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Sources ESPN: Jose Calderon wants trade (#68)

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  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Game. Set. Match. - lol


    Hopefully more open minded readers can gain possible insight whether they agree or not. It seems the lesson D12 and Melo have failed to learn may also be applicable in this situation.
    its interesting that a individual who has openly stated their very high support of BC in the past, argues with a list of logical fallacies (appeal to authority, anecdotal fallacy etc), and uses a double standard about who is right when the players and GMs use the media is hoping for 'open mindedness'.

    We have seen many times over the years the issues that come from these public proclomation by players and GMs. They can turn into media battles, then can become distractions and they can become bigger issues. To me it doesn't matter who starts it, neither side should be using a public forum for these issues. No matter how mild it may be. If Colangelo wants to talk about how Jose wasn't happy and wanted to be traded after the fact to explain the trade, by all means. But there is no reason to bring it up, especially when not even asked about it.

    And for the life of me I fail to see how we can use Dwight Howard and Carmelo Anthony as examples and proceed to say that its a good idea for GMs to do it. If anything they are prime examples of the problems with using the public forum for their internal issues, on both sides.

    And just for clarity, Jose's displeasure was brought up by Colangelo before Jose's agent addressed the media about it. He was questioned because of Colangelo's statement. Not the other way around.

    Comment


    • There is no advantage to BC publicly saying Jose was unhappy and wanted to be traded. It creates a sellers market and every team in the league will low ball us now...i.e. what we did for Lowry. I'd like to see proof BC jumped first because it first came to my attention that Jose was unhappy and would be seeking a trade though twitter and his agent.

      Dwight and Carmelo are the perfect example of using the media to engineer a trade to a specific team. It is a HORRIBLE way to do things.

      A GM saying Jose has asked us to be traded...is an acknowledgement of fact, with no attempt to create a media shit storm...

      I don't see how you don't see a difference here
      For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

      Comment


      • I do recall the media asking Casey directly how Jose felt after the Nash/Lowry frenzy. Casey had indicated that he called Jose directly and that he indicated he was not happy.. but indicated that a competitor like Jose should give an answer like that. And that he wasn't sure who would start between Jose and Lowry next year, but would like to have Jose be a part of the team.

        With regards to BC, I believe it was a similar line of questioning. BC is actually very careful with what he says to the media. It's actually super annoying. I don't believe Bryan said anything without having to answer a question from the media directly about it. And his answers were fairly obvious. Of course Jose would be unhappy. We just went out and targeted two PG's that would be replacing him as a starter.

        It was Jose's agent that indicated on twitter that Jose would like to be traded after the fact.

        At least that's what I remember from all the chaos that was free agency.

        Comment


        • Craiger wrote: View Post
          its interesting that a individual who has openly stated their very high support of BC in the past, argues with a list of logical fallacies (appeal to authority, anecdotal fallacy etc), and uses a double standard about who is right when the players and GMs use the media is hoping for 'open mindedness'.

          We have seen many times over the years the issues that come from these public proclomation by players and GMs. They can turn into media battles, then can become distractions and they can become bigger issues. To me it doesn't matter who starts it, neither side should be using a public forum for these issues. No matter how mild it may be. If Colangelo wants to talk about how Jose wasn't happy and wanted to be traded after the fact to explain the trade, by all means. But there is no reason to bring it up, especially when not even asked about it.

          And for the life of me I fail to see how we can use Dwight Howard and Carmelo Anthony as examples and proceed to say that its a good idea for GMs to do it. If anything they are prime examples of the problems with using the public forum for their internal issues, on both sides.

          And just for clarity, Jose's displeasure was brought up by Colangelo before Jose's agent addressed the media about it. He was questioned because of Colangelo's statement. Not the other way around.

          What is the double standard? Players and GM's are not equals in an organization, I'm sorry. Players are the employees and GM's are management (GM = General Manager) - and it just so happens BC is also president of basketball operations.


          BC brought it up because, and this is an assumption on my part, is because it is an issue that was going to be addressed and speculated on by media and fans. This is the 3rd time he has been through the starting PG controversy (Calderon/TJ, Calderon/Jack, now Calderon/Lowry) that were largely initiated by the media the first 2 go-rounds. Do you really think he has forgotten the previous 2 'controversies'?


