rather it not be top protected. On top of that, Colangelo seems to be making the assumption that this is a playoff team. Last 3 times he did that the Raps ended up with 33 wins, 40 wins and 22 wins, and no playoffs.

    As for culture, its just a buzzword. Every losing team says that. A future pick can easily change the culture, depending on who that player is. And if thats really the worry, a guy like Lowry who was charged for assaulting a woman (and a ref at that) and forced his way off a team, I don't see as a positive change.

  14. #94
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    Quote Red and White wrote: View Post
    My mistake on the year of the pick.

    I understand what you are saying and I think you make a great argument, but I disagree with some of the things you are saying.

    I think the best way to build a team is with balance. How is a team supposed to become successful if you only make moves to secure the future, and never for the present (and to clarify, that one pick does not ruin the future-not to mention BC could acquire another one if necessary)? Holding on to a draft pick (a pick that is really only valuable when your team loses) at the cost of an established, young, budding player is silly. Worrying about this pick is silly to me. This Raptors team is stacked with youth and has a core where none of the players have won/played a playoff series. You need to eventually make a push to have a good team now, rather then banking on draft picks to develop in a losing culture. While this is a risk, I have no problem taking it. I have absolutely no problem trading this pick because it sets us up for this team to start improving (slowly) in the win column. It, in my opinion, puts us in a better position for the future. I think it is wrong to say that this team should "build by the draft" in the next 5 years when we have drafted a large core of this years team(Demar, Ed, Jose, TR, Bargs, JV). It is time to start changing the culture from losing to winning, and that is something that is extremely valuable with a young core. That future pick does not change the culture for us.

    Sure there is always a risk in trading a pick, but in this case, it is a risk well worth taking.

    Oh and just to touch on your last point, the general agreement is that Terrence Ross was not going to be available at 12. There was tons of talk about Houston doing a deal like that with the Raptors, and as I said, I think it was smart for BC not to pursue that as a trade on Draft Night, because it secured that we would get Ross (which is the player Casey and BC wanted) and we ended up getting Lowry which sets up our immediate team nicely. Keeping that future pick and not getting the player we want at the draft with our current pick is something that I am not down for.
    I concur 100% with all points you made.
    Very few teams have made it to upper echelons of NBA with draft alone (Only OKC comes to mind, but lets face it -a lot of luck was involved, as well as excellent scouting).
    Personally, trade for Lowry makes a lot of sense. I went on a Houston site -and by a huge majority their fans feel "screwed". IMO Lowry seems "ready" to lead a team.
    If we look at the way team improved (even in a very shortened pre-season), new players (JV, Ross, Lowry..), one has to feel "optimistic as a Raptor fan".

  15. #95
    Raptors Republic Starter theycallmeZZ's Avatar
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    Quote Mapko wrote: View Post
    Very few teams have made it to upper echelons of NBA with draft alone (Only OKC comes to mind, but lets face it -a lot of luck was involved, as well as excellent scouting).
    The Spurs came to mind first for me

  16. #96
    Raptors Republic Starter Pill's Avatar
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    Quote theycallmeZZ wrote: View Post
    The Spurs came to mind first for me
    The spurs are in a different league as far as talent evaluations are concerned. What they have been able to pull out of late rounds and second rounds is second to none in the history of this league. OKC just grabbed 3 guys within the top 5 picks a couple years in a row and they didn't turn out to be busts or injury prone. It was probably more dumb luck that everyone was putting Greg Oden in the hall of fame that year.

    But yeah, that is 2 teams in since the bulls did it. It happens 1x every 7 years or so. There are probably a lot of examples of also ran teams that were good but not great as well.
    Last edited by Pill; Mon Jul 9th, 2012 at 08:10 AM.

  17. #97
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    Quote theycallmeZZ wrote: View Post
    The Spurs came to mind first for me
    You are absolutely correct -Even more so as they did it mostly with late 1st rounders & 2nd rounders (which makes it even more impressive).

  18. #98
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Agree completely. I just worry that after letting Mayo walk, Memphis has lost any interest they may have had in trading him. There's actually an entire thread dedicated to Rudy Gay.... take a peek for more detailed discussion about him and the Raptors.
    IDEALLY Memphis would like to trade Randolph for Pau Gasol (not a lot of interest from LA), or Randolph period.
    Letting Mayo walk DOES NOT solve their cap issues. That (cap) might have been OK if the new owner came on board (I don't know what the status of that is now), but as it stands -they need to shed more in order to re-sign RFAs (at least some), backup PG.
    Back to Gay. Did you see what Hawks got for a solid all star (JJ)? Why? Clearly his contract. Now Rudy's deal is only SLIGHTLY better, but (IMHO) unless Jose & Amir are included with 1 more MINOR piece -no go, otherwise that contract (for a lesser player than Joe J) will come back to bite us.
    Simply put Rudy Gay is NOT good enough to justify 3 years & almost $54 mil.

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