          I apologize if my example of the Gifford's did not illustrate the problem that can arise when you take an issue that is going to be publicly known and speculated upon very soon and bullsh!t it. What was BC going to say: "Umm, yeah, Jose is loving the fact we have brought in a better and younger PG to play a style of basketball that is better suited to Kyle's abilities as well." How long would it have taken the media and fans to rip him a new one for the bullsh!t?


          Clearly, for the life of you, your preconceived notions are not allowing you to see the difference between what Carmelo/Dwight failed to do, what BC has done, what Calderon's agent has done, and what I am saying. Let me slow it down a bit:

          Carmelo & Dwight = games, gossip, rumour spreading; no public declarations of intent or desire; backlash from media/fans due to games/drama

          Colangelo & agent = telling the situation like it is; working together to find a amicable solution; honest/truthful statements to media; no backlash from media/fans (well except 1 fan it seems) due to no games/drama.


          As for who brought it up: who cares? Really. Forget I've supported BC in the past. Forget about other players current and former situations. The reality is both parties are looking for a clean break in a manner that works for all. Colangelo said nothing that discredited Jose as a person or a player. Calderon's agent said nothing that discredits BC or Toronto as a person/GM or franchise. Both parties have been honest about their intentions. In terms of trade value, BC has nothing to hide or trade value to protect because it is pretty clear there are now 2 starting calibre PGs on the roster and 1 of those PGs has been on the trade market for 3 years.


          The only drama I'm seeing in this situation is being created in this thread.

          Comment


          • RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
            Calderon is an expiring contract though, and they do need a capable big man off the bench behind K. Love, and James Johnson would back-up Batum.

            I could see them pulling this off, since they are in a win now mode, Calderon, JJ, and Ed D. could all be capable contributors off the bench for Minnesota. It works for Minnesota quite nicely if I may..

            Minnesota:
            PG - Ricky Rubio/Barea*/Calderon
            SG - Barea*/Johnson
            SF - Batum/Budinger/Johnson*
            PF - Love/Davis/Johnson*
            C - Pekovic

            Toronto:
            PG - Lowry/Ridnour/Uzoh
            SG - Derozan/Ross/Anderson
            SF - Fields/D. Williams/Kleiza
            PF - Bargnani/A. Johnson
            C - Valanciunas/Gray/Magloire
            Sorry maybe I wasn't being clear, it's a salary cap thing, not a player contract thing. Jose, Love, and Batum would be almost $40 million for just three players, no way the Wolves would pay that. It's exactly why they've amnestied Darko and waived Martell, they need all the space they can get just to be able to sign Batum. So I don't think they'd want to take back more salary at this time, I could be wrong, but I think that's their intention.

            Cheers
            i8theball.com it's a website...about, you know....basketball.

            Comment


            • In my opinion looking around the league the team I like the most as a trade partner is New Orleans.

              They will have a little bit of cap space if the numbers from ShamSports.com are correct.

              They will also have the $5.1M nonguaranteed contract of Brad Miller of which only $800k is guaranteed (he has already said he is retiring).

              Most importantly they have Greivis Vasquez as a great backup PG (and a decent starter).

              There has been talk of NO using Austin Rivers as a PG in the future. Does this mean they don't have confident in Vasquez long term? Vasquez's shot is not great from 3 and a PG with good shooting would likely be useful with a SG such as Eric Gordon who can handle, create, and dish. Using Rivers as first guard off the bench would allow him to develop some PG skills with Gordon and play to his scoring ability with Calderon.

              With Calderon's contract expiring, the Hornets will hit next seasons with the $13.7M hold from Lewis' contract and $10.5M from Jose's coming off the books.


              This is my perspective though. The Hornets may have made the Jack trade with every intention of making Vasquez their starting PG and might laugh hysterically at this trade idea. However NOH also lacks depth at PF/C with just Davis, Anderson, and Smith next season on the current roster and also at SF with just Aminu and Darius Miller. Maybe the inclusion Ed Davis or James Johnson (reunion with Aminu) could be incentive.

              Ignore the comment stating why the trade would fail, I think the machine needs to be updated.

              http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7nglly8

              Again, ignore comment, I think the Hornets would have enough cap space and outgoing salary to make. Raps could also send $$ to NOH. If Andersen's skills or history are a red flag, buy him out.

              http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=74yrfml
              Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Jul 14, 2012, 08:50 PM.

              Comment


              • Craiger wrote: View Post
                And just for clarity, Jose's displeasure was brought up by Colangelo before Jose's agent addressed the media about it. He was questioned because of Colangelo's statement. Not the other way around.
                No, it wasn't brought up by Colangelo, it was volunteered by Jose's agent almost immediately after the Lowry trade. You are mistaken on the timing.
                Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

                Comment


                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  I apologize if my example of the Gifford's did not illustrate the problem that can arise when you take an issue that is going to be publicly known and speculated upon very soon and bullsh!t it. What was BC going to say: "Umm, yeah, Jose is loving the fact we have brought in a better and younger PG to play a style of basketball that is better suited to Kyle's abilities as well." How long would it have taken the media and fans to rip him a new one for the bullsh!t?


                  Clearly, for the life of you, your preconceived notions are not allowing you to see the difference between what Carmelo/Dwight failed to do, what BC has done, what Calderon's agent has done, and what I am saying. Let me slow it down a bit:

                  Carmelo & Dwight = games, gossip, rumour spreading; no public declarations of intent or desire; backlash from media/fans due to games/drama

                  Colangelo & agent = telling the situation like it is; working together to find a amicable solution; honest/truthful statements to media; no backlash from media/fans (well except 1 fan it seems) due to no games/drama.


                  As for who brought it up: who cares? Really. Forget I've supported BC in the past. Forget about other players current and former situations. The reality is both parties are looking for a clean break in a manner that works for all. Colangelo said nothing that discredited Jose as a person or a player. Calderon's agent said nothing that discredits BC or Toronto as a person/GM or franchise. Both parties have been honest about their intentions. In terms of trade value, BC has nothing to hide or trade value to protect because it is pretty clear there are now 2 starting calibre PGs on the roster and 1 of those PGs has been on the trade market for 3 years.


                  The only drama I'm seeing in this situation is being created in this thread.
                  That's a little unfair to compare the 2 situations, because Carmelo and Dwight mean WAY more to their teams than Calderon does. If Dwight and Carmelo had played it low key and 'played the year out', there would still be mega stories about them and what would happen (see LeBron and Bosh). Carmelo and Dwight don't have the 'luxury' of having to be straight because no matter what they would do, there still would be a backlash. If Calderon had acted like Carmelo or Dwight, no one would really care.

                  And I also dispute your notion about players being 'employees' and GMs being more important. I think what happened in Orlando, where the owners did everything short of offering their firstborn to Howard and they fired their coach and GM, tells you that star players rule the league (as they should, they are the ones making money for the owners)

                  Comment


                  • jimmie wrote: View Post
                    No, it wasn't brought up by Colangelo, it was volunteered by Jose's agent almost immediately after the Lowry trade. You are mistaken on the timing.
                    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/81...-welcome-trade

                    That was reported Thursday July 12th.

                    Colangelo made the statement on Wednesday July 11th

                    http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog...-and-calderon/

                    I have yet to find anything prior to Colangelo's statement about Jose being unhappy or wanting a trade. Could you link it please.

                    Comment


                    • Craiger wrote: View Post
                      http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/81...-welcome-trade

                      That was reported Thursday July 12th.

                      Colangelo made the statement on Wednesday July 11th

                      http://blogs.thescore.com/raptorblog...-and-calderon/

                      I have yet to find anything prior to Colangelo's statement about Jose being unhappy or wanting a trade. Could you link it please.
                      Who cares? Let it go. The thread is about Calderon on the trading block, not the merits of public vs private trade requests. All that matters is that all signs point to Calderon's time in Toronto being done and wondering what the Raps might get in return. Enough of this 'he said, she said' crap.

                      The fact of the matter is that the writing's been on the wall ever since the very public failed trade with Charlotte two years ago. Since then there's been no secret that Calderon's days in Toronto were numbered. I would bet my left nut that every GM in the league already knew the situation long before either side (BC or Calderon's people) went public, and that's really all that matters. If you think any GM out there found out via public disclosure that Calderon was on the trade block, you're incredibly naive.

                      Therefore, this entire argument/debate is a completely moot point. Let it go... please!

                      Comment


                      • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        Who cares? Let it go. The thread is about Calderon on the trading block, not the merits of public vs private trade requests. All that matters is that all signs point to Calderon's time in Toronto being done and wondering what the Raps might get in return. Enough of this 'he said, she said' crap.

                        The fact of the matter is that the writing's been on the wall ever since the very public failed trade with Charlotte two years ago. Since then there's been no secret that Calderon's days in Toronto were numbered. I would bet my left nut that every GM in the league already knew the situation long before either side (BC or Calderon's people) went public, and that's really all that matters. If you think any GM out there found out via public disclosure that Calderon was on the trade block, you're incredibly naive.

                        Therefore, this entire argument/debate is a completely moot point. Let it go... please!
                        Agreed.

                        I may be echoing what others have already stated here but, despite my appreciation for Jose and all he's done, I say don't even bother moving him unless we can score a decent young backup PG in return. Sure, he wants to be traded but if I'm Bryan Colangelo and I've already tried moving him a million times over the past few seasons, I'd say eff it all- don't comply with the trade request unless we get a solid piece or two in return; None of this TPE bull and no getting nothing-players in return. Keep him as a backup at around 20-25 mpg (tough beans) until the trade deadline and maybe a decent trade option will pop up. He'll also make a killer back-up, by the way, potentially making us a lock for the playoffs. He's not the "locker room cancer" type; Jose's always been a pro and there's no doubt in my mind he'll show up to play, no matter what the circumstance.

                        Comment


                        • DirtyMikeSeaver wrote: View Post
                          That's a little unfair to compare the 2 situations, because Carmelo and Dwight mean WAY more to their teams than Calderon does. If Dwight and Carmelo had played it low key and 'played the year out', there would still be mega stories about them and what would happen (see LeBron and Bosh). Carmelo and Dwight don't have the 'luxury' of having to be straight because no matter what they would do, there still would be a backlash. If Calderon had acted like Carmelo or Dwight, no one would really care.

                          And I also dispute your notion about players being 'employees' and GMs being more important. I think what happened in Orlando, where the owners did everything short of offering their firstborn to Howard and they fired their coach and GM, tells you that star players rule the league (as they should, they are the ones making money for the owners)
                          See Carmelo and Bosh? I believe that was 2 other examples of players not publicly declaring intentions creating a circus. The difference with LBJ and Bosh was they had the right because they were unrestricted free agents. I do agree if Calderon acted like this, no one in the NBA community and fan base might not care but the Raptor community and fan would be livid.

                          I can live to agree to disagree with your opinion on the merits of star players ruling the league. However, I said nothing of GMs being more important, I said they were not equals (one word = big difference). GMs sign the contracts, make the trades, hire/fire coaches and staff, and sign the free agents. A big part of the problem in Orlando is they did not 'consult' or seek Dwight's approval over the years. The coach was essentially fired because he wanted out - remember the infamous interview with Dwight putting his arm around him? - and the GM was fired because he pulled a Titanic on the organization with a few trades that went really bad.

                          Comment


                          • Phil wrote: View Post
                            Agreed.

                            I may be echoing what others have already stated here but, despite my appreciation for Jose and all he's done, I say don't even bother moving him unless we can score a decent young backup PG in return. Sure, he wants to be traded but if I'm Bryan Colangelo and I've already tried moving him a million times over the past few seasons, I'd say eff it all- don't comply with the trade request unless we get a solid piece or two in return; None of this TPE bull and no getting nothing-players in return. Keep him as a backup at around 20-25 mpg (tough beans) until the trade deadline and maybe a decent trade option will pop up. He'll also make a killer back-up, by the way, potentially making us a lock for the playoffs. He's not the "locker room cancer" type; Jose's always been a pro and there's no doubt in my mind he'll show up to play, no matter what the circumstance.
                            +1 - Colangelo has essentially said this as well.

                            Vasquez would be a nice pick up if possible though.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              +1 - Colangelo has essentially said this as well.

                              Vasquez would be a nice pick up if possible though.



                              I would be OK with that as well, Jose's presence with the young Hornets team would be a good fit.
                              Twitter @WJ_FINDLAY

                              Comment


                              • No link, but now that Dallas has secured Elton Brand, things may heat up on the Jose front.
                                Twitter @WJ_FINDLAY

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